The Colossus Of The New World - a worldbuilding project

[Fox-Fire]

the flags are nice albeit a little low res

I coudl make them in vectors later. If I have time of course, but I'm sorry to say I make no promises.

plate colony flag

Gorgeous!

Back to the independence of South America. @Entrerriano To what agreements we have reached so far? I think these would be:

- Gran Colombia can't sustain itself nor grow larger.
- Perú and Upper Perú would take more time in being liberated, with them being able to hold themselves longer they would serve as a focus for the Royalists and try to delay the independence of the rest of the continent.
- Argentina would fracture (into what and how we still have to see).
- Britain will retain Buenos Aires and Uruguay, likely Entre Ríos and even part of Corrientes and Santa Fe.
- The British Empire would likely colonize part of Patagonia (and it would likely be less than Argentina did in OTL, the terrain later oculd be sold).
- Brazil wouldn't take Misiones Orientales or at least not get it until later in time.
- San Martín wouldn't be a factor.

To these points I would like to add that I think the independence of Chile and Colombia would be no later than in 1820, Ecuador, Venezuela and Paraguay no later than 1825 and Perú and Upper Perú no later than 1830.

Maybe, instead of trying to predict exactly what would happen, we could make some maps of the 1830s and decide to what we want to come to in terms of territories first and then decide what we should do to accomplish such results. In general I mean, not all the specific borders to a milimetre and such.

By the way, if you want to keep an even number of states in the US, I would recommend having Vancouver Island as a separate state. My reasoning for that is that, without San Francisco and the surrounding cities, the US would concentrate on making the equivalents of Vancouver and Seattle into larger ports earlier. Thus their importance would increase drawing a larger number of migrants, these people might create enough settlements in Vancouver Island to make it worthy of a state status when the territory where it laid would be reorganized into them.

 

[Višeslav]

That looks really nice. Would you mind telling me what basemap did you use?

This, well the world map that this is from but that's too big to post & I have things to do rn so I can't post it yet.

 

[Falkanner]

For South America, would anyone be interested in having Peru split into North and South Peru, possibly reunifying later on?

 

[Entrerriano]

Back to the independence of South America. @Entrerriano To what agreements we have reached so far? I think these would be:

- Gran Colombia can't sustain itself nor grow larger.
- Perú and Upper Perú would take more time in being liberated, with them being able to hold themselves longer they would serve as a focus for the Royalists and try to delay the independence of the rest of the continent.
- Argentina would fracture (into what and how we still have to see).
- Britain will retain Buenos Aires and Uruguay, likely Entre Ríos and even part of Corrientes and Santa Fe.
- The British Empire would likely colonize part of Patagonia (and it would likely be less than Argentina did in OTL, the terrain later oculd be sold).
- Brazil wouldn't take Misiones Orientales or at least not get it until later in time.
- San Martín wouldn't be a factor.

To these points I would like to add that I think the independence of Chile and Colombia would be no later than in 1820, Ecuador, Venezuela and Paraguay no later than 1825 and Perú and Upper Perú no later than 1830.

Maybe, instead of trying to predict exactly what would happen, we could make some maps of the 1830s and decide to what we want to come to in terms of territories first and then decide what we should do to accomplish such results. In general I mean, not all the specific borders to a milimetre and such.

I'm fine with all of that. I can make a map of *Argentina in the 1830's

 

[Fox-Fire]

For South America, would anyone be interested in having Peru split into North and South Peru, possibly reunifying later on?

It sounds as a pretty interesting proposition for me. I would try to move the capital of South Perú a little upwards though, to Arequipa instead of Tacna. Whatever the case, the creation of said division seems hard to archive without the Confederation of Perú-Bolivia, so I suggest that said country is formed For that I propose that Upper Perú and Perú come out of the independence wars as one country. Then said country fractures.

 

[Oliveia]

So, a big question that nobody seems to have asked:
What do we know about slavery in this USA?

 

[Višeslav]

So, a big question that nobody seems to have asked:
What do we know about slavery in this USA?

That is big. The way I see it, it's still practical for landowners in the south, where a lot of labour is needed for farming, so I expect that they'll want to keep it (especially considering the greater autonomy of the states, it might take longer to get the national-level abolition ball rolling). It's less useful in the OTL northern states, where the crops did not need to be harvested in huge amounts in a short window of time (the time to harvest cotton or tobacco is shorter than the time in which you can harvest wheat or corn) also, in coastal northern states the emphasis would be on shipbuilding (due to more lumber and the proximity of OTL Canada which was and still is more densely forested than the rest of North America) and maritime trade. Most of canada isn't great for farming and even the parts that are don't support the southern cash crops with short harvest periods and huge global demand, so slavery wouldn't be big there either (in the early days, OTL Rupert's land would still be largely dedicated to fur trapping and logging, while the OTL maritime provinces would be dedicated to trade and fishing. Due to the North having more of the early US's mineral resources like coal and iron, it would likely still industrialize faster than the south, further decreasing the usefulness of slaves, though the middle states are also fairly rich in minerals and less immigration could make slaves in factories a possibility (though generally OTL industrialization has pushed out slavery).

This means that the states that rely on slavery will be more or less the same ones as OTL, since the usefulness of slaves was largely determined by geography, and that doesn't change TTL.

If someone thinks I'm wrong, of course feel free to correct me.

 

[Višeslav]

One thing I was thinking about. TTL, Australia, New Zealand and Newfoundland are likely to have higher populations than OTL. This means Australia would probably have a state or two more than OTL. Where would you say those states are likely to be? I feel like OTL Queensland would probably be two states and maybe western Australia would be split or the Northern Territory would be a state.

For reference this is the population density in Australia OTL:

And this is an approximation of how it could look TTL

I apologize for the low quality, they're not graphics for the timeline, im just using these maps to make a point.

 

[Hominid]

One thing I was thinking about. TTL, Australia, New Zealand and Newfoundland are likely to have higher populations than OTL. This means Australia would probably have a state or two more than OTL. Where would you say those states are likely to be? I feel like OTL Queensland would probably be two states and maybe western Australia would be split or the Northern Territory would be a state.

For reference this is the population density in Australia OTL:

View attachment 486414

And this is an approximation of how it could look TTL

View attachment 486415

I apologize for the low quality, they're not graphics for the timeline, im just using these maps to make a point.

I can see NT being a state and an extra state between Queensland and NSW. More population does not necessarily equal more states though.

The borders should be quite different from OTL given the early POD.

 

[Višeslav]

I can see NT being a state and an extra state between Queensland and NSW. More population does not necessarily equal more states though.

The borders should be quite different from OTL given the early POD.

I use the OTL states as rough regions, but you're right.

 

[Fox-Fire]

Here's a map proposal for the state of South America around 1830.

Featuring:

- Many claims from all the sides.
- The Caribbean under British control (subject to change).
- A Gran Colombia Civil War that has just ended, leaving the former federation split in three with the British still ocupying Coro in the newborn Venezuela.
- The British unifying the Guayanas under their dominion.
- Perú having archived independence a few years ago is realizing that, despite its many internal disputes and the shadow of Royalism, that they are regional power in South America.
- Paraguay under the influence of Great Britain for protection against Brazil and trade agreements to try to offset their landlocked status.
- Argentina, capital Córdoba, as broken country and nation only very slightly held together by revanchism and due to collapse at any moment. In the capital everyone from any posture has its own ideas of how to reclaim Buenos Aires and soon the country will tear itself apart thanks to it, they can't even agree if they claim the Patagonia or not.
- The Republic of Entre Ríos, who jumped ship out of Argentina and tries to put their neighbours against each other to preserve its precarious position.
- Chile claiming as much as it can with Argentina distracted.
- Brazil flexing its diplomatic muscle to try and get as much of its claims as it can.

 

[Entrerriano]

- The Republic of Entre Ríos, who jumped ship out of Argentina and tries to put their neighbours against each other to preserve its precarious position.

B-but that's not even Entre Ríos
Gonna make my own map soon, although I agree on everything north of the Upper Peru

 

[Fox-Fire]

What about the situation in Europe? Should we have a partial Napoleonic victory, a defeat or a harsher peace than in OTL? I support the later of the three.

 

[mikroraptor]

What about the situation in Europe? Should we have a partial Napoleonic victory, a defeat or a harsher peace than in OTL? I support the later of the three.

This was my idea for Europe:
Poland-Lithuania has a successful Kosciuzcko uprising, which leads to an independent, slightly larger United Republic of Poland-Lithuania.
-The reason that the uprising succeeded is because Prussia sent its troops west, stopping Nappy's invasion of the HRE. I think that this might lead to a earlier unification of Germany, and maybe more conflict between Prussia and Austria.
napoleon stays In power in France until the late 1820s, when he is assassinated. The French empire retains its holdings in Italy, and Catalonia.
I wonder if the US ITTL would ally with Napoleon?

 

[Onerom]

The French empire retains its holdings in Italy, and Catalonia

If Napoleon managed to win the War of Spanish Independence ('War of Spain' ITTL I would suppose), I don't see why would he segregate the Catalonia from a kingdom he fully controls by way of his brother (unlike OTL, when allied advance threatened the theater), while if he didn't win he wouldn't be able to hold Catalonia against a hostile British-supported Spain and taking into account most of the local population depised the foreign occupation.

I think a Napoleonic Kingdom of Spain under Joseph Bonaparte could be an interesting option not usually explored in alternate history, and it could help the South American narrative by way of not wanting (aside from being more unable than OTL Spain) to reinstate metropolitan rule over Spanish America, fueling independentists and weakening royalists. I think I've proposed this before, but if not we could make the British expedition to South America in 1808 not be deviated to Iberia, due to the major involvement on South America, as the departing point for a French victory on the Peninsular War.

Thoughts?

 

[Hominid]

Proposal for abbreviations that I mostly made out of boredom.

States:

1. Alabama AB
2. Alaska AK
3. Arkansas AR
4. Assiniboia AS
5. Canada CA
6. Comancheria CM
7. Connecticut CT
8. Cheyenne CY
9. Chinook CK
10. Dakota DA
11. Delaware DE
12. Florida FL
13. Georgia GE
14. Illinois IL
15. Indiana IN
16. Iowa IO
17. Kansas KS
18. Kentucky KY
19. Laurentia LR
20. Louisiana LS
21. Maine MN
22. Manitoba MB
23. Maryland MD
24. Massachusetts MA
25. Michigan MC
26. Mississippi MS
27. Missouri MR
28. Nova Scotia NS
29. New Hampshire NH
30. New Jersey NJ
31. New York NY
32. Nimipu NI
33. North Carolina NC
34. Ohio OH
35. Okanogin OK
36. Ontario ON
37. Oregon OR
38. Pennsylvania PA
39. Platte PL
40. Rhode Island RI
41. Sabine SB
42. Saint Jean SJ
43. Saskatchewan SK
44. Sherman SM
45. Shoshone SH
46. South Carolina SC
47. Tennessee TE
48. Vermont VE
49. Virginia VI
50. Wisconsin WI

Territories:

1. Athabasca AT
2. Keewatin KW
3. Labrador LB
4. Nunatsiak NU
5. Ungava UN

Also I like the idea of a federal district. I think just calling it "Philadelphia" makes the most sense.

 

[Višeslav]

Proposal for abbreviations that I mostly made out of boredom.
Also I like the idea of a federal district. I think just calling it "Philadelphia" makes the most sense.

These look good & yes a federal district makes sense TTL. The states being even more autonomous than OTL definitely wouldn't want to be ruled from Pennsylvania. The Federal District of Philadelphia sounds about right to me. You got an abbreviation for that too? Maybe just PH or PD for Philadelphia or DP for District of Philadelphia.

Thanks for doing this. This is the sort of thing that is nice to have but that few people would think of doing and fewer would actually bother to work on.

 

[mikroraptor]

Q-BAM of 1820 or so (apologies for the antiquated basemap)
Note: the Netherlands are under Napoleon's brother, and the UKCA has a British puppet king. Poland-Lithuania is a Republic, heavily modeled on the American system. Prussia partitioned Luxembourg, and has a lot more influence in the west of Germany. Alsace-Lothringen is part of both France and the German Confederation.

 

[Fox-Fire]

I don't think that Poland would be able to survive with all of its neighbours against its existence even if guaranteed by other powers. Plus, that is a much, much weaker Poland-Lithuania than before and even if it was in a more glorious form it would be crushed. I don't think anyone would spend political capital in such a state, plus it would be vetoed by all of its neighbours. Prussia would never give up Silesia in the manner you portrayed. Posen/Poznan maybe, just maybe in exchange of a larger share of West Germany. Austria wouldn't go for a partition that didn't benefit them in terms of defending from the Russians in the Carpathians. Russia would never allow anything that could serve as a rallying cry for one of its many minorities.

EDIT: Here's a proposal of my own.

 

[Višeslav]

I don't think that Poland would be able to survive with all of its neighbours against its existence even if guaranteed by other powers. Plus, that is a much, much weaker Poland-Lithuania than before and even if it was in a more glorious form it would be crushed. I don't think anyone would spend political capital in such a state, plus it would be vetoed by all of its neighbours. Prussia would never give up Silesia in the manner you portrayed. Posen/Poznan maybe, just maybe in exchange of a larger share of West Germany. Austria wouldn't go for a partition that didn't benefit them in terms of defending from the Russians in the Carpathians. Russia would never allow anything that could serve as a rallying cry for one of its many minorities.

EDIT: Here's a proposal of my own.

View attachment 487215

While your map seems more plausible to me overall, I still have a couple questions. Are you going off of Mikroraptor's idea of Napoleon succeeding in western Europe but not getting past the HRE because if so, I don't see a reason for the major realignment of borders in Fennoscandia. OTL, the Swedes got Norway because the Danes had been strong supporters of Napoleon throughout the wars. Without him reorganizing Germany (thus gaining control over a region that borders Denmark) I doubt (though I may be wrong) that the Danes would be so inclined to support him. The Russian acquisition of Finland was a counterbalance to Sweden gaining Norway, so if one didn't happen the other isn't really likely. Hell, if Napoleon never took over Germany, the HRE might not end up disbanded (though it would still collapse soon, it might still be around right after the war). Now, if you're going off of a different starting point for the Napoleonic wars, this map would probably make more sense and I'd like to know how Europe got to look this way.