F5F or F4F. Did the U.S. Navy make the right choice?

The British did come up with a pretty good stop gap solution to protect the North Atlantic convoys. The Merchant Aircraft Carriers. However the British were about 2 years too slow in implementing it. Bear in mind that these MAC ships were still carrying full cargoes as well as functioning as modest escort carriers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_aircraft_carrier#
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A darling of mine is that the 3 remaining Hawkins Class Cruisers are converted to light fleet carriers during the 30s as Maritime Protection Carriers - with the intention that 1 is operational in the South Atlantic and one in the Indian Ocean (with the 3rd in refit etc)

I imagine that they would have been useful in the early years of WW2

Peg Leg Poms drawing of such a conversion

hms-vindictive-1918-aircraft-carrier-png.280469
 
One problem with the CCF Gregor Fighter was its dismal visibility. The upper gull wings were in exactly the wrong place for seeing where you are going while landing-on. The configuration is odd considering that Gregor had previously worked for Seversky??????
On the “Panic Fighter 1938” thread, Inproposed a monoplane Gregor Fighter specialized for landing-on escort carriers HMS Nabob and Puncher. With the RCNVR protecting Western Atlantic, it is logical for the RCN to have their own FAA.

Either way they would need to better fair the Gregor Fighters’ bubble canopy into the vertical fin. Full canopies and cockpit heat are mandatory for patrolling the North Atlantic ... and the more windows on the side or belly the better.
A monoplane would have an advantage in accumulating less airframe ice. The fewer struts and wires, the less ice.
Why did the RN FAA never adopt a STOL monoplane replacement for Swordfish?
In 1939, the only similar airplane British service was the STOL Westland Lysander. Lysanders proved too vulnerable to fly over Europe in daylight. Lysander would need a revised pitch/elevator trim system for go-around.
Perhaps 110 Squadron RCAF could have flown their Lysanders from Dartmouth and later from escort carriers.

That auto gyro suggestion is amusing. Even 1930s vintage autogiros could pre-rotate their main rotors for almost vertical takeoffs. With a 30 knot wind across the deck, they could land almost vertically.
Who cares if autogyros could carry torpedos or depth charges? The primary armament installed on convoy escort aircraft was their radios used to call in escort corvettes and dthe strikers to harass U-Boats.

Speaking of armament ..... how high did FW200 Condors patrol?
Would a “Shrage Musik” 20 mm cannon chase them off?
 
A darling of mine is that the 3 remaining Hawkins Class Cruisers are converted to light fleet carriers during the 30s as Maritime Protection Carriers - with the intention that 1 is operational in the South Atlantic and one in the Indian Ocean (with the 3rd in refit etc)

I imagine that they would have been useful in the early years of WW2

Peg Leg Poms drawing of such a conversion

hms-vindictive-1918-aircraft-carrier-png.280469

upload_2019-9-10_14-22-22.png
 

McPherson

Banned
One problem with the CCF Gregor Fighter was its dismal visibility. The upper gull wings were in exactly the wrong place for seeing where you are going while landing-on. The configuration is odd considering that Gregor had previously worked for Seversky??????
On the “Panic Fighter 1938” thread, Inproposed a monoplane Gregor Fighter specialized for landing-on escort carriers HMS Nabob and Puncher. With the RCNVR protecting Western Atlantic, it is logical for the RCN to have their own FAA.

AZ Canadian F4F.

Either way they would need to better fair the Gregor Fighters’ bubble canopy into the vertical fin. Full canopies and cockpit heat are mandatory for patrolling the North Atlantic ... and the more windows on the side or belly the better.

Add a rear view mirror. I notice it does not have one.

A monoplane would have an advantage in accumulating less airframe ice. The fewer struts and wires, the less ice. Why did the RN FAA never adopt a STOL monoplane replacement for Swordfish?

The Albacore used the wrong wing chord plan and was underpowered.

In 1939, the only similar airplane British service was the STOL Westland Lysander. Lysanders proved too vulnerable to fly over Europe in daylight. Lysander would need a revised pitch/elevator trim system for go-around.

Westland-Lysander-Shuttleworth-2009.jpg


Lysander MARK iii

General characteristics

Crew: One, pilot
Capacity: 1 passenger (or observer)
Length: 30 ft 6 in (9.29 m)
Wingspan: 50 ft 0 in (15.24 m)
Height: 14 ft 6 in (4.42 m)
Wing area: 260 ft² (24.2 m²)
Empty weight: 4,365 lb (1,984 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 6,330 lb (2,877 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × Bristol Mercury XX radial engine, 870 hp (649 kW)

Performance

Maximum speed: 212 mph (184 knots, 341 km/h) at 5,000 ft (1,520 m)
Range: 600 miles (522 nmi, 966 km)
Service ceiling: 21,500 ft (6,550 m)
Climb to 10,000 ft (3,050 m): 8 min
Take-off run to 50 ft (15 m): 305 yards (279 m)

Armament

Guns: Two forward-firing .303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns in wheel fairings and two more for the observer
Bombs: Four 20 lb (9 kg) bombs under rear fuselage and 500 lb (227 kg) of bombs on stub wings if fitted.
Perhaps 110 Squadron RCAF could have flown their Lysanders from Dartmouth and later from escort carriers.

Actually, not a bad idea for a MAC as long as you hardstand it with no strike below requirement!

That auto gyro suggestion is amusing. Even 1930s vintage autogiros could pre-rotate their main rotors for almost vertical takeoffs. With a 30 knot wind across the deck, they could land almost vertically.

Who cares if autogyros could carry torpedoes or depth charges? The primary armament installed on convoy escort aircraft was their radios used to call in escort corvettes and the other strikers to harass U-Boats.

Speaking of armament ..... how high did FW200 Condors patrol?
Would a “Shrage Musik” 20 mm cannon chase them off?

bellmodel30.jpg


The stupid: etc...

FW Condors would patrol below the North Atlantic cloud layer, about 3000-5000 meters altitude and look for convoy wakes.

Just low enough to be easy prey for Hudsons. And fragile to go into the drink if a pair of .303 Brownings from the Hudson ventilated the cockpit or a wing spar inboard the outer engine nacelle.
 
[snip]...since the IJN completely boloed the Japanese ASW campaign, necessitating the IJA to apply some common sense to the problem.

Just how good were these cargo subs? I've never seen any reports on their use, how much/what supplies they carried, etc.

I know the Italians also were building supply subs but IIRC none were launched prior to the surrender in 1943.
 
FW Condors would patrol below the North Atlantic cloud layer, about 3000-5000 meters altitude and look for convoy wakes.

Just low enough to be easy prey for Hudsons. And fragile to go into the drink if a pair of .303 Brownings from the Hudson ventilated the cockpit or a wing spar inboard the outer engine nacelle.

Hudson 1 - Condor Nil

(Caption reads: A Focke-Wulf Fw 200C of KG 40 sinking in the Atlantic Ocean west of Ireland, after being shot down by a Lockheed Hudson Mk V of No. 233 Squadron RAF 23 July 1941)

Focke-Wulf_Fw_200_Kondor_sinking_%28July_23_1941%29.png


Of the 9 'combat' CAM Hurricane launches - .303 armed Hurricanes shot down among other aircraft 4 Condors

Eric 'Winkle' Brown famously shot down 2 of them in a Martlet (silly name) / Wildcat when operating from HMS Audacity by performing head on attacks into the Condors defensive blind spot

So I do not think that a 'Shrange muisik' (SP? I don't speak German) style armament is required - the condor was a civilian design pressed into service as a LRMPA and 'doesn't react well to bullets'
 
So I do not think that a 'Shrange muisik' (SP? I don't speak German) style armament is required - the condor was a civilian design pressed into service as a LRMPA and 'doesn't react well to bullets'
Or rough landings apparently. From what I've read they lost more from that sort of thing than combat. Not that there were all that many out over the Atlantic supporting the Navy to start with. Goering didn't approve.
 
Getting back a little closer to the original topic, should the RN have opted for the proposed twin engine Bristol 153a (designed for the same spec as the Whirlwind), an aircraft very similar to the Grumman F5F instead of the Fulmar?
 

McPherson

Banned
Getting back a little closer to the original topic, should the RN have opted for the proposed twin engine Bristol 153a (designed for the same spec as the Whirlwind), an aircraft very similar to the Grumman F5F instead of the Fulmar?

We've discussed the pros and cons as a naval type. I can see that if it was a non-starter for the USN, then with the more cramped British CVs it might not have seemed a good idea either.

As for the Fulmar, I have seen pros and cons argued about it. My opinion and your mileage should vary, is that it was a good bird when in the right time and place. That was not against the IJN ever. However it did excellent work in the Mediterranean and should not be discounted ever for the results it achieved there.

I think it was an excellent recon bird and would have functioned well in the strike coordinator and guid-on role. The use of it as a fighter was probably a mistake in the Indian Ocean.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
I would think the biggest drawback with the F5F Skyrocket was the carrier air groups would have had to conduct operations with a smaller number of fighters because the F5F would need more deck space even though the outer wing panels did fold back over the engines. And of course they would require more maintenance hours and parts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F4F_Wildcat
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So, was this a squandered opportunity for an earlier advantage in the Pacific War or a costly mistake avoided?

Costly mistake avoided.

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_F4F_wildcat_stats.html

According to the above source, Grumman alone produced roughly 1500 F4Fs of various models between 1940 and 1943, before the GM FM version went into production in 1943. Simply based on the engines, the production total for the F5F in the same period would have been 750, and that's without any delays because of the complexity of a twin-engined aircraft ... which suggests the USN and USMC would have needed to keep the F2A in service longer just to keep numbers up ... which means even fewer F2As for the British, Dutch, etc., and no F4Fs for the RN at all.

Quantity has a quality all of its own, after all.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
Whats to keep Grumman from expanding their factories, or bringing in GM sooner?

Peacetime procurement, even in a short of war period (1940-41), is going to be limited. Licensing designs is not a simple process, either.

The F5F is an intriguing design, but it was not simple and in fact probably pushed the envelope. It's worth remembering that the USN and USMC had frontline fighter squadrons equipped with F2As as late as 1941-42; F5F procurement would not have improved that situation.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
It got real simple in WWII You built what the government told you, unless you had a far better product.
That's how N.A.A, avoided being a subcontractor making P-40s

Actually, the P-51 came about as a result of a BPC request, not the US War Department, so not quite...

Most importantly, in the window of 1939-41, when the XF4F-3 was standardized and went into production as F4F-3, trading as solid a design as the Wildcat for a design (the XF5F-1) that would need even more development time and production resources would have been a huge mistake.
 
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