I don’t think she’s loathsome. She just hasn’t time for the nonsense that people go on with to justify the poor decisions they make. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. I think she should be pitied. I suspect that her brash facade is armour against a very deep wound/personal tragedy.
Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread II
- Thread starter Peabody-Martini
- Start date
I don’t think she’s loathsome. She just hasn’t time for the nonsense that people go on with to justify the poor decisions they make. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. I think she should be pitied. I suspect that her brash facade is armour against a very deep wound/personal tragedy.
FBKampfer
Banned
With all PM's neurotic, almost psychotic at times, women running around, Berg is actually pretty justified. Even her views on men are understandable given that she invariably sees the worst of the results.
But with Kat as much as announcing "I'm back on my bullshit" every other year, her screwing up Kiki's ability to care for herself, and all the associated headaches, now Zella's bullshit, and all of the associated helicopter parenting and idiocy involved?
She's earned every right to do exactly as she pleases with her more self-centered patients.
To be fair to the women of this timeline they are much harder on themselves then others are.
Remember we are seeing things from their perceptions and they are unreliable narrators.
Dr. Berg just want the women in her care not just take responsibility for their actions but also understand that there some things that are beyond their control and not their fault.
Some of it I would call it the "Kat Effect" but also no matter how far Germany is more advanced in women rights ITTL the culture is still more conservative then it is right now IOTL and that has some bearing on this story.
Remember we are seeing things from their perceptions and they are unreliable narrators.
Dr. Berg just want the women in her care not just take responsibility for their actions but also understand that there some things that are beyond their control and not their fault.
Some of it I would call it the "Kat Effect" but also no matter how far Germany is more advanced in women rights ITTL the culture is still more conservative then it is right now IOTL and that has some bearing on this story.
Its the paradoxical situation of a conservative culture coming to terms with Women in Germany having reached a level of rights that pretty much its the ENVY of the whole world. The Women's culture on Germany its possibly having a bit of a Cultural Whiplash, as they are NOW coming to terms with what they have won, and redefining their role in the current society of the 60's
Its 1962, and the German Empire has Women in combat and command roles as an ACCEPTED fact, and its another one of the factors that irks the Americans, as the rest of the world sees Germany as the forerunners, the World Power that its marking the path to the future, in economy, government, human rights, and many other fields, while the Americans are being seen as isolationists.
The Girlfriend of Jonny, i suspect that it will play a role in the future chapters....Gloria was possibly torn if if break or not with Jonny.....but now she won't ever find it, as he's returning to home in a coffin, all because the government that she served, saw fit to send him into a mess that America shouldn't have got into........
If you remember, one of the strongest motivations for spying, its Revenge. After losing Jonny, the second blow after her unwilling ternure as guinea pig for MX-ULTRA.....Do you seriously think that Gloria won't have a grudge of the size of Alaska against her Government?
Another thing to think about.
Its 1962. The US is getting into a war they are pretty much unprepared for, against what looks to be a massive multi-national alliance. And now coffins are coming home.
Add this to the fact that the 1960 election was a shistorm, so Harriman is unpopular.
Can you imagine what 1964 is going to be like.
Its 1962. The US is getting into a war they are pretty much unprepared for, against what looks to be a massive multi-national alliance. And now coffins are coming home.
Add this to the fact that the 1960 election was a shistorm, so Harriman is unpopular.
Can you imagine what 1964 is going to be like.
The reason for women in Germany ITTL having more rights and playing a more prominent role in society not because there was a burst of enlightenment but because of necessity.
ITTL Germany while suffering a much lower loss of males in ITTL WW II compared to OTL it still was a significant percentage of the population and only by keeping women still active and involved in the economy could Germany still maintain it position and grow it self.
This is also why Germany is more accepting of immigrants because they need the population growth in order to increase the GDP.
ITTL Germany while suffering a much lower loss of males in ITTL WW II compared to OTL it still was a significant percentage of the population and only by keeping women still active and involved in the economy could Germany still maintain it position and grow it self.
This is also why Germany is more accepting of immigrants because they need the population growth in order to increase the GDP.
To quote the Duke of Wellington:
"Believe me, nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won"
I am very sure its going to be a Republican win anyway.
16 years of Democrats, and an unpopular Administration and an unpopular war....if the Dems won, like, Wow.
FBKampfer
Banned
Militarily the US seems pretty up to scratch so far.
The Chinese AF (presumably flying US aircraft) has apparently made a good showing of itself, and sans the battleships, US missile batteries were keeping the coast clear. They even managed to damage one (and its very much an open question whether or not a modern AShM would even damage an Iowa's turret).
Additionally it depends. US forces haven't entered theater in force. If US armor breaks the stalemate, the war may actually have something of a unifying effect.
Yes, and I worry which leftist stereotype of Republican we will get, Cartoonishly Evil or Cartoonishly Incompetent. Dewey was being set up as Trump analog until it was pointed out how progressive he was, then he was rewritten to be simply incompetent. The Bushes (Prescott and GHW) , a little of column A, a little of column B. Well, whatever we get probably won't matter. 12 years of democrat rule, 4 years of Republican, then 16 more of democrat means the civil service will be filled with enemies of any future republican so resistance to any change is baked in.
COnsidering that the US seems to have not done well intelligence wise, But then again a lot of that is Chaing just being Chaing.
And casualties dead bodies returning home matter more than victories....
And the unifying effect can work just as well, in the other direction and unify the other party to win victory.
Having said that, yes this TL is incredibly pro-german, but even like you, at times, Ithink they need to be stalled a bit. So some US victories could be a good thing. As far as I am concerned, it about time they caught up, tbh.
Depends on who is around.
Maybe Barry Goldwater will try again. as will Rockefeller and Stassen. Hell, there is no Nixon, hell this TL could use Tricky-Dick I think. Its hard to tell who the nominees would be this time, its not in-depth with the US as much.
Curiously, @Peabody-Martini what are the rest of the Kennedy's up too exactly?
I mean, I assume that Joe jr is still around, as is RFK and Ted. I mean if JFK is doing his thing away from the family, I am curious as to see what the rest of the family is actually up too in this ATL.
A military victory by America would then lead to either leaving Korea under Chinese occupation or occupying it themselves. Either one would pretty much require sending in reports to describe the "great victory". Once pictures and reports from the troops start coming back, probably involving being pelted with rotten fish guts if they're lucky, America will have to face up to them being a colonist power, hated by the Koreans and that the official justification for the war being horseshit.
Pretty sure we got that out of Harriman's speech.,
We are stopping Monarchies from committing colonialism by ensuring that our Chinese allies (who are completely democratic, by the way
) can committ colonialism.Pretty sure we got that out of Harriman's speech.,
We are stopping Monarchies from committing colonialism by ensuring that our Chinese allies (who are completely democratic, by the way
I have to be honest here, the whole Korea arc seems horribly contrived. Why Korea? Sinkiang, Mongolia and Outer Manchuria (the Russian occupied part) seem to be better targets than Korea. Why would America support Chinese aggression in this war when America has NEVER sided with the aggressor in any war since its founding*?
What this arc needed was a setup view from the Chinese seat about 20 chapters ago. The situation needed more than a vague pokemon reference "China uses saber rattling to quell internal unrest, it was somewhat effective".
*note
1775- America was the aggressor technically (though taxation was the provocation)
1812 - America was the aggressor technically (though impressment was the provocation)
1846 - America was the defender (the Mexicans crossed the disputed border and attacked Fort Texas)
1861 - civil wars dont count
1898 - America was clearly the aggressor, it didn't side with one though
1914 - America joined after provocation
193? (Spain) - private individuals, not the American government
194? (USSR/Japan) - arms sales only, then joined the Allies
195? (South Africa) - private individual (that nefarious Bush)
195? (Mexico) - private individual (that nefarious Bush)
196? (Korea) - arms sales only (so far) and it should stay that way
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I wouldn't call her loathsome either. She honestly strikes me as more of a no-nonsense schoolmarm type. Full of herself, absolutely. But then, I've never met a doctor that wasn't, and I worked in a hospital for 5 years.
Doubtful. You might jam it if you get lucky, and you would annoy those within, but short of striking right on the embrasure, I would say no. Anti-shipping missiles just aren't designed to defeat armor like that.
Ego is necessary in Doctors and Fighter Pilots. They can not afford self doubt.
The only known American death so far is Jonny but I would not be surprised that the Chinese missile battery that was destroyed had a couple of Americans as technical advisors.
The 1962 mid terms should be interesting in that I think that both parties are going to split on geographical and ideological lines.
The Democrats may embrace a "Langist" type economic policy as the natural outgrowth of the New Deal in the north while the southern Democrats to all out on segregation.
For the Republicans it is going to be a choice between Rockefeller Republicans or Goldwaterites and in the South the state's Republicans have to decide whether to become "Lilly Whites" and go even further then the southern Democrats on the issue of Civil Rights of go for a collation of business, middle class whites and African Americans that sees the way things are now are not working and only by a gradual increase in civil rights will there be the economic prosperity in the South that the rest of the Americans are experiencing right now.
Part 95, Chapter 1485
Chapter One Thousand Four Hundred Eighty-Five
10th April 1962
Mitte, Berlin
Staring at her drink, Zella was reminded of just how naïve she had been. It was her usual, soda water with a twist of lime. Or at least the half-melted ice floating at the bottom of a mostly empty glass that had contained that drink. No matter what drink was ordered for her, this was what the bartender made. It was because of stupid tricks like this one that she had thought that she was so smart. Doctor Berg told her the truth, she had been taken advantage of and she wasn’t the only woman that he had done it to. When Zella had asked what would possess a man to engage in that sort of sabotage, Berg had said that other than being a manipulative, abusive prick she didn’t have the faintest idea. It was enough to make her want to throw the glass against the nearest wall.
“Whatever you are thinking of doing, don’t” John said from behind the bar, “I don’t want to clean up the mess.”
“Did you ever want to see someone dead?” Zella asked, “I don’t mean run over by a car dead. I mean the torn apart by rabid dogs, that sort of dead.”
“I plead the Fifth” John replied.
“The what?” Zella asked.
“The Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution” John replied, “It says you cannot be forced to incriminate yourself.”
“Oh” Zella said, turning back to her drink. Another silly joke and one that she should have gotten. “You know about this sort of thing?”
John just smiled and there something about the look in his eyes that was unsettling. It occurred to Zella that despite having known John Elis for years, she didn’t know very much about him. At least not what he had done before he had opened the V8 Club in Mitte.
“I was a bit wild when I was a young man” John said, “The U.S. Navy couldn’t straighten me out, so I spent some time in a different sort of State Institution. So yes, I understand what being that angry with someone is like.”
“Excuse me?” Zella asked, somewhat surprised by the implications. “How would you even be allowed to travel? I would have thought that Berlin…”
“I cut a deal with your Government for services only I could provide” John said, “And your Old Man was one of the ones enforcing the terms before he retired.”
“I had no idea” Zella said at a loss, “I’m sorry, I can leave…”
“Don’t bother” John said as he refilled Zella’s glass, “I like you even if your father is a son of a bitch. At least he isn’t Johann Schultz, he was a man who deserved to be ripped apart.”
Zella remembered Schultz, later she had learned that he was a high-ranking Officer in the BND. A rarity like an American in Berlin these days would inevitably have had an encounter. There were other things about the club that Zella had long thought were merely eccentricities of the owner. Most notable was the top of a crate labeled Imperial Shipping AG, Berlin-Kiel-Wilhelmshaven nailed to the wall between the door to the office and the door to the Gents. Zella had never been able learn the explanation…
“A bit of free advice that is worth exactly what you paid for it” John said as he put a fresh drink in front of Zella, “Before you go find a pack of rabid dogs, go tell the Skel’s wife. It will have the same affect.”
“I didn’t tell you what happened” Zella replied.
“There are only a few things that can make a girl like you that angry” John said, “All of them tend to be caused by the same thing.”
Zella hid her annoyance at once again being predictable. John’s advice was good though, she might just need to look into doing it.
Geneva, Switzerland
After the latest missive from Washington, Adlai Stevenson was starting to wonder what they were smoking. This entire thing with China had hubris written all over it. Word that several Americans had been killed over the previous days in the Korean conflict had reached official Washington and they were demanding answers.
While the roots of the conflict were laid twenty years earlier in how the European Powers had pursued the Pacific War, the Chinese wouldn’t be nearly as bold without the systems and equipment that Washington had been licensing to them. Generalissimo Chiang Kai-Shek wouldn’t be attempting to get revenge for what he dubbed a Century of Humiliation. The only thing they saw in Washington was dollar signs. It didn’t matter who won or lost in China because the longer the war went on the more equipment would be needed.
It was Stevenson’s job as Ambassador to the League of Nations to somehow providing a rational justification of the policy. It wasn’t easy.
“The Germans and their Korean friends are pressing a slanted version of events” Stevenson heard one of his Aides say, “Historically, the United States has not supported aggressive war.”
The ignorance of that comment was profound. If anyone from south of the Rio Grande heard that then they would laugh their heads off. The Banana Wars proved that profoundly wrong. That might also set off the Chinese who had conveniently forgotten American involvement in China over the previous century for as long as it suited them.
10th April 1962
Mitte, Berlin
Staring at her drink, Zella was reminded of just how naïve she had been. It was her usual, soda water with a twist of lime. Or at least the half-melted ice floating at the bottom of a mostly empty glass that had contained that drink. No matter what drink was ordered for her, this was what the bartender made. It was because of stupid tricks like this one that she had thought that she was so smart. Doctor Berg told her the truth, she had been taken advantage of and she wasn’t the only woman that he had done it to. When Zella had asked what would possess a man to engage in that sort of sabotage, Berg had said that other than being a manipulative, abusive prick she didn’t have the faintest idea. It was enough to make her want to throw the glass against the nearest wall.
“Whatever you are thinking of doing, don’t” John said from behind the bar, “I don’t want to clean up the mess.”
“Did you ever want to see someone dead?” Zella asked, “I don’t mean run over by a car dead. I mean the torn apart by rabid dogs, that sort of dead.”
“I plead the Fifth” John replied.
“The what?” Zella asked.
“The Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution” John replied, “It says you cannot be forced to incriminate yourself.”
“Oh” Zella said, turning back to her drink. Another silly joke and one that she should have gotten. “You know about this sort of thing?”
John just smiled and there something about the look in his eyes that was unsettling. It occurred to Zella that despite having known John Elis for years, she didn’t know very much about him. At least not what he had done before he had opened the V8 Club in Mitte.
“I was a bit wild when I was a young man” John said, “The U.S. Navy couldn’t straighten me out, so I spent some time in a different sort of State Institution. So yes, I understand what being that angry with someone is like.”
“Excuse me?” Zella asked, somewhat surprised by the implications. “How would you even be allowed to travel? I would have thought that Berlin…”
“I cut a deal with your Government for services only I could provide” John said, “And your Old Man was one of the ones enforcing the terms before he retired.”
“I had no idea” Zella said at a loss, “I’m sorry, I can leave…”
“Don’t bother” John said as he refilled Zella’s glass, “I like you even if your father is a son of a bitch. At least he isn’t Johann Schultz, he was a man who deserved to be ripped apart.”
Zella remembered Schultz, later she had learned that he was a high-ranking Officer in the BND. A rarity like an American in Berlin these days would inevitably have had an encounter. There were other things about the club that Zella had long thought were merely eccentricities of the owner. Most notable was the top of a crate labeled Imperial Shipping AG, Berlin-Kiel-Wilhelmshaven nailed to the wall between the door to the office and the door to the Gents. Zella had never been able learn the explanation…
“A bit of free advice that is worth exactly what you paid for it” John said as he put a fresh drink in front of Zella, “Before you go find a pack of rabid dogs, go tell the Skel’s wife. It will have the same affect.”
“I didn’t tell you what happened” Zella replied.
“There are only a few things that can make a girl like you that angry” John said, “All of them tend to be caused by the same thing.”
Zella hid her annoyance at once again being predictable. John’s advice was good though, she might just need to look into doing it.
Geneva, Switzerland
After the latest missive from Washington, Adlai Stevenson was starting to wonder what they were smoking. This entire thing with China had hubris written all over it. Word that several Americans had been killed over the previous days in the Korean conflict had reached official Washington and they were demanding answers.
While the roots of the conflict were laid twenty years earlier in how the European Powers had pursued the Pacific War, the Chinese wouldn’t be nearly as bold without the systems and equipment that Washington had been licensing to them. Generalissimo Chiang Kai-Shek wouldn’t be attempting to get revenge for what he dubbed a Century of Humiliation. The only thing they saw in Washington was dollar signs. It didn’t matter who won or lost in China because the longer the war went on the more equipment would be needed.
It was Stevenson’s job as Ambassador to the League of Nations to somehow providing a rational justification of the policy. It wasn’t easy.
“The Germans and their Korean friends are pressing a slanted version of events” Stevenson heard one of his Aides say, “Historically, the United States has not supported aggressive war.”
The ignorance of that comment was profound. If anyone from south of the Rio Grande heard that then they would laugh their heads off. The Banana Wars proved that profoundly wrong. That might also set off the Chinese who had conveniently forgotten American involvement in China over the previous century for as long as it suited them.
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That last paragraph... I love it! How are American history books like in this TL? Truth or very slanted truth in what Americans would like to have happened, in where they are saints and everyone is the devil?