Die Alte Welt Hat Überlebt- A Central Powers Victory Collaborative Timeline

[Pragmatic Progressive]

Why is Russia split in three? Also, why is China balkanized?

Russia is divided after World War II, into a Czarist, a Red and a Democratic (blue) nation.

Also, why is China balkanized?

During the civil war after the fall of Qing, then there followed a warlord period, and Red Japan used the opportunity to divide China up into fellow communist nations.

Of course we can debate whether Russia should be three nations, or more or less, and we can debate how and in how many parts China shall be spit. However, I do plan to have a Libertarian Socialist (orange) China and an Agrarian-Syndicalist (Pink) China.

 

[Deleted member 107125]

@KaiserEmu I think we should let you work on Australia.
So on the 16th my exams begin, and after that I'm going on vacation, so you might not see me as frequently. Do you mind working on this yourselves? I will drop in occasionally!

 

[Thanosaekk]

Russia is divided after World War II, into a Czarist, a Red and a Democratic (blue) nation.

I am sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. Why would any of the powers fighting Russia even consider partitioning Russia? Maybe if it was based on some regional identity (which is still barely existent across the country), then it could work. But, here, it is partitioned ideologically, between three movements that would probably be near extinct after decades of fascist rule, and their areas do not correspond to where they were popular.

During the civil war after the fall of Qing, then there followed a warlord period, and Red Japan used the opportunity to divide China up into fellow communist nations.

Of course we can debate whether Russia should be three nations, or more or less, and we can debate how and in how many parts China shall be spit. However, I do plan to have a Libertarian Socialist (orange) China and an Agrarian-Syndicalist (Pink) China.

I get Japan splitting China a bit, although the borders and entities should be reworked and all the ideologies should be similar to Japan's. Also, why does a far-left Japan maintain Korea, Taiwan and several parts of the Chinese coast?

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

Here something on football. This is the ranking of leagues by the EFV (Europäischer Fußball-Verband) used to determine who gets how many spots in pan-European competition. The first five nations in this ranking get the maximum of five spots each in the Großer Europäischer Pokal (lit.: Great European Cup/Cup of Europe - TTLs analogue of the Champions League) and in the EFV-Pokal (UEFA cup analogue).

Ligabewertung des EFV - Saison 2019/20:
League Ranking by EFV - Season 2019/20:

1. Germany (Erste Reichsliga)
2. France (Ligue Rouge)
3. Ottoman Empire (Devletin Lig)
4. United Kingdom (Professional Football League/PFL)
5. Baltoslavic Union (Lyga A)
6. Portugal (Liga Primeira)
7. Italy (Serie A)
8. Spain (Primera División)

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

I am sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. Why would any of the powers fighting Russia even consider partitioning Russia? Maybe if it was based on some regional identity (which is still barely existent across the country), then it could work. But, here, it is partitioned ideologically, between three movements that would probably be near extinct after decades of fascist rule, and their areas do not correspond to where they were popular.

You must have misunderstood something. Fascist rule went from 1938/9 to the end of World War II, so there were no decades of fasicst rule. Also, the partition and defeat of Russia starts due to revolutions. However, you could well be right that a communist Russia is more likely to (re)form in the West and a democratic Russian nation in the East. We will consider that.

I get Japan splitting China a bit, although the borders and entities should be reworked and all the ideologies should be similar to Japan's. Also, why does a far-left Japan maintain Korea, Taiwan and several parts of the Chinese coast?

Why should all the borders and entities be redone? What is the problem there?

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

What do you, @Thanosaekk , suggest for Russia? A united communist Russia? What do you think?

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

I wouldn't say my standards on consensus are too high. What I've been saying is that if we do a poll, a majority should support something before it becomes canon, otherwise there should be a general consensus in discussion before something is considered to be canon. I don't see that as unreasonable.

Of course this is not unreasonable, in fact it is very reasonable. Regarding East Australia, we could of course hold another poll whether it shall be far-left or libertarian democratic. But discussion does not seem to go against a far-left East Australia.

Which borders were - at least in my opinion - voted on you can see on the last map I posted.

 

[Thanosaekk]

Ah, sorry, I must have missed the rise of the fascists to power in Russia. For post-war Russia, I think by far the most likely option would be either be a united democratic one (probably with other countries taking as many pieces as possible) or even a really rump fascist state that eventually reforms. As for China, the current borders just seem ... weird. I have some suggestions to make on how to rework them.

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

As for China, the current borders just seem ... weird. I have some suggestions to make on how to rework them.

I am eager to see your suggestions here! China was one of the areas which I made rather on the spur of the moment, without a real idea or something. In China, I really could use help.

For post-war Russia, I think by far the most likely option would be either be a united democratic one (probably with other countries taking as many pieces as possible)

Thanks for some constructive contribution here!

Regarding Russia, could you imagine a democratic Russia and a Far East Republic which is red? Or would an united Red Russia be more pllausible than that?

A "rump fascist state" already exists on the Kola Peninsula.

So on the 16th my exams begin, and after that I'm going on vacation, so you might not see me as frequently. Do you mind working on this yourselves? I will drop in occasionally!

Of course I'll continue to contribute here!

 

[Thanosaekk]

I am eager to see your suggestions here! China was one of the areas which I made rather on the spur of the moment, without a real idea or something. In China, I really could use he

If China has to be split between several states, then my suggestions would be: a Manchurian state, Inner Mongolia annexed to Mongolia (since they seem to be leaning left as well), some sort of Central Chinese state, and a southern Chinese state with much different borders. So all in all roughly similar, but more logical. Also, are Yunnan and Guangdong not in the Japanese sphere?

Thanks for some constructive contribution here!

Regarding Russia, could you imagine a democratic Russia and a Far East Republic which is red? Or would an united Red Russia be more pllausible than that?

Communism would be unlikely to rise after they lost the civil war. As I said, a very rump democratic state makes more sense.

A "rump fascist state" already exists on the Kola Peninsula.

Uh... this cannot happen under any circumstance. Why would anyone let the fascists continue surviving there, especially when an intervention/invasion is a piece of cake?

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

a Manchurian state, Inner Mongolia annexed to Mongolia (since they seem to be leaning left as well), some sort of Central Chinese state, and a southern Chinese state with much different borders. So all in all roughly similar, but more logical.

What would the best border between North and South China be?

Also, are Yunnan and Guangdong not in the Japanese sphere?

Guangdong most certainly is.

Communism would be unlikely to rise after they lost the civil war.

They lost only one civil war, and that to a democratic republic. There was a USSR for five years. Nevertheless, Soviet-type Communism would indeed be unlikely.
What about a democratic form of communism? Syndicalism or Trałkaist-type socialism (like in the Eternal Conflict mapgame)?

And I do still think that "western" Russia and the Far East should be separate. Why do you think that unlikely?
And: Should we hold a poll on it?

Uh... this cannot happen under any circumstance. Why would anyone let the fascists continue surviving there, especially when an intervention/invasion is a piece of cake?

I thought of a military junta remnant of the fascists, not the ideological fascist government itself. But maybe that is more likely in Siberia...

 

[KaiserEmu]

I've been putting together some of my ideas for the Asia-Pacific, and I can't help but think that it's a lot more likely for China to be the superpower in East Asia, not Japan. Firstly, Japan has either

a) lost a significant war, or
b) undergone a violent revolution and civil war​

and it seems to me as though Japan's influence would be drastically curtailed after any such event. Meanwhile, China seems to be more united, with (from the only idea I've seen so far) a German-backed empire pitted against the Kuomintang in the 1920s. What would people think about having a mostly united China replace Japan as the primary great power of East Asia, with Japan either as an allied but subordinate member of the East Asian sphere, or potentially as 'the rebel', diplomatically isolated?

 

[Thanosaekk]

I've been putting together some of my ideas for the Asia-Pacific, and I can't help but think that it's a lot more likely for China to be the superpower in East Asia, not Japan. Firstly, Japan has either

a) lost a significant war, or
b) undergone a violent revolution and civil war​

and it seems to me as though Japan's influence would be drastically curtailed after any such event. Meanwhile, China seems to be more united, with (from the only idea I've seen so far) a German-backed empire pitted against the Kuomintang in the 1920s. What would people think about having a mostly united China replace Japan as the primary great power of East Asia, with Japan either as an allied but subordinate member of the East Asian sphere, or potentially as 'the rebel', diplomatically isolated?

I agree with this.

 

[mikroraptor]

I've been putting together some of my ideas for the Asia-Pacific, and I can't help but think that it's a lot more likely for China to be the superpower in East Asia, not Japan. Firstly, Japan has either

a) lost a significant war, or
b) undergone a violent revolution and civil war​

and it seems to me as though Japan's influence would be drastically curtailed after any such event. Meanwhile, China seems to be more united, with (from the only idea I've seen so far) a German-backed empire pitted against the Kuomintang in the 1920s. What would people think about having a mostly united China replace Japan as the primary great power of East Asia, with Japan either as an allied but subordinate member of the East Asian sphere, or potentially as 'the rebel', diplomatically isolated?

That's somewhat similar to what I was planning on doing with postwar China, I like it

 

[Deleted member 107125]

Here something on football. This is the ranking of leagues by the EFV (Europäischer Fußball-Verband) used to determine who gets how many spots in pan-European competition. The first five nations in this ranking get the maximum of five spots each in the Großer Europäischer Pokal (lit.: Great European Cup/Cup of Europe - TTLs analogue of the Champions League) and in the EFV-Pokal (UEFA cup analogue).

Ligabewertung des EFV - Saison 2019/20:
League Ranking by EFV - Season 2019/20:

1. Germany (Erste Reichsliga)
2. France (Ligue Rouge)
3. Ottoman Empire (Devletin Lig)
4. United Kingdom (Professional Football League/PFL)
5. Baltoslavic Union (Lyga A)
6. Portugal (Liga Primeira)
7. Italy (Serie A)
8. Spain (Primera División)

I like that we're expanding on culture!

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

What would people think about having a mostly united China replace Japan as the primary great power of East Asia,

Why mostly united? Xinjiang and Tibet being independent would already weaken China, or?

But de facto, China and Japan would probably be about equal in power, or China more powerful.

I just liked the idea of a Red Co-Prosperity Sphere, I admit it, without looking towards plausibility much.

As long as Red China isn't as insane mass-murdering Maoist as in OTL, we can work with a Red Sinosphere, too. Maybe Japan is the insane member of it?

 

[KaiserEmu]

I agree with this.

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

That's somewhat similar to what I was planning on doing with postwar China, I like it

Thanks. A lot of it was based of your China map, so it's good to know we see it going a similar way.

Why mostly united? Xinjiang and Tibet being independent would already weaken China, or?

My idea of "mostly united" meant pretty much everything except Xinjiang and Tibet, maybe also Inner Mongolia.

But de facto, China and Japan would probably be about equal in power, or China more powerful.

If China is united and not scarred by two decades of conflict as IOTL, it would definitely be more powerful than Japan by the present day, given that that's now happened in OTL, and Japan hasn't undergone violent, destabilising conflict.

As long as Red China isn't as insane mass-murdering Maoist as in OTL, we can work with a Red Sinosphere, too. Maybe Japan is the insane member of it?

I wasn't thinking it would be explicitly red as such. Working off mikoraptor's map, I would see the KMT taking and holding power, although without a conflict with the CCP, I wouldn't see them moving to the right, and instead could see them adhere more closely to Sun Yat-sen's vision, potentially seeing them become a centre-left social democratic party of government by the modern day, with China leading an Asia-Pacific alliance of generally democratic but left-of-centre states, possibly each developing their own form of a more general left-wing nationalism that holds the bloc together.

My idea for Japan in this context would see an emperor more under the sway of the military and far right authorise an invasion of China, which fails moreso than in OTL. With Japanese troops out of China and Korea, a blockade is enforced on Japan (because the Chinese government is fearful of the casualties a Downfall analogue would entail) in tandem with regular bombings, resulting in some uprisings in various places (if you really want it, even a short-lived anarchist commune or two). As the Japanese government's authority begins to crumble, China launches an invasion of the Home Islands that goes down as one of the most costly offensives ever fought, but resulting in the occupation of Japan, the dethroning of the emperor and the establishment of a democratic republic under significant Chinese sway.

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

That's a completely new vision there, @KaiserEmu . Interesting, but where should we then get a democratic red bloc from?

My idea of "mostly united" meant pretty much everything except Xinjiang and Tibet, maybe also Inner Mongolia.

My idea was more a Red China without Xinjiang, Tibet and Manchuria. But we'll see. Maybe we will also end up with only France as a red bloc, togehter with some nations in West Africa?

 

[KaiserEmu]

That's a completely new vision there, @KaiserEmu . Interesting, but where should we then get a democratic red bloc from?

I wouldn't say it's a completely new vision, merely an extrapolation of current ideas in a direction that, to me at least, makes more sense. I don't understand the question about the 'democratic red bloc'.

My idea was more a Red China without Xinjiang, Tibet and Manchuria. But we'll see. Maybe we will also end up with only France as a red bloc, togehter with some nations in West Africa?

I find it hard to see how Manchuria would be independent in such a scenario. Although by now, does there have to be a 'red bloc' per se at all?

This is a rough proposal of my ideas for Australia and Asia combined.

Notes:

• China is a democratic, dominant-party republic and the main power in East Asia.
• Korea is China’s closest ally and the most prosperous East Asian nation after the nationalists won the Korean Civil War (with a lot of Chinese support).
• Japan is also fairly prosperous, although its international influence has never quite recovered since the middle of last century.
• The Dalnivostok Republic (using the transliterated name for the Far Eastern Republic) is a small, Chinese-allied state that otherwise is not very notable at all, its independence from Russia only maintained by Chinese men and Chinese money.
• The State of Tsingtau has the highest GDP per capita in Asia, although it suffers from high inequality. The legacy of almost a century of German control, Tsingtau’s unique Sino-Germanic culture meant it was uncomfortable joining China and instead sought independence, although it remains closely tied to Germany.
• Indonesia is united as a single republic, much in the vein of China, to the extent it even copies its governmental system, although it approaches it less democratically. Following independence from the Netherlands, the nation of Indonesia embarked on a number of wars in which it united all of OTL Timor, Malaya, Sarawak, Brunei, Borneo and West Papua under its control.
• The Republic of New Guinea is another state closely allied to Germany, and it has been since their independence.
• The Australian Republic is a parliamentary democracy, although Labor is seen as the natural party of government, partly because of the immense influence wielded by the unions.
• Western Australia could be the libertarian democracy proposed before if we really want it, although I have had another idea that I’d like feedback on, seen below.
• If we take this idea, the Dominion of Ulimaroa won its independence via referendum as Western Australia in 1933, although the modern country is quite different. Following the rise of Proactivism in Britain, many opponents of the new regime fled abroad, and while those of the more left-wing persuasion set out for elsewhere, many British conservatives and moderates left for WA, including a large proportion of the nobility. Now seeing itself as the legitimate heir to the British Empire, Ulimaroa (the name is an archaic name for Australia, resurrected ITTL to develop a more independent identity from the ‘godless commies’ out east) is now a hybrid fusion of British tradition and outback freedom. Thanks to its mineral wealth, it is quite rich, and the Ulimaroan House of Lords is a mixture of old money British nobility, new money mining magnates who ensure taxes stay low, and the political class, who at least has the decency to not be openly corrupt.

Thoughts? I’ve tried to reach a compromise between various ideas, while also trying to bring some desperately needed originality to this genre. Thus we have the idea of a lefty bloc in East Asia, while also keeping in mind other proposals to determine which are the great powers. Australia is much more left-wing than OTL, while also not adopting borderline impossibilities like an overtly Communist Australia. Germany retains some influence in Asia, and Australia is split in a not totally implausible manner, with interesting yet logical political systems that don’t resort to radicalism just because. I think this could work quite well.

 

[Pragmatic Progressive]

Why do you think a united Russia is more plausible than a divided one, by the way? And yours even includes Central Asia... why that, @KaiserEmu ?

The State of Tsingtau has the highest GDP per capita in Asia, although it suffers from high inequality. The legacy of almost a century of German control, Tsingtau’s unique Sino-Germanic culture meant it was uncomfortable joining China and instead sought independence, although it remains closely tied to Germany.

Why this and not a part of Germany directly?

China is a democratic, dominant-party republic and the main power in East Asia.

How democratic do you mean here? An authoritarian democracy like Russia?

Although by now, does there have to be a 'red bloc' per se at all?

I would like to see such a red bloc, and until now, we thought of East Asia as the best place for one. Where would you see a good opportunity except for France?

Indonesia is united as a single republic, much in the vein of China, to the extent it even copies its governmental system, although it approaches it less democratically. Following independence from the Netherlands, the nation of Indonesia embarked on a number of wars in which it united all of OTL Timor, Malaya, Sarawak, Brunei, Borneo and West Papua under its control.

Why do you want to unite everything, though? I don't believe in a united Russia, and neither do I think united Indonesia (or India, but I'll leave that to @Hindustani Person ) is a good idea. I really don't think your ideas to be that original. What is "original" about KMT China and (authoritarian) democracy everywhere?

Thoughts? I’ve tried to reach a compromise between various ideas, while also trying to bring some desperately needed originality to this genre. Thus we have the idea of a lefty bloc in East Asia, while also keeping in mind other proposals to determine which are the great powers. Australia is much more left-wing than OTL, while also not adopting borderline impossibilities like an overtly Communist Australia. Germany retains some influence in Asia, and Australia is split in a not totally implausible manner, with interesting yet logical political systems that don’t resort to radicalism just because. I think this could work quite well.

There you can see why I think your plausibility standards for here are too high. I do find the Ulimaroa idea interesting, but now that we have a reformed UK (instead of a still Proactive one), I don't think we need Ulimaroa.
I don't know much about Australia to be honest, but I do think we have now destroyed important parts of this timeline. We can revamp many things, but for my Germany thing to work, we at least need a left-wing Japan (which you would say this is - I don't know?) to be an "ally" of Germany.

What should we go for if we want German influence in Asia to be the most? That was one of my ideas behind the Red Bloc, too.