Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread II

[holyknight]

I think that if Germany and Korea delivers a massive defeat to China then the press is going to call the leadership of the Germans “The von Mischner Gang” because you have Kat and Hans being the head of major forces, there is Kurt who wife is a friend of Kat and Tilo who is married to Nancy also a friend of Kat, also having Nancy putting on her diplomat hat is a very good use of her.

It would be certainly ironical if Nancy manages the Diplomatic coup of not only enable the Japanese to aid in Korea, but in fact, triggers the birth of what amounts to an Asian Common Protection Treaty, basically an Asian OTAN.

After all, while the Koreans would be obviously fearful of Japanese troops, they would be greatly placated if these Japanese troops were part of an Asia/Oceania multinational Corps, with Vietnamese, Asian and even Indian, ANZAC and Nepalese Ghurkas.....

Moreover, it would be the strongest signal that the US rhetoric is nothing but BS, as Asian Nations work alongside former Colonies of European Nations, for the sake of the independence of a fellow Asian Country.....

 

[ejpsan]

Tilo had ordered that every Marine, regardless of specialty, drop what they were doing and grab a rifle.

Thus is borne the legend of Tilo Schultz “Where every Marine is a rifleman”.
This will give the Marine Infantry a special place in the history of Korea on how a handful of the worst soldiers in the world held off an overwhelming force or died trying to buy time for a counter-offensive.

 

[FickleCrossroad]

I think that if Germany and Korea delivers a massive defeat to China then the press is going to call the leadership of the Germans “The von Mischner Gang” because you have Kat and Hans being the head of major forces, there is Kurt who wife is a friend of Kat and Tilo who is married to Nancy also a friend of Kat, also having Nancy putting on her diplomat hat is a very good use of her.

I am salivating at the idea of a real world Kat-Hans battle teamwork. Adding a perceptive leader like Tilo, I bet a burrito I am going to be smiling ear to ear reading that update.

I've been too distracted by my reread, is Stefan involved here?

Also, would Emil be getting a call for a "Courier Edition" version of a motorcycle? With Zella wanting to try it out, perhaps earlier interest in motorcross?

 

[Salamander]

I am salivating at the idea of a real world Kat-Hans battle teamwork. Adding a perceptive leader like Tilo, I bet a burrito I am going to be smiling ear to ear reading that update.

I've been too distracted by my reread, is Stefan involved here?

Also, would Emil be getting a call for a "Courier Edition" version of a motorcycle? With Zella wanting to try it out, perhaps earlier interest in motorcross?

I'm picturing a post-war scenario where a Chinese general is quoted as saying "We were so focused on what General Hans von Mischner was doing that we overlooked what General Kat von Mischner was doing."

 

[Theoretical_TJ]

Gladys Aylward would be a very interesting POV character given her OTL history and the messy China we have here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladys_Aylward

 

[Peabody-Martini]

Chapter One Thousand Four Hundred Seventy-Nine


24th March 1962

Near Tongrim, Korea

For five nightmarish days the 3rd MID had held the ridge, but as the Koreans had been forced back their position south of Tongrim had grown untenable. They were short of everything that Tilo could think of and he had been informed that fresh supplies were being redirected to Sonchon, where the 3rd MID had been ordered to fall back to take up a fresh defensive position. A storm was rolling in off the ocean, so once it started raining, they would have the perfect cover for their retreat. The Navy was going to shell the Chinese positions, but it had turned out the Destroyers of the Pacific Fleet were vulnerable to rockets fired from the shore, so they were conducting hit and fade attacks. That meant that whatever distraction they would provide wouldn’t be for long.

“Spread the word that we are going to be falling back in a few hours” Tilo said to the Regimental Commanders in the dugout that he was using as a Command Post as he concluded telling them the plan, “The men are to leave whatever parting gifts for our Chinese friends that they think are appropriate.”

That got him a round of laughter from the gathered men before they left a few at a time. As Tilo left the dugout himself, he noticed that three of the men he had pulled from the brig fell into step with him. He had noticed that the obedience that they had begrudged him after he had sprung them was gone. Now, a few of them always accompanied him as he went up and down the lines. When asked, they had said it was because he had stepped up to the line and none of the Brass that they had been with in the past had ever done such a thing. It was entirely because of one instance, when a section the lines had looked like it was about to be overrun, Tilo had grabbed whoever was available and reinforced it. That had included him on the fire step at one point, though he had not actually fired his weapon.

Stepping into a different dugout, he saw Reier standing there with one of his nephews, Karl Dunkel, as he tried to get Karl to eat something. Five days in Hell and Tilo was very aware of how it was not coming without cost. One of the casualties had been Erik Garver. Because they had been inseparable for their entire lives, Karl was completely lost without his cousin. Tilo had simply not had the time to figure out just how bad Erik had gotten hurt or even if he was still alive. He just knew that Erik had been evacuated and Karl wasn’t doing well. Sticking him with Reier had been the best he could do at the moment.

Tilo knew that no matter how this turned out his sisters were unlikely to forgive him for this.


25th March 1962

It had turned out that the German Marines had abandoned their positions overnight. Jonny had tried to warn the Chinese General that they should not be in any rush to take the ridge. He hadn’t been listened to and the result was a blood-soaked mess. Landmines, trip mines as well as traps of every description and there were even rumors that the Krauts had hidden explosives inside the corpses of their own dead. Touch them and they go boom. One would be hard pressed to think of a greater insult directed at the Chinese. As Jonny watched, a Chinese Private was brought down the hill with a wooden stake driven through his foot. He was one of the lucky ones. Just minutes earlier a half dozen men had been carried down after a Bouncing Betty had gone off and sliced their legs out from under them. A clever trick that the Krauts had come up with, a landmine that is set on a timer. The guy who steps on it starts the countdown, so rather than getting that one guy it could get several.


Pusan, Korea

Since they had arrived in Korea, they were once again waiting to see where they would go next.

The mail had caught up with them though and to Kiki’s surprise she had gotten a package and several letters. The package was from Kat’s Aunt Marcella containing several items that she thought Kiki might find useful. A deck of cards, chocolate bars, socks and a small sewing kit. There was a letter from her father that mostly told her to be careful and wished her well. There was photograph of her father with Charlotte and Nella. Then a letter from Zella and Aurora wishing her well and letting her know how much they missed her. A letter from Doctor Berg asking if she was taking care of herself. Kiki would need to write a letter back to Berg letting her know that she was taking care of herself and that she knew she wasn’t pregnant. That last part was particularly annoying. Finally, there was a letter from Ben, and he had only written one sentence; You never did get a chance to see the photographs. With love, Benjamin. Included was a photograph of Ben behind the controls of an airplane as he had been learning to fly.

When Kiki saw that, she couldn’t help but blushing a bit at the memory. That had been the reason she had been going with Ben up to his flat in the first place and she had completely forgotten about it.

 

[weasel_airlift]

There's always a page from China's own playbook: While falling back, the Germans make sure to leave assorted stuff behind, and at one point leave colors to be found. In the classic Chinese trap, when you pick up the colors, the mine underneath goes boom. In this case, picking them up would start a timer to explosives in the flagpole (Not much, I know, but plastic explosive, a little goes a long way) set for an hour or so, hoping it gets carted back to Chinese HQ

 

[holyknight]

WHY i suspect that the German strategy with Hans and Kat will be to further retreat slowly, goading the Chinese to overextend, then once enough forces are in, the KSK will cut the bridges between China and Korea, at the same time that the Korean/League forces will go on the offensive?

 

[FBKampfer]

WHY i suspect that the German strategy with Hans and Kat will be to further retreat slowly, goading the Chinese to overextend, then once enough forces are in, the KSK will cut the bridges between China and Korea, at the same time that the Korean/League forces will go on the offensive?

The problem is that the Chinese have so many men, they can create an insane front density. Any counter-offensive is going to have a hell of a hard time finding anything resembling a flank, even once it "breaks through" it's just going to run into fresh Chinese divisions that were earmarked to replace units that would inevitably have been rendered combat ineffective by their own offensive.

Especially in Korea, it's going to be a bitch to use the maneuver warfare the Germans are equipped and trained for. This is a straight up, no-holds-barred slugging match.

 

[Rinasoir]

This is a straight up, no-holds-barred slugging match.

And it is China's fight to lose.

The only thing, outside of other international involvement, that could take down China in this fight is internal political pressure. Considering Mao, who was in a very weak position during OTL Korea, was able to shrug off the horrific loses they experienced, Shek might not even have to worry about that.

 

[ejpsan]

The problem for the Chinese Army is that they may be the largest army in the world but as for their quality goes it is rapidly deteriorating as their casualties mount and the Luftwaffe may be starting to make a dent with an indirection campaign that is starving the Chinese of needed supplies and reinforcements.
At a certain point in time the Chinese can no longer keep throwing units in to the meat grinder without taking them from other areas of concern, such as the disputed border regions of Vietnam, Russia, and India, let us not forget about the potential for civil unrest in the cities.

 

[FickleCrossroad]

Tilo is making his daddy proud.

 

[A. Morgan]

Tilo is making his daddy proud.

And pissing his brother off!

 

[holyknight]

The problem for the Chinese Army is that they may be the largest army in the world but as for their quality goes it is rapidly deteriorating as their casualties mount and the Luftwaffe may be starting to make a dent with an indirection campaign that is starving the Chinese of needed supplies and reinforcements.
At a certain point in time the Chinese can no longer keep throwing units in to the meat grinder without taking them from other areas of concern, such as the disputed border regions of Vietnam, Russia, and India, let us not forget about the potential for civil unrest in the cities.

The worse is that unlike OTL Korea, the German Forces in this case WERE exposed before to the style of Human Waves and to try to overwhelm them with Numbers, a tactic that the Soviets used QUITE a bit during this rendition of WWII.

As such, while the Germans do run the risk of being overwhelmed, they also know DAMN WELL by the book HOW you have to weather , then break such style of combat, Hans Von Mischner specially, as he fought the whole damn WWII in the Eastern Front then the Asian Front.

So expect the Germans soon to start using even MORE of such tactics to demoralize the Chinese.... Cluster Bombs, Napalm and Thermobaric bombs...... It may not be exactly humanitarian, but when you are outnumbered over 10:1 the only thing that matters is to keep as many of your soldiers alive after each skirmish........

More than likely,some of the Boomer units of the KLM with conventional Thermobaric Warheads will be awaiting the KSK to "mark" those bridges with radio beacons in order to program their cruiser or SLBM to blow those bridges to kingdom come..

 

[ejpsan]

More than likely,some of the Boomer units of the KLM with conventional Thermobaric Warheads will be awaiting the KSK to "mark" those bridges with radio beacons in order to program their cruiser or SLBM to blow those bridges to kingdom come..

I like the way you are thinking...

 

[FBKampfer]

The problem for the Chinese Army is that they may be the largest army in the world but as for their quality goes it is rapidly deteriorating as their casualties mount and the Luftwaffe may be starting to make a dent with an indirection campaign that is starving the Chinese of needed supplies and reinforcements.
At a certain point in time the Chinese can no longer keep throwing units in to the meat grinder without taking them from other areas of concern, such as the disputed border regions of Vietnam, Russia, and India, let us not forget about the potential for civil unrest in the cities.

I think you underestimate just how many men China has. Even at a 10:1 casualty ratio (and bear in mind that IOTL WWII the best they managed in combat was roughly 6:1 against the Soviets.) Germany just can't politically sustain that.

Even 500,000 dead is going to be a tough sell, for which you've only killed 5 million Chinese soldiers, or less than 0.0075% percent of the Chinese population.



Additionally the Himalayas are virtually impassable. India is a complete nonfactor.

Vietnam has a relatively small land border, as does Russia if Mongolia is independent ITTL (can't remember).

Best case scenario is China gets to funnel about half its army to Korea.

 

[ferdi254]

But the 6:1 was against trained soldiers with at least roughly equally equipment.

The Chinese have no defense against thermobaric bombs, the training and leadership are abysmal and if you suddenly start throwing untrained peasants with not much more than riflles against fully trained troops with tanks and planes...

Even today IOTL the Chinese army is mot 10 mio men.

And afaik there have been no tactical nukes been used so far ITTL...

 

[ejpsan]

The border between China and Russia is 4,209.3 kilometers or 2,615.5 miles which is kind of a long amount in my mind.
IOTL China and India fought each other in a border dispute in 1962.
IOTL China and Vietnam fought in a border dispute in 1979.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Finally, there was a letter from Ben, and he had only written one sentence; You never did a chance to see the photographs. With love, Benjamin. Included was a photograph of Ben behind the controls of an airplane as he had been learning to fly.

When Kiki saw that, she couldn’t help but blushing a bit at the memory. That had been the reason she had been going with Ben up to his flat in the first place and she had completely forgotten about it.

Ben is in love, Kiki could be as well, she just really does not want to be.

Jonny

How old is Jonny an his buddies compared to Kiki? Because I could totally see the whole opposites attract thing here happen in the middle of a warzone...

 

[Loki-L]

I think the problem may very well be that while the Chinese forces use bad tactics and inferior hardware they still have enough people to make it work.

There is a limited amount of Korean territory that can be given up in order to buy time and in exchange for Chinese dead. The Koreans may end up running out of land before the Chinese run out of bodies.

At the moment Tilo is still very popular with the Koreans. It will take a lot of PR effort to keep it this way as more and more land is given up to the advancing Chinese.

So far naval power seems to have been of only limited use, but we haven't seen much in the way of airpower yet. That should soon show up in some way.

At least for now it seems the fighting hasn't touched much in the way of cvillian population yet so there haven't been any massacares or instances of guerilla warfare. Hopefully that will stay that way.