The Colossus Of The New World - a worldbuilding project
- Thread starter Višeslav
- Start date
Well, it depends on if we do the stalemate, as I suggested, or the total victory scenario. If it's a stalemate, then I can see Germany uniting quicker, either under Prussia or the Rhinebund. If Poland survives, it might have friendly relations with America, and Russia might be more anti-US. Italy might be a battleground between British backed and French backed proxies. Ireland might have a larger uprising in the 1800s, but I doubt it would succeed.
Please, please, please let's do something else than a Total Victory or a Victory. I'm tired of Napoleonic Victory Maps and the fact that after Napoleon they go into the fiction of the borders being maintained up to the present day.
I was thinking the same thing, and that's why I suggested a stalemate. I don't think that's a common scenario, so it might be Interesting
Under a stalemate, you'd definitely see the House of Bonaparte making concessions to the territories they own. My proposals:
1. Re-instate the House of Bourbon in Spain
2. Give Catalonia to Spain or be independent
3. Grant Dutch independence (probably under Louis I Bonaparte -- who was immensely popular in the Netherlands)
4. Back off from the Confederation of the Rhine
1. Re-instate the House of Bourbon in Spain
2. Give Catalonia to Spain or be independent
3. Grant Dutch independence (probably under Louis I Bonaparte -- who was immensely popular in the Netherlands)
4. Back off from the Confederation of the Rhine
How much? I don't think they would go with a treaty as harsh as in OTL, however, the lands I said before seem like the most likely course of action. I imagine a peace deal with a line drawn on the 37° Parallel North (around the Latitude of Santa Cruz in California) extending eastwards until touching their previous border would be a good peace deal.
I wouldn't have suggested it if it wasn't a good idea. A think the harder bargain would be for the possession of the Strait of Magallanes. However, I can see the British easily giving it up once they have the technology to start building, or even planning, a Canal in either Panamá or Nicaragua. Since they have to Moskito Coast that isn't such an stretch, plus, a more stable Central America under the UKCA would be richer and more developed and therefore a much better prospect for building a canal... Or even you could have someone build a canal in Panamá and then the British racing to build another in Nicaragua.
You know what? I'm all for that last idea.
Great! What do you think about this: a sperate peace between the Powers, no Wien Conference. In General my proposal would be:
1.- France wins in:
- Spain: Not too convinced on this, but instead of having the entire Peninsula as a vassal they could retain Catalunya.
- Italy: They retain their holdings in Northwestern Lombardy and Naples, maybe in Tuscany too. They could all be linked together too. Eastern Lombardy and the Veneto could serve as a buffer between them and Austria, with both nations having to cede some terrain to the former Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia.
- Switzerland: The confederation is no more, split betweent the Rhine Confed. and France, maybe they could have some lands going to the Italian buffer.
- The Southern Netherlands: They get Belgium and maybe northwards up to the Rhine, with the remaining Netherlands being independent. They don't get Luxembourg.
2.- France loses in:
- Germany: They are stopped and pushed out of the Rhineland completely. Maybe they could even lose some territory in exchange for having their other gains recognized. A bitter pillow to swallow, but an intersting point for further history to be developed. Nobody was satisfied with the peace deal.
- Austria: They survive and might have lost some territory but nothing in Austria itself (such when they lost Tyrol and Voralberg to Bavaria). They might have to cede some parts of their coast ot the Italian buffer.
- Russia: Self-explainatory.
- Poland: Poland migth exist as a state but I don't think they'll return to their Commonwelath size under any circumstances, specially with the German States with the fear of a two-front invasion.
- Great Britian: They never invaded nor had the chance to do damage to the Isles themselves.
Personally I would rather have Napoleon lose, although maybe with a different Congress of Vienna (Prussian Netherlands anybody?)
I agree that a loss or relatively early stalemate make the most sense. The Prussian Netherlands is a bit of an odd idea though, since the Netherlands had been outside of the German/Imperial sphere for a while by then (OTL the German confederation was basically the HRE, the borders might even have been exactly the same and German states received lands in there, Austria being the exception but only because it already held a lot of land that had been outside of the Empire and wasn't seen as German and had ties in Italy and big ambitions in the Balkans). Maybe of course I'm just not informed enough but it seems unlikely to me. A different peace of Vienna is likely and would be interesting.
[edit: if you mean land in the broader region of the Netherlands (ie. OTL Belgium) that doesn't seem like too big of a stretch]
Actually, @Entrerriano I saw a map with something similar to your suggestion (it's just German states and I don't agree with a lot of it but still)
Hmm, I recall reading somewhere that Prussia was interested in gaining OTL Belgium after the war, but I can't find any sources on that. I think that Prussia occupied OTL Belgium in 1813/1814 but other than that, nothing.
Mid-posting edit lol:
Oh, I'm pretty sure "unter preussischer Verwaltung" means under Prussian occupation.
Btw @Fox-Fire we need to settle in a South America lore. I want to keep my Argentina lore as intact as possible but I'm open to suggestions, and any modification in my Peru/Colombia lore.
Okay, let's do it.
I wouldn't give Misiones Orientales to Brazil. I tend to think that the British would like to keep a buffer between themselves and the Brazilians after the Napoleonic Wars and during them I doubt the Portuguese would be too preocupied with South America or have the resources to spare to get the territory. This is especilly true if we think how bellicose the remains of Argentina would be and that the British would oppose the Portuguese taking that zone. Plus, it could serve as a ground for fruther expansion in the future, either immediate or medium term.
I agree with your idea of Argentina fracturing even further without Buenos Aires. I could see pieces of it being picked up by the Chileans and the British later. That doesn't mean anything on your maps has to change, just that we could have some changes to them in the future.
Regarding the expansion of the British Colony, I think they would try to go upwards on the rivers. This gives them advantage of controlling tarde in the region more effectively than having Buenos Aires (which is already a great chokepoint and the other lands might be overkill, but this is the British we are talking about). Also it could help them link with Paraguay (in the case it exists) to keep someone between them and the Brazilians and a larger Praguay means less lands for other powers in the region; basically divide and conquer. Or in this case, divide and influence.
I'm firmly of the opinion that the remaining countries would fight for their independence regardless of Argentina being crushed or not. As I said in my post, I easily see the British taking advantage of the situation in Iberia and supplying the rebells in South America with (outdated) weapons and technical advisors. I don't believe that the independences of the other countries would be delayed too much, if at all, nor that Bolívar would reach Upper Perú before O'Higgins. On the other hand, I know Perú had a more complicated situation and requiered some external pressure to be freed. That doesn't contradict what I said before.
In regards to Gran Colombia: they have tremendous structural problems. I feel that Venezuela and Ecuador would be in open revolt before the news that Bolívar liberated and incorporated Upper Perú into the country would reach them if we follow your chronology. For example, the Darien Gap is still without any means of being crossed by land currently and I can already see some of the same communication problems happening all around the country (with or without incorporating Perú and Upper Perú). Yes, I know that some parts might be easier to cross than the Darien Gap is, however, we also must remember how much of those places are jungles and mountains and how the Spanish strangled the institutions in their dominions. Plus the techonology, which might be the most important factor of all.
So like a good map of India in the 1800s or a blank map to put borders on (Ive heard the term basemap applied to both, not sure which u need)? Imma look for one later today.
I'm fine with that. Now that I think about it, the main territory that Portugal wanted was Uruguay, so with Uruguay already in British hands, maybe the Portuguese wouldn't invade in the first place. The region would still be disputed throughout the 19th century, I think.
That's why I gave them all of *Entre Ríos. I don't think they would go much more towards the north, since they would probably collaborate with Asunción.
The thing is, there's no Paso, Castelli, Belgrano or Güemes to keep the Spanish occupied in the Upper Peru front, so those are some troops that can be repurposed. I don't think they would care about Paraguay other than a few expeditions since the Chaco is kinda impassable. With no pressure from the South, the Spanish can focus on the North. Of course the British could help, but not that much. Also the Chilean Revolution of the Patria Vieja was defeated and O'Higgins decided to join San Martín's army. This time there's no San Martín, so I don't know how would O'Higgins keep a free Chile, so that makes him getting to the Upper Peru kinda hard. Of course as far as I know, you are Chilean, so you probably know better than myself.
No problem with this at all.
Well for one José Miguel Carrera (is longer in spanish) went to the USA for support to the Chilean Independence war, and he get it With the help of Commodore David Porter, the 1812 war héroe, the fact is that without San Martin, Jose Miguel Carrera will not be Assassinated. and will have more say in the country evolution
For the other Manuel Rodríguez (laso longer in Spanish), organised a Guerrilla fight, was incredible Popular, and was considered the Natural successor of O´higgins in case of dead, reason that led to his execution, and organized the guerrilla fighters against the Royalist troop to the point to conquer various villages and cities.
O´higgins was not really that important, but as he was the winner, read it killed all the other Independence caudillos, he wrote the history