The Colossus Of The New World - a worldbuilding project
- Thread starter Višeslav
- Start date
That actually makes a lot more sense since the Jersey plan (and the early Virginia plan I believe) proposed having the executive elected by congress.
South America history Proposal I:
1.- First image, on the top left corner, shows South America in the years just before 1808.
2.- 1808: The first landings of the British in the Río de la Plata, in the cities of Buenos Aires, Montevideo and Río de la Plata. Smaller forts and such in the area aren’t shown due to their smaller size and the fact the British decided to demolish them through naval bombardment instead of directly occupying them.
3.- 1809: The British manage their largest territorial dominion during the invasion. The British see their overextension and the difficulty of maintaining supply lines even with their soldiers mostly feeding themselves on the surplus of the fertile plains. They have realized that they will have to cooperate with the locals is they wish to keep their presence in the continent. Against the will of Spain, their temporal ally against the Napoleonic forces, they decide to start smuggling weapons and advisors to train the not fully organized independentists against the Spanish. Though the weapons are what little old equipment they can spare and the advisors few and far in between, they serve their purpose with great effectiveness.
4.- 1810: The start of the South American Wars of Independence. In the Río de la Plata, the Spanish have lost most of the control of their important areas and neuralgic centres, leaving them unable to control the Viceroyalty. The administrative centre is pushed inland with the remaining administrators and Royalist Peninsulares fleeing to Córdoba. The British at first suffer too the effects of this, losing control of some of their northernmost advances, including Asunción and having some of the lands under their control revolting in favour of an independent government. They are mostly (falsely) placated during the next year with the British government declaring they’ll support the independence of Latin America from their Spanish overlords in a covert message.
On the other side of the Andes, the British sways the Cabildo in Santiago to revolt against the Spanish instead of pledging loyalty to the King of Spain (as it was in OTL before the war of Independence).
Trade is opened with the whole of the continent by the British.
5.- 1811: The Viceroyalty of Río de la Plata is dissolved and the few remains under Spanish control are reintegrated into the Viceroyalty of Perú. Córdoba is liberated by a combined British/Argentinian force.
Chile manages to kick the Spanish out from the former territory of the Capitanía General. The Mapuche side with the Spanish (as in OTL). Chilean troops disembark on Chiloé and the Gulf of Revolcaví.
6.- 1812: Simón Bolivar initiates his revolt, most of Colombia falls within the year. The British capture the Peninsula of Paraguaná to supply weapons to the rebels through the port city of Coro.
The Guayanas surrender without much fighting to Great Britain, they are divided with the Portuguese/Brazilian. The French islands in the Caribbean are captured. Aruba and the surrounding islands are captured with the official intent of avoiding the French using them, of course, this might not be the main real incentive.
The British draw their plan for the Río de la Plata, which would remain mostly unchanged until its implementation. The control of Córdoba and the surrounding area is officially transferred to Argentina.
Chile captures the last stronghold of the Spanish in Chiloé.
7.- Second Line: 1815: Simón Bolivar initiates the Orinoco campaign, which results in the liberation of Venezuela. Following this, he sends a small force to the north to Panamá while his main force pushes south, taking control of Quito and Guayaquil.
The Viceroyalty of New Granada is abolished.
In the Southern Cone, O’Higgins and San Martín along with most of the independentist leaders head into Perú through the coastal cities of the Atacama Desert, capturing them one by one. In the meantime, an advanced force disembarks in Arica, Tacna and Arequipa. Their aim: linking with Bolívar in Lima.
8.- 1817: The last decisive battles in Perú are fought and won, Bolívar meets San Martín and O’Higgins south of Lima. Spain’s last bastions are without way of being resupplied. Most of the main Royalist armies surrender before the end of the year. However, fighting would continue in more isolated regions, such as Upper Perú, for years.
9.- 1822: With the Napoleonic Wars over, the Spanish Empire tries unsuccessfully to regain their lost territories in the Americas. Their landings in Gran Colombia and Argentina are repelled but Chile doesn’t have the same luck. They are invaded once again with the support of many local Mapuche and royalists. The war would last for a few years and be a bitter struggle.
Gran Colombia starts with grave internal stability problems.
10.- 1823: A large civil war starts Gran Colombia.
The British colony of Río de la Plata is stablished to the ire and loathing of the Argentinians. The young nation declares war on the British and has its three armies pushed back and routed. The Platte River Colony survives the war though not intact. This shatters the Argentine into several Federal Units, with Córdoba, the temporary capital of the Republic, having trouble keeping them united into a country or even a confederacy. Several of the states declare independence. Nonetheless, the only one who manages to keep it in the anarchic times is Paraguay, who aligns with the British seeing their short-lived nation threatened by the rest of the shaky Confederacy.
1.- First image, on the top left corner, shows South America in the years just before 1808.
2.- 1808: The first landings of the British in the Río de la Plata, in the cities of Buenos Aires, Montevideo and Río de la Plata. Smaller forts and such in the area aren’t shown due to their smaller size and the fact the British decided to demolish them through naval bombardment instead of directly occupying them.
3.- 1809: The British manage their largest territorial dominion during the invasion. The British see their overextension and the difficulty of maintaining supply lines even with their soldiers mostly feeding themselves on the surplus of the fertile plains. They have realized that they will have to cooperate with the locals is they wish to keep their presence in the continent. Against the will of Spain, their temporal ally against the Napoleonic forces, they decide to start smuggling weapons and advisors to train the not fully organized independentists against the Spanish. Though the weapons are what little old equipment they can spare and the advisors few and far in between, they serve their purpose with great effectiveness.
4.- 1810: The start of the South American Wars of Independence. In the Río de la Plata, the Spanish have lost most of the control of their important areas and neuralgic centres, leaving them unable to control the Viceroyalty. The administrative centre is pushed inland with the remaining administrators and Royalist Peninsulares fleeing to Córdoba. The British at first suffer too the effects of this, losing control of some of their northernmost advances, including Asunción and having some of the lands under their control revolting in favour of an independent government. They are mostly (falsely) placated during the next year with the British government declaring they’ll support the independence of Latin America from their Spanish overlords in a covert message.
On the other side of the Andes, the British sways the Cabildo in Santiago to revolt against the Spanish instead of pledging loyalty to the King of Spain (as it was in OTL before the war of Independence).
Trade is opened with the whole of the continent by the British.
5.- 1811: The Viceroyalty of Río de la Plata is dissolved and the few remains under Spanish control are reintegrated into the Viceroyalty of Perú. Córdoba is liberated by a combined British/Argentinian force.
Chile manages to kick the Spanish out from the former territory of the Capitanía General. The Mapuche side with the Spanish (as in OTL). Chilean troops disembark on Chiloé and the Gulf of Revolcaví.
6.- 1812: Simón Bolivar initiates his revolt, most of Colombia falls within the year. The British capture the Peninsula of Paraguaná to supply weapons to the rebels through the port city of Coro.
The Guayanas surrender without much fighting to Great Britain, they are divided with the Portuguese/Brazilian. The French islands in the Caribbean are captured. Aruba and the surrounding islands are captured with the official intent of avoiding the French using them, of course, this might not be the main real incentive.
The British draw their plan for the Río de la Plata, which would remain mostly unchanged until its implementation. The control of Córdoba and the surrounding area is officially transferred to Argentina.
Chile captures the last stronghold of the Spanish in Chiloé.
7.- Second Line: 1815: Simón Bolivar initiates the Orinoco campaign, which results in the liberation of Venezuela. Following this, he sends a small force to the north to Panamá while his main force pushes south, taking control of Quito and Guayaquil.
The Viceroyalty of New Granada is abolished.
In the Southern Cone, O’Higgins and San Martín along with most of the independentist leaders head into Perú through the coastal cities of the Atacama Desert, capturing them one by one. In the meantime, an advanced force disembarks in Arica, Tacna and Arequipa. Their aim: linking with Bolívar in Lima.
8.- 1817: The last decisive battles in Perú are fought and won, Bolívar meets San Martín and O’Higgins south of Lima. Spain’s last bastions are without way of being resupplied. Most of the main Royalist armies surrender before the end of the year. However, fighting would continue in more isolated regions, such as Upper Perú, for years.
9.- 1822: With the Napoleonic Wars over, the Spanish Empire tries unsuccessfully to regain their lost territories in the Americas. Their landings in Gran Colombia and Argentina are repelled but Chile doesn’t have the same luck. They are invaded once again with the support of many local Mapuche and royalists. The war would last for a few years and be a bitter struggle.
Gran Colombia starts with grave internal stability problems.
10.- 1823: A large civil war starts Gran Colombia.
The British colony of Río de la Plata is stablished to the ire and loathing of the Argentinians. The young nation declares war on the British and has its three armies pushed back and routed. The Platte River Colony survives the war though not intact. This shatters the Argentine into several Federal Units, with Córdoba, the temporary capital of the Republic, having trouble keeping them united into a country or even a confederacy. Several of the states declare independence. Nonetheless, the only one who manages to keep it in the anarchic times is Paraguay, who aligns with the British seeing their short-lived nation threatened by the rest of the shaky Confederacy.
I love the proposal, but I seriously doubt that the Rioplatenses would work with Britain to this extent, as proven by the resistance in the British Invasions OTL, they prefered to be part of Spain over Britain. Also San Martín would probably stay in Spain, too.
Thank you! I tend to think that some of the dates could be altered to better reflect that and therefore that the British could be helping the other South American nations to become independent while also fighting the Rioplatenses. With that I mean pushing the date of the proclamation of the colony much earlier and thus the war; I think they could afford supporting the other nations with old weapons and advisors while also a small invasion in Argentina.
The British could even be turning the other Latin Americans against the Argentinians with promises of their lands and preferential trade agreements.
The British could even be turning the other Latin Americans against the Argentinians with promises of their lands and preferential trade agreements.
Well, I could certainly see the British helping Bolívar and O'Higgins (or even Miranda, who knows). But the anti-british sentiment in Rio de La Plata would be too strong, and without Buenos Aires, an organized revolution is kinda unlikely.
What kind of South America you all want to end up with, by the way?
That could point me towards the ideas you have for the continent, if you have any preferences and such. I have no problems if you don't though, as most aren't that knowledgable on Latin American history. Anyway, I could point you to some clichés so you could avoid them or at least be conscious of them so as not to abuse them. Or you could take and spin them in another fashion to be more original. Anyway, here are some:
-Perú-Bolivia under any kind of government and/or surviving longer than in OTL.
They are the CSA of South America in that regard.
- Non-independent Uruguay.
- Wacky borders Paraguay.
- Gran Colombia surviving (and specially when it's called "Columbia")
- British Patagonia, Welsh Patagonia, French Patagonia, colonize it the way you like by an European Power and it's a cliché.
- Bolivia with a coast and expanding said coast.
- The US annexing everything in sight (that includes US Patagonia and maybe even US Rapa Nui).
- Mapuche Kingdom.
That could point me towards the ideas you have for the continent, if you have any preferences and such. I have no problems if you don't though, as most aren't that knowledgable on Latin American history. Anyway, I could point you to some clichés so you could avoid them or at least be conscious of them so as not to abuse them. Or you could take and spin them in another fashion to be more original. Anyway, here are some:
-Perú-Bolivia under any kind of government and/or surviving longer than in OTL.
They are the CSA of South America in that regard.
- Non-independent Uruguay.
- Wacky borders Paraguay.
- Gran Colombia surviving (and specially when it's called "Columbia")
- British Patagonia, Welsh Patagonia, French Patagonia, colonize it the way you like by an European Power and it's a cliché.
- Bolivia with a coast and expanding said coast.
- The US annexing everything in sight (that includes US Patagonia and maybe even US Rapa Nui).
- Mapuche Kingdom.
My responses to the cliches:
1. Peru-Bolivia is somewhat of a mystery. A couple people suggested it remain a state, mine has it fairly fractured between Peru, Bolivia*, and Acre.
2. Uruguay and Paraguay hinge on what happens to Plate Colony and Argentina
3. Gran Colombia is something that's up in the air. An idea we had floating around was it existing as an ally of the USA, especially because of the British-influenced UKCA.
4. Patagonia is probably going to be split up between Argentina (if it exists) and Chile. Worst that will happen is Plate expanding a bit southward.
5. Depends on what happens to Bolivia.
6. The United States ITTL is essentially a confederacy of states -- I guess analogous to Switzerland (in that it's a confederation where the states that make up it are very autonomous, but not likely to secede or form their own nations) -- as such, expansionism in the USA isn't... the most likely, to be honest. I mean, we have them getting most of North America, but I doubt anyone ITTL is going to suggest South America.
7. Dunno,
No specific plan for South America, I mostly wanted to go with the Basic idea of US takes most of Canada and expand the world out mostly from the repercussions of that. As for the cliches you mentioned:
- Peru-Bolivia has been suggested like Bennett said, though I'm not really attached to it
- Exactly what Bennett said about Paraguay and Uruguay, specifically, it's British expansionism in the region that greatly affects Uruguay. I have no plan for either though. Also, what is "Whacky Borders" Paraguay? Maybe I haven't read enough TLs but I haven't come across examples of it yet [edit: I see it included in Argentina or Brazil pretty often though, and no I don't mean urguay]. And, just out of curiosity, why is it a given that Uruguay stays independent?
- Colombia being called Columbia is preposterous. Definitely having none of that here.
- British Patagonia may come up in a lot of TLs, but here it is generally a possibility due to British presence in the southern cone and the region's low population. I'm not really attached to the idea but it being overused in cases where it's not plausible doesn't mean it isn't plausible here, so I wouldn't discount the possibility of Britain expanding that way just yet.
- The loss of the Bolivian coast. That's one I've seen lots of people (strangely mostly non-Bolivians) being salty about. Keeping the coast doesn't seem impossible but it's not something that I really give a ѕнiт about and it doesn't seem any more probable ttl than it was OTL so I'm fine with Bolivia being landlocked.
- US Easter island? That's definitely an odd idea. Yeah. The US is more than massive enough TTL, and because of its decentralized nature, alliances and spheres of influence seem more the way to go than absorbing all the neighbours. With the exception of possible involvement in conflicts between Mexico and American settlers/ranchers in its northern regions, I don't see a window for the us expand much.
- The last one seems super unlikely. Definitely a stupid cliche. I wonder why it's so common.
1.- Perú-Bolivia (as large as it was in OTL) would be a threat to the region's stability because they have claims on all its neighbours. It would be treated in the same manner that France would do everything in its power to stop the formation of a Greater Germany.
2.- I see no problem with a British Uruguay, however, there is still a tremendous wiggle room for Paraguay to exist and I'm trying to aim for that since they get the short end of the stick in almost all maps.
3.- Gran Colombia was plagued with internal dissent due to the ineffectiveness of the government. A different government might solve some of the problems and allow a larger state to remain but the problems are mostly structural in their base so Gran Colombia at it's greatest extent would be extremely hard to hold together.
4.- I was thinking the same. I'm not too attached to the idea in either sense. maybe they could have some territorial expansion south but I would think that they wouldn't bother that much. The Araucanization of the Pampas and Patagonia as well as the lack of (visible) resources would make it better as a bargaining chip to Chile for preferential rights to saltpeter or them not being a thorn in their side as likely the remains of Argentina will. I could see them selling it or maybe even selling just their claims without any infrastructure south of some line, like the Colorado River or the Negro River.
5.- That coast contains the largest deposits of Saltpeter and Guano along with some of the largest of copper. Today it contributes with around 40% of Chile's GDP, and that's the lowest percentage it has contributed along most of its history, so even if Bolivia (or whatever it's name is ITTL) remains with a coast, they'll likely face a war for it. And they were and still are one of the poorest and most underdeveloped countries in South America. Even the remains of Argentina might take it from them.
6.- I see. I still tend to think that the US would likely try to take the Bay of San Francisco due to it's ideal strategic position though that isn't a guarantee... Maybe a gold rush there can sweeten the prize. I think the same could be said for part of Texas. On the other hand, I see no reason whatsoever for the US to take New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, Southern Utah and Southern California.
7.- Because people tend to think the Mapuche had anything resembling a feudal or centralized structure. They didn't have that at all, they didn't even have cities in the first place.
2.- I see no problem with a British Uruguay, however, there is still a tremendous wiggle room for Paraguay to exist and I'm trying to aim for that since they get the short end of the stick in almost all maps.
3.- Gran Colombia was plagued with internal dissent due to the ineffectiveness of the government. A different government might solve some of the problems and allow a larger state to remain but the problems are mostly structural in their base so Gran Colombia at it's greatest extent would be extremely hard to hold together.
4.- I was thinking the same. I'm not too attached to the idea in either sense. maybe they could have some territorial expansion south but I would think that they wouldn't bother that much. The Araucanization of the Pampas and Patagonia as well as the lack of (visible) resources would make it better as a bargaining chip to Chile for preferential rights to saltpeter or them not being a thorn in their side as likely the remains of Argentina will. I could see them selling it or maybe even selling just their claims without any infrastructure south of some line, like the Colorado River or the Negro River.
5.- That coast contains the largest deposits of Saltpeter and Guano along with some of the largest of copper. Today it contributes with around 40% of Chile's GDP, and that's the lowest percentage it has contributed along most of its history, so even if Bolivia (or whatever it's name is ITTL) remains with a coast, they'll likely face a war for it. And they were and still are one of the poorest and most underdeveloped countries in South America. Even the remains of Argentina might take it from them.
6.- I see. I still tend to think that the US would likely try to take the Bay of San Francisco due to it's ideal strategic position though that isn't a guarantee... Maybe a gold rush there can sweeten the prize. I think the same could be said for part of Texas. On the other hand, I see no reason whatsoever for the US to take New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, Southern Utah and Southern California.
7.- Because people tend to think the Mapuche had anything resembling a feudal or centralized structure. They didn't have that at all, they didn't even have cities in the first place.
I forgot to mention gold, what I mean is that northern Mexico is all I see the US as being likely to expand into.
As for Britain selling its claims, do you mean Chile would get parts of Patagonia all the way to the east coast? That's certainly something that hasn't been done much before, but I see nothing wrong with the idea.
I am working on a Q-BAM of the world in about 1820, after the revolutions in America and the Napoleonic wars
I think there's no point in trying to maintain a specific number of states. I wouldn't make Aroostook a state, though Labrador is definitely a territory.
What's your basemap look like? I want to see if it's higher quality than the one I normally use.
I'm working from the 1815 Q-BAM, from the Q-BAM historical map thread. I'll upload the file later on this post, but I am away from my computer