Maximilian, Elector of Bavaria dies.

VVD0D95

Banned
Somewhat related to one of my current timelines in An Unexpected Prince. Say Maximilian, Elector of Bavaria and husband of Maria Antonia of Bavaria died in 1689, what does this change? Who does Maria Antonia marry and assuming her son Leopold Ferdinand still died at birth what happens to Bavaria?
 
I know it happened in the 10h century but I'm not sure if it was still done in the 17th century: could Maxiilian's brother Joseph Clemens leave the Church and marry?
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I know it happened in the 10h century but I'm not sure if it was still done in the 17th century: could Maxiilian's brother Joseph Clemens leave the Church and marry?

I think he could, given the times it happened later with Rinaldo, Duke of Modena etc
 
I know it happened in the 10h century but I'm not sure if it was still done in the 17th century: could Maxiilian's brother Joseph Clemens leave the Church and marry?
Pretty likely as he will be the next Elector of Bavaria if his brother die childless but I do not know to which Antonia will remarry after the death of her first husband
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Pretty likely as he will be the next Elector of Bavaria if his brother die childless but I do not know to which Antonia will remarry after the death of her first husband

Would Louis perhaps suggest his nephew Philippe Junior?
 
Would Louis perhaps suggest his nephew Philippe Junior?
Louis can suggest, Leopold will surely disagree and he is the one with the last word about his daughter’s wedding. Considering who Philippe jr is a Bourbon and five years younger than Antonia his chances to marry her are pretty low if not inexistent
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Louis can suggest, Leopold will surely disagree and he is the one with the last word about his daughter’s wedding. Considering who Philippe jr is a Bourbon and five years younger than Antonia his chances to marry her are pretty low if not inexistent

Could Philip William of Neuberg, Leopold's brother in law be considered?
 
Could Philip William of Neuberg, Leopold's brother in law be considered?
How close he was to Leopold? Surely a such match will prevent all the OTL discussion about succession in Spain between the two Queen Mariana as both will support the granddaughter of the first and the brother of the latter and their children over their shared Austrian nephew
 

VVD0D95

Banned
How close he was to Leopold? Surely a such match will prevent all the OTL discussion about succession in Spain between the two Queen Mariana as both will support the granddaughter of the first and the brother of the latter and their children over their shared Austrian nephew

I'm not sure how close he was, but it does mkae the most sense. Indeed I can even see Leopold's wife, sister in law and former mother in law all suggesting it to him
 
I'm not sure how close he was, but it does mkae the most sense. Indeed I can even see Leopold's wife, sister in law and former mother in law all suggesting it to him
I also think who that make sense but I am not sure of what Leopold will think
 
Depending on the timing I think James Louis Sobieski may be put forward again. Leopold probably still won't like the idea but turning John Sobieski down, again, and then marrying Maria Antonia to a Neuburg would be pretty insulting. Especially since it was another Neuburg, Charles Philip, who stole away James Louis' other potential bride, Ludwika Karolina Radziwill. So the diplomacy surrounding her remarriage would get tricky.

Also another marriage will probably renew the issue of her rights to Spain. She renounced them on the eve of her first marriage, though that wasn't generally accepted in Spain. So that issue will probably come up again as they negotiate a new marriage contract.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Depending on the timing I think James Louis Sobieski may be put forward again. Leopold probably still won't like the idea but turning John Sobieski down, again, and then marrying Maria Antonia to a Neuburg would be pretty insulting. Especially since it was another Neuburg, Charles Philip, who stole away James Louis' other potential bride, Ludwika Karolina Radziwill. So the diplomacy surrounding her remarriage would get tricky.

Also another marriage will probably renew the issue of her rights to Spain. She renounced them on the eve of her first marriage, though that wasn't generally accepted in Spain. So that issue will probably come up again as they negotiate a new marriage contract.
Interesting do you know why Leopold objected to Sobieski
 
I think he'd be pretty happy with it no? After all Neuberg is his brother in law, and as such an ally
With Leopold you never know...

Depending on the timing I think James Louis Sobieski may be put forward again. Leopold probably still won't like the idea but turning John Sobieski down, again, and then marrying Maria Antonia to a Neuburg would be pretty insulting. Especially since it was another Neuburg, Charles Philip, who stole away James Louis' other potential bride, Ludwika Karolina Radziwill. So the diplomacy surrounding her remarriage would get tricky.

Also another marriage will probably renew the issue of her rights to Spain. She renounced them on the eve of her first marriage, though that wasn't generally accepted in Spain. So that issue will probably come up again as they negotiate a new marriage contract.

Interesting do you know why Leopold objected to Sobieski
Likely because Antonia was heiress of Spain. If she was remarried to Philip of Neuburg after Charles II of Spain remarried to Maria Anna of Neuburg, Leopold will not ask her to renounce again to Spain...
 
Yeah, despite the fact that the man just saved Vienna Leopold wouldn't deign to consider the match. I think it was a number of things; Sobieski being somewhat pro-French, not being of high enough rank (James Louis as son of an elected King born before his election wasn't like a Crown Prince in other countries) and worry that John would outshine Leopold (as savior of Christendom) and so not wanting to hand him further reward. And of course what would become of her inheritance rights.

Since all of those issues still come into play in 1689 I'd say Leopold still balks at the proposal but turning it down a second time would have to be done with some delicacy.
 
Yeah, I kind of think there is logic to it. I think Leopold would want to marry her to someone who isn't a threat, someone who doesn't have a lot of resources with which to press a claim to Spain counter to his own. Neuburg fits that bill. Louis of Baden might as well, though he's older and poorer and lower rank, but loyal to the Emperor and his weaknesses might be seen as advantages in Leopold's eye, maybe. The couple could stay at Vienna, what with Baden having been so thoroughly devastated by France and Leopold could keep and eye on them and their kids.
 
Yeah, I kind of think there is logic to it. I think Leopold would want to marry her to someone who isn't a threat, someone who doesn't have a lot of resources with which to press a claim to Spain counter to his own. Neuburg fits that bill. Louis of Baden might as well, though he's older and poorer and lower rank, but loyal to the Emperor and his weaknesses might be seen as advantages in Leopold's eye, maybe. The couple could stay at Vienna, what with Baden having been so thoroughly devastated by France and Leopold could keep and eye on them and their kids.
Neuburg will be fully supported in Spain being the brother of Queen Maria Anna so that will put both Queen fully in the Neuburg camp... Still is a pretty likely miscalculation by Leopold. Baden is still less likely...
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Neuburg will be fully supported in Spain being the brother of Queen Maria Anna so that will put both Queen fully in the Neuburg camp... Still is a pretty likely miscalculation by Leopold. Baden is still less likely...

Oh what would make it a miscalculation?
 
Yeah, despite the fact that the man just saved Vienna Leopold wouldn't deign to consider the match. I think it was a number of things; Sobieski being somewhat pro-French, not being of high enough rank (James Louis as son of an elected King born before his election wasn't like a Crown Prince in other countries) and worry that John would outshine Leopold (as savior of Christendom) and so not wanting to hand him further reward. And of course what would become of her inheritance rights.

Since all of those issues still come into play in 1689 I'd say Leopold still balks at the proposal but turning it down a second time would have to be done with some delicacy.
Sobieski was pro-French, but he was also opportunist and would switch to Imperial camp without hestitation if Emperor offefed better deal ( hand of Archduchess for his son and Duchy of Opole for them would be such better deal).
What played bigger role was Leopold's pride (he was jealous of Sobieski's fame after Battle of Vienna and looked him down because he was not of Royal blood).

Sobieski married to heiress of Spain is doable (I did such scenario once:

House of Sobieski (warning: it is a bit wankish scenario with some handwaving).
So: Jan III Sobieski dies just after Battle of Vienna in glory of hero, his 16 years old son Jakub is elected to the throne of PLC thanks to fresh memory of his father's victories. At the same time Leopold Habsburg happens to be more grateful for Polish help and, in addition, have a son with his first wife (Johann Leopold, born in 1670, survives childhood). Thus he allows marriage of his daughter Maria Antonia with young Sobieski. Meanwhile Johann Leopold dies in his teens (he was even more inbred than his uncle Carlos II, so no surprise there). Thus Maria Antonia (and then her son) became heiress of Spanish throne.



Son of Jakub Sobieski and Maria Antonis gets Spanish throne as neutral candidate-as he is neither Bourbon nor Habsburg he gets support of England and Netherlands and is acceptable for France and Austria.
 
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