Die Alte Welt Hat Überlebt- A Central Powers Victory Collaborative Timeline

How many civil wars should Russia have?


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After a bit more than 24 hours, I ended the runoff polls. And these were the results:

Britain after World War II - runoff.png
The situation of East Australia's government - runoff.png
The situation of Ireland - runoff.png
The situation of Israel - runoff.png


And so we have decided to:
  • Have a democratic Israel in the Levant as the only Israel of TTL (I already have an idea for Uganda which meshes with my vision for South Sudan and Central Africa)
  • Leave Ireland, with Ulster included, as a constitutional monarchy.
  • Have Britain reform after World War II and remain united.
  • and have a far-left East Australia and a libertarian democratic West Australia.
 
Also, regarding Polish houses, we got a clear result for the House of Württemberg (and, as my poll also included a republican option, against a republic):
Poland's Royal Houses Poll.png


With this, I think the next polls should be about Lithuania/Baltoslavia
 
Well, as far as I can see it is now decided via the poll system. Did you vote in the polls?

Also, Western Australia (the state) did have a secession referendum in 1933 in OTL - why do you think it makes "zero sense"?
Maybe an independent Western Australia, with both countries being democratic could make sense. But a W. Australia that is libertarian and holds much more of the country, with a socialist E. Australia and an East and West Melbourne is not really plausible.
 
Also, regarding Polish houses, we got a clear result for the House of Württemberg (and, as my poll also included a republican option, against a republic): View attachment 485280

With this, I think the next polls should be about Lithuania/Baltoslavia
Interesting, cause the poll on the thread is highly in favor of a Republic.
In that case, I think that my idea of the monarchy being overthrown during the liberalization of Germany makes sense
 
Interesting, cause the poll on the thread is highly in favor of a Republic.
In that case, I think that my idea of the monarchy being overthrown during the liberalization of Germany makes sense

And that is the issue with the poll here on the thread: The options "constitutional monarchy" and "liberal democracy" are not mutually exclusive. But I still find the idea interesting, too.
 
I just had another idea for Japan: A democratic republican Japan, leaning left but still democratic, leading a red sphere in East Asia (and thus percieved as red)? Would that be possible at all?

Or should we just go for the Red Revolution that we are envisioning?
 
BlackCrown- Spain
If there has been no past established "canon" about Spain, may I propose my own take on how Spain would develop in the wake of a German victory.

Spain had ridden out the Great War as a neutral nation in a world of war, but, even as she stayed aloof of the destruction of the war directly, she did not emerge from the flames unharmed. German U-Boat campaigns had severely damaged Spanish naval trade throughout the war, though the domestic economy had begun to increase as many sought armaments from neutral nations, even allowing for the notoriously debt ridden Spanish government to make great headway in climbing back from bankruptcy. More critical, however, was the effects of the war on the home front. Though industry had begun rapidly expanding during the war, the influx of armament trade produced rapid inflation, and the aforementioned U-Boat campaigns led to a near total stop of imports, only contributing to the price of goods soaring.

Domestic conflicts stirred as political parties divided themselves among pro-German and pro-Entente lines, food riots erupted, soldiers started unionizing, and general strikes were threatened. Governments collapsed and the home front was taking devastating blow after blow, and that was before the Spanish Flu tore through the nation like a storm. By the time that peace had erupted between Germany and the Entente, Spain was a nation that desperately needed respite. Unfortunately, that respite would not come.

As German victory was announced in Europe, Spain instead turned its attention to their African holdings, more specifically, Northern Morocco, otherwise known as the Rif. A previously "minor" rebellion, as minor as they got in Morocco at least, turned devastating with the surprise "Disaster of Annual of 1920" where over 13,000 Spanish men of a force numbering 20,000 were killed or lost, scattered by a far numerically inferior force led by Abd el-Krim. With rapid pace, el-Krim's newly declared "Confederal Republic of the Tribes of the Rif" rapidly reclaimed the Rif from Spanish forces, within the year they had pushed the Spanish out of all the territory they had conquered in 1909, and the Germans, always interested in Morocco, took notice. Rifian forces wielding German arms, supplies, training, and sometimes officers and troops, surged forth against Spain, and in late September 1921, el-Krim, given assurances of German support, would assault the city of Melilla, the last major city underneath the Spanish control in the East. 36,000 Spanish soldiers underneath the command of General José Sanjurjo fought against the Rifian tide, and 36,000 Spanish soldiers would not return to Spain, having been killed, lost in action, or captured as the city fell.

In Spain, the domestic conflict only worsened, as the nation became torn between Africanists (who favored the continued war in Morocco) and abandonistas (who favored abandoning the seemingly pointless bloodshed). Rapidly, the internal situation worsened, before His Majesty's Government, fearing civil war should nothing be done, declared an expedition of 200,000 men to the Rif "to make quick work of the rebellion," in vain hopes of achieving support and halting the inevitable. It could not have been received worse.

Abandonistas throughout Spain engaged in mass outcry. Soldiers in the ports, destined to be sent to the "Hell" of the Rif led mass mutiny, decrying that they would not waste their lives on Morocco. As the military was left helpless or against the nation, Spain fell into disrepair. What little remained of the Spanish Rif fell to the nascent Republic, while cries against the government merely increased at rapid pace. This would all come to a final head on New Years Day, 1922, as trade unions throughout Spain, led by the UGT and CNT announced a devastating general strike. Without the military to put down these protests, the situation rapidly escalating, King Alfonso XIII announced his official abdication as King of Spain on February 3. Near immediately, the CNT and UGT would seize control of parliament, proclaiming the "People's Republic of Spain" and the first constitutional convention.

For a time, peace it seemed had fallen upon Spain. The long abolished fueros system was reestablished, at least in part, as the People's Republic granted "autonomous statutes" to the Basque and Catalan peoples, allowing for provisional governments to be established in the autonomous statutes, to give way to elections. A peace treaty would be negotiated with the Republic of the Rif, though in truth it was little more than a complete and utter capitulation to Rifian demands, and the military began to quell. Unfortunately, this would only be "for a time," little more than a blink of an eye in Spain's troubled history.

The military, which was initially complacent to the People's Republic, rapidly began recovering from the trauma of the Rif, and, in its conservative leadership (left untouched by the Republic out of fear of a coup) rapidly began to plot. The already left-leaning Republic was quickly becoming far-left underneath the tutelage of the "trade union puppet government," and reactionaries throughout Spain were quickly outraged. The final straw would come in the appointments of the Basque and Catalan provisional governments, with the pro-autonomy Basque Nationalist Communion (Comunión Nacionalista Vasca) being appointed in Basque and, even more dreadfully, a near solely CNT government being appointed in Catalonia.

September 23, 1922, a mere eight months after the People's Republic's establishment, a vicious countercoup took place, as Captain General Miguel Primo de Rivera seized control of Parliament, declaring the arrest of every member of government for "treason against the King and Spanish people," installing himself as Regent of the "Spanish Kingdom." The Basque and Catalan regional governments, aware that abolition of their autonomy (and likely arrest of their parliaments) was imminent, were immediately alarmed, and seeking no other choice, immediately appealed to French protection, announcing their secession from the "tyrannic dictatorship of Madrid." They would not be the only in Spain seeking French protection, as Prime Minister Julián Besteiro and President Manuel Azaña, first and last of their position in the People's Republic, sought refuge in Paris, along with several other leftist leaders.

The French response was immediate, as Red forces immediately occupied Catalan and Basque soil declaring it to be underneath their protection. So too was the German response, however, as Spanish colonial possessions throughout Africa were seized by greedy German forces, giving a death blow to the Spanish Colonial Empire. Portugal too would seek to gain from the opportunity, capturing the long disputed region of Olivenza to add to their nation. Still, after brief diplomatic crisis, Rivera seemed unwilling to go to war with the French, Portuguese or German nations, recognizing his own precarious position as ruler of Spain, choosing instead to consolidate his rule and exchange great many diplomatic insult and propaganda.

In Catalonia, the unburdened CNT government quickly reorganized itself as the "Free Territories of Catalonia," or to be more accurately, unorganized itself, with a near complete degeneration of the state along anarchist lines. The only remnants of state authority were self-organized "Revolutionary Councils" throughout the nation, and freely organized "Militias of the People" both deemed necessities to defend the "nation" against the threats of Rivera. These proclamations were met with cheers throughout Barcelona, as the Provisional Catalan Government issued its final decree, a complete dissolution of itself.

In Basque, however, the newly decreed "Republic of Vasca" took much the opposite choice. Organized under the more conservative CNV, there was a practical horror throughout the nation at the thought of the Red French protection, and the possibility of Socialist coup. Strongly centralizing its rule underneath the Vascan Assembly and President, the Vascan Republic put particular emphasis on the creation of a strong military, not just to defend against Rivera, but also their own French protectors. Stuck between a rock and a hard place, the Republic of Vasca is left with many uncertainties about its future and potential development.

All is not well in paradise, however, for even as the people celebrate their independence, cracks rapidly have begun to appear on the surface. French troops dispatched to protect their nations are infamous for their poor conduct, and, particularly in Catalonia where there is no central government to keep the peace, rumors swirl of pillaging, robbery, murder and rape by these occupying forces. The Catalan transition into anarchism, once lauded, has been anything but smooth, as Revolutionary Councils often find themselves in firm dispute with each other and petty squabbling fills their days, even as the ineffective Militia of the People seem to join in the same debaucheries of their French counterparts, often spoken of more with fear than reverence. Even more concerning is rapid increase in pressure on Catalonia from France, as many Revolutionary councils speak of offers of "annexation" into the French "nation," the joining of two revolutionary movements into one, and concerningly, the belief that these offers will eventually become ones "they can't refuse."

In Vasca, the poor conduct of French forces has led to anti-French sentiments becoming widespread throughout the nation, as even Vascan soldiers will sometimes attack Frenchmen they see on the street, and they do not limit themselves to soldiers. Rumors of French or Spanish conspiracy abound, as an increasingly paranoid Vascan Assembly does everything they can to stave off a seemingly inevitable overthrow. Worse, if the mutterings of French soldiers and intelligence from Madrid are to be believed, they may not wholly be incorrect, as Frenchmen quickly tire of their horrible treatment by Vascan countrymen. A conservative, Catholic nation under the protection of Red forces, it is no wonder that conflict seems so ready to brew.

It is not like, however, the alternative to French protection is any more appealing. With brutal purges of Spanish leftists, whom he has accused of conspiring with Catalan and French intelligence, and military junta rule, Rivera has quickly transformed Spain into the model despotic state. Withdrawing all diplomatic relations from the Central Powers, and even neighboring Portugal, over their seizure of Spanish land, Rivera finds himself increasingly isolated upon the European continent, and the poor leader is rapidly beginning to crack underneath the pressure. Military Governors throughout the nation slowly begin forming their own cults of personality, as the good Regent finds himself gradually losing his grip upon the nation. Half-finished public works projects, formed out of the hope of lowering unemployment and winning support, dot the Spanish countryside. Sitting upon a crumbling throne of blood and unfinished buildings, Spain's colonial empire lost, and even core parts of the Iberian peninsula occupied by foreign foes, Rivera's empire of military warlords and purges is a far cry from the golden age he promised. Who knows how long it will last before the damn fool loses his head?

(Sorry for length, but that's my general proposal for the post-war years of Spain)
 
If there has been no past established "canon" about Spain, may I propose my own take on how Spain would develop in the wake of a German victory.

Spain had ridden out the Great War as a neutral nation in a world of war, but, even as she stayed aloof of the destruction of the war directly, she did not emerge from the flames unharmed. German U-Boat campaigns had severely damaged Spanish naval trade throughout the war, though the domestic economy had begun to increase as many sought armaments from neutral nations, even allowing for the notoriously debt ridden Spanish government to make great headway in climbing back from bankruptcy. More critical, however, was the effects of the war on the home front. Though industry had begun rapidly expanding during the war, the influx of armament trade produced rapid inflation, and the aforementioned U-Boat campaigns led to a near total stop of imports, only contributing to the price of goods soaring.

Domestic conflicts stirred as political parties divided themselves among pro-German and pro-Entente lines, food riots erupted, soldiers started unionizing, and general strikes were threatened. Governments collapsed and the home front was taking devastating blow after blow, and that was before the Spanish Flu tore through the nation like a storm. By the time that peace had erupted between Germany and the Entente, Spain was a nation that desperately needed respite. Unfortunately, that respite would not come.

As German victory was announced in Europe, Spain instead turned its attention to their African holdings, more specifically, Northern Morocco, otherwise known as the Rif. A previously "minor" rebellion, as minor as they got in Morocco at least, turned devastating with the surprise "Disaster of Annual of 1920" where over 13,000 Spanish men of a force numbering 20,000 were killed or lost, scattered by a far numerically inferior force led by Abd el-Krim. With rapid pace, el-Krim's newly declared "Confederal Republic of the Tribes of the Rif" rapidly reclaimed the Rif from Spanish forces, within the year they had pushed the Spanish out of all the territory they had conquered in 1909, and the Germans, always interested in Morocco, took notice. Rifian forces wielding German arms, supplies, training, and sometimes officers and troops, surged forth against Spain, and in late September 1921, el-Krim, given assurances of German support, would assault the city of Melilla, the last major city underneath the Spanish control in the East. 36,000 Spanish soldiers underneath the command of General José Sanjurjo fought against the Rifian tide, and 36,000 Spanish soldiers would not return to Spain, having been killed, lost in action, or captured as the city fell.

In Spain, the domestic conflict only worsened, as the nation became torn between Africanists (who favored the continued war in Morocco) and abandonistas (who favored abandoning the seemingly pointless bloodshed). Rapidly, the internal situation worsened, before His Majesty's Government, fearing civil war should nothing be done, declared an expedition of 200,000 men to the Rif "to make quick work of the rebellion," in vain hopes of achieving support and halting the inevitable. It could not have been received worse.

Abandonistas throughout Spain engaged in mass outcry. Soldiers in the ports, destined to be sent to the "Hell" of the Rif led mass mutiny, decrying that they would not waste their lives on Morocco. As the military was left helpless or against the nation, Spain fell into disrepair. What little remained of the Spanish Rif fell to the nascent Republic, while cries against the government merely increased at rapid pace. This would all come to a final head on New Years Day, 1922, as trade unions throughout Spain, led by the UGT and CNT announced a devastating general strike. Without the military to put down these protests, the situation rapidly escalating, King Alfonso XIII announced his official abdication as King of Spain on February 3. Near immediately, the CNT and UGT would seize control of parliament, proclaiming the "People's Republic of Spain" and the first constitutional convention.

For a time, peace it seemed had fallen upon Spain. The long abolished fueros system was reestablished, at least in part, as the People's Republic granted "autonomous statutes" to the Basque and Catalan peoples, allowing for provisional governments to be established in the autonomous statutes, to give way to elections. A peace treaty would be negotiated with the Republic of the Rif, though in truth it was little more than a complete and utter capitulation to Rifian demands, and the military began to quell. Unfortunately, this would only be "for a time," little more than a blink of an eye in Spain's troubled history.

The military, which was initially complacent to the People's Republic, rapidly began recovering from the trauma of the Rif, and, in its conservative leadership (left untouched by the Republic out of fear of a coup) rapidly began to plot. The already left-leaning Republic was quickly becoming far-left underneath the tutelage of the "trade union puppet government," and reactionaries throughout Spain were quickly outraged. The final straw would come in the appointments of the Basque and Catalan provisional governments, with the pro-autonomy Basque Nationalist Communion (Comunión Nacionalista Vasca) being appointed in Basque and, even more dreadfully, a near solely CNT government being appointed in Catalonia.

September 23, 1922, a mere eight months after the People's Republic's establishment, a vicious countercoup took place, as Captain General Miguel Primo de Rivera seized control of Parliament, declaring the arrest of every member of government for "treason against the King and Spanish people," installing himself as Regent of the "Spanish Kingdom." The Basque and Catalan regional governments, aware that abolition of their autonomy (and likely arrest of their parliaments) was imminent, were immediately alarmed, and seeking no other choice, immediately appealed to French protection, announcing their secession from the "tyrannic dictatorship of Madrid." They would not be the only in Spain seeking French protection, as Prime Minister Julián Besteiro and President Manuel Azaña, first and last of their position in the People's Republic, sought refuge in Paris, along with several other leftist leaders.

The French response was immediate, as Red forces immediately occupied Catalan and Basque soil declaring it to be underneath their protection. So too was the German response, however, as Spanish colonial possessions throughout Africa were seized by greedy German forces, giving a death blow to the Spanish Colonial Empire. Portugal too would seek to gain from the opportunity, capturing the long disputed region of Olivenza to add to their nation. Still, after brief diplomatic crisis, Rivera seemed unwilling to go to war with the French, Portuguese or German nations, recognizing his own precarious position as ruler of Spain, choosing instead to consolidate his rule and exchange great many diplomatic insult and propaganda.

In Catalonia, the unburdened CNT government quickly reorganized itself as the "Free Territories of Catalonia," or to be more accurately, unorganized itself, with a near complete degeneration of the state along anarchist lines. The only remnants of state authority were self-organized "Revolutionary Councils" throughout the nation, and freely organized "Militias of the People" both deemed necessities to defend the "nation" against the threats of Rivera. These proclamations were met with cheers throughout Barcelona, as the Provisional Catalan Government issued its final decree, a complete dissolution of itself.

In Basque, however, the newly decreed "Republic of Vasca" took much the opposite choice. Organized under the more conservative CNV, there was a practical horror throughout the nation at the thought of the Red French protection, and the possibility of Socialist coup. Strongly centralizing its rule underneath the Vascan Assembly and President, the Vascan Republic put particular emphasis on the creation of a strong military, not just to defend against Rivera, but also their own French protectors. Stuck between a rock and a hard place, the Republic of Vasca is left with many uncertainties about its future and potential development.

All is not well in paradise, however, for even as the people celebrate their independence, cracks rapidly have begun to appear on the surface. French troops dispatched to protect their nations are infamous for their poor conduct, and, particularly in Catalonia where there is no central government to keep the peace, rumors swirl of pillaging, robbery, murder and rape by these occupying forces. The Catalan transition into anarchism, once lauded, has been anything but smooth, as Revolutionary Councils often find themselves in firm dispute with each other and petty squabbling fills their days, even as the ineffective Militia of the People seem to join in the same debaucheries of their French counterparts, often spoken of more with fear than reverence. Even more concerning is rapid increase in pressure on Catalonia from France, as many Revolutionary councils speak of offers of "annexation" into the French "nation," the joining of two revolutionary movements into one, and concerningly, the belief that these offers will eventually become ones "they can't refuse."

In Vasca, the poor conduct of French forces has led to anti-French sentiments becoming widespread throughout the nation, as even Vascan soldiers will sometimes attack Frenchmen they see on the street, and they do not limit themselves to soldiers. Rumors of French or Spanish conspiracy abound, as an increasingly paranoid Vascan Assembly does everything they can to stave off a seemingly inevitable overthrow. Worse, if the mutterings of French soldiers and intelligence from Madrid are to be believed, they may not wholly be incorrect, as Frenchmen quickly tire of their horrible treatment by Vascan countrymen. A conservative, Catholic nation under the protection of Red forces, it is no wonder that conflict seems so ready to brew.

It is not like, however, the alternative to French protection is any more appealing. With brutal purges of Spanish leftists, whom he has accused of conspiring with Catalan and French intelligence, and military junta rule, Rivera has quickly transformed Spain into the model despotic state. Withdrawing all diplomatic relations from the Central Powers, and even neighboring Portugal, over their seizure of Spanish land, Rivera finds himself increasingly isolated upon the European continent, and the poor leader is rapidly beginning to crack underneath the pressure. Military Governors throughout the nation slowly begin forming their own cults of personality, as the good Regent finds himself gradually losing his grip upon the nation. Half-finished public works projects, formed out of the hope of lowering unemployment and winning support, dot the Spanish countryside. Sitting upon a crumbling throne of blood and unfinished buildings, Spain's colonial empire lost, and even core parts of the Iberian peninsula occupied by foreign foes, Rivera's empire of military warlords and purges is a far cry from the golden age he promised. Who knows how long it will last before the damn fool loses his head?

(Sorry for length, but that's my general proposal for the post-war years of Spain)
I really like this idea. The only canon that we have for Spain so far is that Spain itself goes Romanist (TTL's fascist movement in south Europe), and that Catalonia does wind up as an Autonomous Commune in Sorelian France. Do you plan on Vasconia lasting long, or will it be quickly absorbed by either France or Spain?
 
I really like this idea. The only canon that we have for Spain so far is that Spain itself goes Romanist (TTL's fascist movement in south Europe), and that Catalonia does wind up as an Autonomous Commune in Sorelian France. Do you plan on Vasconia lasting long, or will it be quickly absorbed by either France or Spain?

Sad as it is to say, viewing the political situation of Vasconia, it seems inevitable that, without France being pushed out of Iberia, they will eventually fall into French control. More than likely, France will claim a “People’s Revolution” has occurred in Vasconia, more accurately, French soldiers launched their own coup against the Basque government, installing puppet rule with the actual population having little say. For a brief period, Vasconia would be governed by this puppet rule, perhaps nothing more than an independent state in name, before “petitioning” for annexation into France.

France will make a great show of “graciously accepting” the Basque “offer,” and will quickly assimilate it into the French state as an autonomous province, though this autonomy may be little more than just in name, depending on how centralized France intends to be. If France is particularly interested in winning Basque support, they may unite an autonomous People’s Commune of Vasconia with French Navarre, making the “Basque people whole.”

Any scenario where France leaves would inevitably end in Rivera or some Spanish warlord conquering the nascent republic. The nation is truly stuck between a rock and a hard place, and nothing short of a miracle will save it.
 
It should be added that either option would likely be greatly unpopular, after having tasted independence, and a great number of the population would be brimming with discontent at the thought of annexation. Viewing the numerical, industrial and military superiority of either supposed annexing nation, however, it is not likely this discontent would do anything more than lead to angry protests and riots, perhaps even a half-baked conspiracy or two.
 
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