Is it? Venezuela alone is one of the most underpopulated countries by its natural resources (plenty of sun and water, very plain and fertil land( the high llanos),a lot of fossil fuels, very high heavy industry potential, a big coastline and a lot of waterways). If you plant some trees in the low llanos to stabilize the sand dunes (I don't really know why they haven't done it yet) they could be an agricultural powerhouse. If the country is not one of the top 10 richest on the planet is mainly because it has been ruled by one of the most incompetent people on the planet since Pérez Jimenez left.
Miranda's Dream. ¡Por una Latino América fuerte!.- A Gran Colombia TL
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
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you could argue both colombia and venezuela are overpopulated for our economical level, heck at times i'm suprised how solid is colombia with such small economy(at least we're not argentina), we got such little occupation, for me at 150 Million is a nice number, remainder much of the country is mountain and the amazon forrest too
Colombia is mostly inhabited in the andean region and its pacific coast is a nightmare due the heavy rains, leaving the country very isolated due the lack of waterways and small coastal population (it is cheaper to ship something from Cartagena de Indias to Cadiz in Spain than to transport something from Bogotá to Cartagena). On the other hand Venezuela's population concentrate mostly on a huge fertile plain and the coast, the country has plenty of waterways making the region very prone to commerce due the cheap transporting costs (sea and fluvial travel are very cheap) and a country that is very easy to capitalize as it can export agricultural commodities very easily (it was the breadbasket of Perú until it swaped its production to tropical commodities). Venezuela is clearly an undersized economy given its geography and its natural resources. The country has a lot of room to grow due its enormous energetic resources, its mineral wealth, its geography and its rich agriculture
I might have to ask to a venezuelan but a lot (both pro and anti goverment) say any real investment nationwide come very early, since 90's, before they say outside caracas or zulia or other cities was very underdevelop even as bad as colombia at times
Something like this?
You know, we know more Irish come to Columbia in this timeline. It kinda makes me curious to hear what Columbian Spanish sounds like with an Irish accentI'm not sure if you have much background in linguists (I know _I_ don't!) but it would also be curious to see if the different immigrant populations have an influence on the Spanish spoken in Columbia; not just in loan words, but also in the formation of regional accents (kinda like how the Scandinavian and German immigrants are thought by some to have given rise to the Upper Midwestern varieties of English spoken today in Minnesota, Wisconsin, the UP and Dakotas)
I'm no linguist, so I couldn't really know how immigration would affect Colombia's Spanish. There are many loan words, due to a combination of anglophilia and, of course, immigrant populations adapting their words and expressions to their new home. Surnames have also been adapted - like, "Bell" being translated into "Campana" or Wang into "Reyes", "O'Hara" becoming "Ojara" or "Schneider" becoming "Eshnaider." Generally, Irish, English, Germans and Scandinavians are likely to either keep their surname or adapt it like this; Italians, Spaniards, French, Arabians keep their original surnames; and Indians, Chinese and Eastern Europeans adopt new Hispanic surnames. This, of course, is not a fixed rule or anything. Southern European generally move to cities and work in industry, in Caracas, Cartagena, Santafe, Hispaniola, etc. Spaniards, British, Arabs and Irishmen settle along the Magdalena, in the Southern Andes and the Venezuelan interior and become small farmers. Indians and Chinese settle along the coasts and become farm hands.
A factor to take into account is extensive mestizaje among the different immigrant population, with native Colombians and also with other immigrants. Immigrant communities remain small and generally integrate quickly into the mainstream, so that by the second generation most already only speak Spanish. Aside from cultural additions to gastronomy and celebrations, I think a slight difference in pronunciation could be observed - such as pronouncing l instead of r on account of Asian immigration.
Indeed. Also, I think my table reflects how developed countries' populations tend to grow - explosive growth at first, followed by slower growth after a demographic transition has been achieved.
My Gran Colombia, with a size of around 3,5 million square kilometers, would have a population density of 43 people per square kilometer. Just 3 people above OTL Colombia's density. It's true that it could support many more people, but as Nivek points out a lot of the territory would be inhospitable jungles. In any case, I think 150 million is a realistic estimate. And those resources will be much more developed due to Colombia bein stable, united and prosperous. Thanks for the information regarding the llanos though. I'll look into it...
That is more complex, just put back the old map to see which state represent each OTL region, that way can understand where is where, if you want to do that map..would be easier for us, but a lot of work for you, would be nice.
Venezuela had the fith largest GDP per capita on the planet in the 50's and most of Venezuela's civil constructions were done under Pérez Jimenez. There is a reason why there were so many Europeans in Venezuela at some point.
When all the world was destroyed...and as economist, GDP is a tricky figure, a small country thanks a oil boom at the time could overlead(isn't it middle east?) and more important..Venezuela was as bad a colombia(some people argue both nation are as bad as the other) i think venezuela in fact like colombia, is overpopulated.
A lot of the land is inhospitable, but I was never talking about those regions in the first place.
The red region could be one of the richest regions on earth. It has rich agriculture and a lot of gas and oil (Venezuela's oil is heavy but it is still cheaper to refine than US or Nigerian oil). On top of that the region has a nice interior sea/lake that facilitates trade very easily making the whole lake of Marcaibo as a secure and connected metro area. The blue region has a lot of mineral wealth and a big coastline with temperate weather. The yellow region has a huge agricultural potential that is mostly unused due the shift to a petrol based economy in the forth republic. The green region has a lot of jungles, but it is also a coltan producing region and one of the best regions of the planet for iron and steel industry. As a whole Venezuela is just big wasted potential. Its geographical situation is much different than that from Colombia that has very little useable coastline and mostly an empty interior outside of the Andes
Venezuela's currency was a currency for international transactions (like the dolar,the pound or the DM) accepted by the IMF deep into the seventies. The country transitioned to an oil economy in 1974 with Carlos Andres Pérez. Before that it mostly relied on agriculture and manufacturing to match its internal demand (oil was used to finance the goverment).
A lot is dessert(how i know, as i have to cross a desert to go to maracaibo) other is very tropical and open but empty, the rest is like a more plain colombia, countryside, rivers, and little mountains til you got back to the Orinoco(a former binational region but ended up mostly venezuela..as colombia don't know how to manage his own land..aka panama) the rest...i think is mostly venezuela like colombia was never attractive for no one.
Another need to check the official data...unironically 80's onward, venezeual currency was so low, colombia smuggled(and still do) products from venezuela en masse, IIRC they depreciated their currency so much to won more via oil.
I take offense this one, the coastline is perfect for trade and ships(ask how Cartagena and Barranquilla growth thanks to trade) and other is nice for tourist(Cartagena and Santa Marta) the rest the andes break the country in fourt but the Middle Magdalena(lack of name in english) is perfect for agriculture, the same the great VALLEY OF CAUCA, and the altiplano, the rest is seems all centralize in bogota/cundinamarca, Antioquia, the pacific and the rest was forced to fight for the scraps.
Venezuela was a very attractive country for immigrants until the 70s unlike Colombia
You can't tell me to check up the facts when you are talking about 2 different periods. In the 80s Venezuela had a lot of economic disadjustments and it was when black friday happened. I was talking about the 70s when Venezuela's currency was overvalued
The pacific coast of Colombia is mostly empty and the caribbean coastline is "good" for trade because there is not other alternative for commerce. Cartagena or Barranquilla are awfully connected to the main population centers of the country and the region itself is not wealthy enough to boost its own economy and relies purely on trade to prosper. The coastline in Venezuela is connected smoothly with the agricultural regions of the country and it is very close to very large reserves of natural resources. Venezuela as a whole is a much more attractive country economically than Colombia (only from a geographical point of view)
I'll see if I can. Shouldn't be that difficult... anyway, here's the map. Amazonas is part of Boyaca, Miranda of Orinoco, Oriente of Azuay, and Neiva of Cundinamarca.
A lot of the land is inhospitable, but I was never talking about those regions in the first place.
The red region could be one of the richest regions on earth. It has rich agriculture and a lot of gas and oil (Venezuela's oil is heavy but it is still cheaper to refine than US or Nigerian oil). On top of that the region has a nice interior sea/lake that facilitates trade very easily making the whole lake of Marcaibo as a secure and connected metro area. The blue region has a lot of mineral wealth and a big coastline with temperate weather. The yellow region has a huge agricultural potential that is mostly unused due the shift to a petrol based economy in the forth republic. The green region has a lot of jungles, but it is also a coltan producing region and one of the best regions of the planet for iron and steel industry. As a whole Venezuela is just big wasted potential. Its geographical situation is much different than that from Colombia that has very little useable coastline and mostly an empty interior outside of the Andes
All those resources are being well used ITTL. Maracaibo was one of the first parts of the country to develop steam navigation, and it serves as a railway hub. The green and blue areas are centers of agriculture and settlement by immigrants, and also of iron industry. As a whole, Venezuela is the industrial and commercial heart of Gran Colombia, though they mainly produce cash crops, meat, coal and iron right now. The wheat and corn that feeds them is produced in Cundinamarca, Boyaca and Ecuador.
Now with the Map and @Fernando III commentary.. 170 Million is feasible,even possible, i can see dominican(and later haitians..what will be with those guys?) moving back to venezuela and Pacific Coast of Colombia Respectly and helping more population, regardless what happen later on, 180 Million is even as 'the zenith', heck japan Zenith was 130 and that was an island.
Depends if we get more carribean island(whistle), 200+ Is even a reality and tie with ITTL Mexico as the biggest Spanish Speaking nation
I went with a relatively conservative estimate out of fear of appearing "wanky" and unrealistic, but I may revise my numbers upwards in the future. Fernando III's information is most valuable for his purpose. As for Haiti, they play a big part on the future, but I'm focusing on international diplomacy for now. Can't help but be excited for the future in that regard!
The Thing is..Maybe we're mental challeged, i consider colombia overpopulated, ditto venezuela(dunno Ecuador, seems fine for their economy size so far), the rest is up and different, maybe OTL disaster make us hard to see things different? specially as in colombia used to breed like rabbits and large family were the norm poor and middle class, only the rich have smaller(aka 2-3 childrens) family in the era. Still using modern demographics and having some 'breaking points' , the demographics could be very realisitc higher we thought.
Assuming if Britain and France go to war, would Colombia try to go for the Caribbean with the two powers distracted?
I think a certain determinism affects us. The idea of a nation with 180 million or more seems simply strange.
Well, the UK and Colombia are fairly aligned when it comes to diplomacy. The UK knows that Colombia holding the Spanish possessions, either as vassals or territories, will open them to British investment and commercial interests, so they are actually likely to support the enterprise. France would not be so enthusiastic, but it wouldn't oppose it fiercely either. Doing it while both are distracted would be good tho. The greatest danger is the US, which could declare war to protect its Caribbean interests. That's why Colombia's making some diplomatic moves...
So let me guess? Second British-American war? Britain involving itself with the CSA? That’s definitely be enough to let Colombia steamroll through the French and Spanish possessions in the Caribbean? Would the British be willing to sell its Caribbean territories though?
In general even french little island are more prestige, the same carribean, the only one i think Gran Colombia would want is Trinidad(and maybe tobago too) as those island fullify the old colombia(those were venezuelan before spanish loss them) and other islands work mostly for prestige, i think they could use a threat either nation to back down a conflict but generally..i doubt it as the only prize worth to get(Trinidad and Tobago) could get it later, at this point the island are mostly empty too. Indian Labourers are yet to come.
Yeah, when the green revolution boom allowed thing, we forgot we change migatory pattern too, Dominica repulbic for example, without trujillo and wars with haiti will have much bigger population and both Colombia and Venezuela(dunno, how 'full' is ecuador for you) are empty, we can see Dominincan emigrated to the 'mainland' and the remaning would fill numbers too, ditto Haitians trying their luck in Dominica and later the 'mainland'(Continente in spanish?) plus other inmigrants(spanish and italians) could target it over argentina or brazil too.
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