Against all odds, the Zapatistas had prevailed, and although their victory came at a pyrrhic cost to their core strength and a tragic loss of life, the dream of a Mexico which truly embodied the ideals of Villa and Zapata lived on—for now, at least.
It would be nice to know what happened in Moscow after the last we saw of Gorbachev. Unless the USSR completely collapses as otl I don't see them fully droping Cuba. Is their source of sugar and an escencial asset to pressure USA. If they drop Cuba they lose the capacity to chek on USA. IF they drop Korea they only lost a buffer state for the smaller of their frontiers.If the USSR has not collapsed pretty much on OTL schedule, why is Cuba undergoing a "Special Period?"
It would be nice to know what happened in Moscow after the last we saw of Gorbachev. Unless the USSR completely collapses as otl I don't see them fully droping Cuba. Is their source of sugar and an escencial asset to pressure USA. If they drop Cuba they lose the capacity to chek on USA. IF they drop Korea they only lost a buffer state for the smaller of their frontiers.
I agree that is likely that the russians reduce the levels of aid and probable give Cuba a cue about not getting too deep into Mexico. Cuba will likely experience difficulties and limited reforms like in otl, but with a surviving and reforming (although strugling) Soviet Union (or Union of Sovereing States, whatever) they could go for otl post Fidel reforms earlier. If the SU/USS keeps most of its territory and creates a sucesor for the COMECON (the old satellites would get finlandified, they may be allowed to go democratic and retire from the WarPac but wont be able to join either the european community or NATO, they may be able to avoid a neoCOMECON but will likely form their own neutral economical and security union, keep some economical ties to the SU while getting as close to the euros as they are allowed). What I mean is that we wont see the complete retirement of Russia from their spheres of interests as we saw in otl. They would probable try to compromise salvage what the can and refrain from escalation and confrontation with the west but will keep Cuba as a garantee to keep USA in cheek in areas like the middle east or eastern europe. "Don't put nukes in Turkey or I will do the same in Cuba" kinda thing.I read back in the canon, and while the actual TL post does not make it clear, author commentary in other posts does imply Cuba will be put on short rations. However
These are solid points. It may be that Bush, seeing trouble brewing on the Rio Grande, decides to capitalize on restraint Gorbachev is showing and takes conciliatory steps to encourage that tendency. The ask, implied, communicated through back channels, or even openly if diplomatically uttered publicly, is that the Soviets back away precisely from "pressuring" the USA, with a quid pro quo that in return benefits the Soviets get from a special relationship with Cuba can be met by favorable US policies. Sugar for instance; I suppose the US can offer via various incentive schemes and relaxing trade policy to match any sugar losses the Soviets would suffer from alienating Havana.
I would think the realistic thing for Gorbachev to do in response is to waffle and compromise. Havana suffers a cutback in the level of support they have from the USSR, and Gorbachev signals a distance from Castroite adventurism...But he also insists as the price of this, perhaps foregoing some material incentives the US would prefer to offer, that the USA not mistake this for a free hand in trying to bring Castro down, and that the USA tolerate without complaint the USSR sustaining some aid for Cuba on a measurably lower scale. The austerity is presented to Castro as being frugality the Soviet situation requires and in no way admitted to be a deal with the Yankee devil.
So that would explain some serious belt tightening in Havana and be consistent with what we have been told so far, but that does not rule out Cuba still being under implicit Soviet protection. Some of the neoliberal measures Castro took OTL such as promoting tourism in Cuba might still be in order; certainly no matter how the Kremlin tried to pretty it up, and despite proclaiming a break with Moscow is not in Castro's interest, there will be some bitterness in Cuba anyway.
The upshot would be that Cuba has a reduced aid package coming from the USSR, and is more of a loose cannon than before, on a tight budget, but better off than OTL because some Soviet support continues and a strained but still special relationship with the USSR remains.
It would be possible for Gorbachev to cut them off completely as OTL, but the Soviet Union would pay a prestige price for that, especially if the USA then invaded and forced a regime change--which I believe the author has ruled out, wisely since that would turn into the queen of all quagmires if we did that. But Gorbachev slamming the door on Castro completely would leave that possibility open at least theoretically, and that would torpedo Soviet claims to stand for progress in any meaningful sense.
The difference between the Soviet Union surviving and it collapsing boils down to significant numbers of Soviet citizens continuing to have some hope in an ultimate vindication of the Leninist concept of Communism being justified. Take that away and we can expect the Russians to pull the plug on it, just as OTL. Therefore there are some ideological limits on what a nominally Soviet regime in Moscow can do--leaving the Cubans to struggle economically is one thing; throwing them to the Yankee wolf is quite another. We can square the circle if Gorbachev holds out for some effectively binding commitment from Uncle Sam that Cuba is off limits for US intervention, then the Russians can credit themselves for doing something to preserve revolutionary advances.
I think even before the POD, that ship had sailed already. With the development of the final Berlin Wall crisis, whose proximate cause was some DDR government flack overstating how far the regime had decided to relax crossing restrictions, if the DDR and Soviet response were not to crack down hard and violently, creating a severe rupture with the West and quite possibly triggering general nuclear war (surely some West Berliners and even NATO three power troops or officials, quite probably American, would get caught in the general crossfire--even if none intervened to prevent the reactionary crackdown), then the Soviet grip on Eastern Europe is effectively broken at that point; the former "satellite" peoples escaping the net is a done deal. Oh, at any later date, in the limited time window before the sand rapidly runs out of that hourglass completely, the Kremlin could double down on reaction and perhaps prevent some, or acting rapidly and firmly enough, all of the Warsaw Pact nations from withdrawing, and impose some version of their nominally "socialist worker/peasant" party ruled states continuing--via sullen terror. Legitimacy, poor as it was before, would be far worse. The cost to the USSR would be high, and the risk of general war quite dangerous.the old satellites would get finlandified, they may be allowed to go democratic and retire from the WarPac but wont be able to join either the european community or NATO, they may be able to avoid a neoCOMECON but will likely form their own neutral economical and security union, keep some economical ties to the SU while getting as close to the euros as they are allowed)
There is some question what this process of disintegrating Soviet power outside Soviet boundaries means to those boundaries too. Certainly the Baltic states, Lithuania anyway, have no prospect of being willing participants in the Soviet system. The next most problematic for Moscow are Ukraine and perhaps the Caucasian republics are equally fractious. I would not be at all sure Belarus is strongly secessionist, and the Central Asian 'Stans have no significant independence movement to speak of at all--they were expelled from the Russian system under Yeltsin, entirely against their will.
I would hope Gorbachev can manage to negotiate an acceptable deal for Ukraine...
That they do, and the entire world is stunned at the bite's veracity.Looks like the Zapatista's have some bite to go with their bark.
I wasn't planning to do an update about them, but a certain set of Mexican-born journalists will start to become very important to the story very soon.Once again, Roberto, You have written another great chapter for this Story. I do wonder if you are going to write a chapter on the foreign journalists who covered the offensive.
It most likely will! In fact, I used Grozny as a model for describing the Battle of San Cristóbal—on @RamscoopRaider's suggestion, of course.Also, You know, If the Soviet Union never collapses in TTL, and the first Chechen war never happens, The battle of San Cristóbal could be a stand-in for the Battle of Grozny for our TL.
Fixed, thanks for pointing that out!A minor typo here, just fyi.
Back?? It never left!My summer just turned out to be a lot busier than I expected, and this update took longer to research than usual. Rest assured, I'm still working on this project most days of the week!Great to see this back.
Awesome! I'm really glad you're enjoying the story.I had to suppress cheering out loud when I saw there was a new update.
I was not disappointed.
Now going back to Mexico, why would western europe and Latin America back Bartlett after the failure of the negotiations? He is still a well know dictator notorious for his represive government. In the early 90's with dictatorship and repression going away in most of Latin America I don't see the region or western european countries like France buying into his version of the story, even if the zapatistas don't have a platform of comunication like his. What governments in the region would support him? I can only see Colombia and some central americans ones.
If the USSR has not collapsed pretty much on OTL schedule, why is Cuba undergoing a "Special Period?"
Maybe the Soviet Union is trying to bolster its economy and stop propping cuba and north Korea? Let's just wait for Roberto.
Well, I was going to wait until the next update, but alright, I'll spill the beans. Here's what has happened in Moscow since August of 1991:It would be nice to know what happened in Moscow after the last we saw of Gorbachev. Unless the USSR completely collapses as otl I don't see them fully droping Cuba. Is their source of sugar and an escencial asset to pressure USA. If they drop Cuba they lose the capacity to chek on USA. IF they drop Korea they only lost a buffer state for the smaller of their frontiers.
These are solid points. It may be that Bush, seeing trouble brewing on the Rio Grande, decides to capitalize on restraint Gorbachev is showing and takes conciliatory steps to encourage that tendency. The ask, implied, communicated through back channels, or even openly if diplomatically uttered publicly, is that the Soviets back away precisely from "pressuring" the USA, with a quid pro quo that in return benefits the Soviets get from a special relationship with Cuba can be met by favorable US policies. Sugar for instance; I suppose the US can offer via various incentive schemes and relaxing trade policy to match any sugar losses the Soviets would suffer from alienating Havana.
I would think the realistic thing for Gorbachev to do in response is to waffle and compromise. Havana suffers a cutback in the level of support they have from the USSR, and Gorbachev signals a distance from Castroite adventurism...But he also insists as the price of this, perhaps foregoing some material incentives the US would prefer to offer, that the USA not mistake this for a free hand in trying to bring Castro down, and that the USA tolerate without complaint the USSR sustaining some aid for Cuba on a measurably lower scale. The austerity is presented to Castro as being frugality the Soviet situation requires and in no way admitted to be a deal with the Yankee devil.
So that would explain some serious belt tightening in Havana and be consistent with what we have been told so far, but that does not rule out Cuba still being under implicit Soviet protection. Some of the neoliberal measures Castro took OTL such as promoting tourism in Cuba might still be in order; certainly no matter how the Kremlin tried to pretty it up, and despite proclaiming a break with Moscow is not in Castro's interest, there will be some bitterness in Cuba anyway.
I really hope this doesn't have anything to do with an upcoming massacre. I remember that in our TL hundred of thousands of Mexicans came out in support of the Zapatistas. I doubt such a thing would go unopposed especially by Manuel Bartlett.I wasn't planning to do an update about them, but a certain set of Mexican-born journalists will start to become very important to the story very soon.
Cool. I guess I overestimated russian strength but now everything makes sense. The only caveat I still have is Chávez still attemping his rebellion without the Caracazo. I don't think he could even start without the whole secuence of events.That they do, and the entire world is stunned at the bite's veracity.
I wasn't planning to do an update about them, but a certain set of Mexican-born journalists will start to become very important to the story very soon.
It most likely will! In fact, I used Grozny as a model for describing the Battle of San Cristóbal—on @RamscoopRaider's suggestion, of course.
Fixed, thanks for pointing that out!
Back?? It never left!My summer just turned out to be a lot busier than I expected, and this update took longer to research than usual. Rest assured, I'm still working on this project most days of the week!
Awesome! I'm really glad you're enjoying the story.
When I said "western leaders" I had the U.S. and Canada in mind rather than Europe. That said, it's definitely a stretch to say that most leaders support Bartlett—I'll fix that.
Bush's support of Bartlett is really more tacit than vocal, because as you said, he doesn't want to be seen as standing up for an unpopular dictator at election time. However, he's seeing an even stronger primary challenge than OTL from Pat Buchanan, and he really doesn't want to take the side of the Zapatistas because that would further anger the conservative base. So rather than publicly disputing Bartlett's narrative, he condemns the Palenque attacks themselves and expresses hope that a peaceful solution can still be found despite the failure of the peace negotiations.
John Turner has also refrained from sticking up for the Zapatistas mainly because former Ambassador Raymond Chrétien, was killed in the attacks. Though he is personally deeply suspicious of Bartlett, to accuse him of engineering the death of a Canadian citizen would be a heavy charge to lay, especially because there is no evidence to back it up. He isn't actively thrilled about Bartlett's military campaign, but he can't do much to affect what goes on in Mexico anyway so he decides not to make a show of condemning President Bartlett.
In addition to Turner and Bush, Bartlett has the support of Colombia as you suggested, as well as by the Guatemalans (who are wary of the Zapatistas' threat to their border security and want to see them dealt with), Honduras, Paraguay, Peru and the Dominican Republic. Certainly not "most" governments as I initially claimed, but enough to ensure that Bartlett isn't seen as a rogue actor.
Well, I was going to wait until the next update, but alright, I'll spill the beans. Here's what has happened in Moscow since August of 1991:
Gorbachev worked with Yeltsin to arrest the Gang of Eight. The August Coup was nipped in the bud and the New Union Treaty was signed on schedule, converting the USSR into the Union of Sovereign States with Gorbachev as President of the Union and Yeltsin as President of the Russian Federative Republic. However, the Communist Party still collapses and Gorbachev realizes that if he wants to be re-elected President in 1995, Yeltsin's support will be crucial. Thus he is forced to concede on many matters to Yeltsin, who is no warmer than OTL to the idea of giving away free oil to the Cubans. So the Special Period still happens, although it's a bit less severe than OTL because Gorbachev doesn't cut them off completely.
In addition, Gorbachev and Bush strike an agreement similar to the one proposed here:
As @Shevek23 hypothesizes, the agreement still leads to some bitterness in Cuba, which will prompt Castro to renew his efforts at encouraging instability in Mexico, partly out of spite and partly because he realizes that the only way to extricate the country from depression is if a friendly regime comes to power in a nearby country.
As for what happens to the Eastern Bloc as a whole, I'd rather leave most of that up to the readers' imagination, as I fear it would cloud the focus of the timeline to spend too much time on affairs outside of Mexico. Still, the predictions made by @Damian0358, @EnvarKadri and other posters sound like they would fit well within the fabric of the storyline!
As for what happens to the Eastern Bloc as a whole, I'd rather leave most of that up to the readers' imagination, as I fear it would cloud the focus of the timeline to spend too much time on affairs outside of Mexico. Still, the predictions sound like they would fit well within the fabric of the storyline!
It's 1992. I'd have to check but I believe OTL long before Gorbachev was overthrown the Eastern Bloc nations not actually in the USSR were gone already.As for what happens to the Eastern Bloc as a whole, I'd rather leave most of that up to the readers' imagination, as I fear it would cloud the focus of the timeline to spend too much time on affairs outside of Mexico
During 1989 and 1990, the Berlin Wall came down, borders opened, and free elections ousted Communist regimes everywhere in eastern Europe. In late 1991 the Soviet Union itself dissolved into its component republics. With stunning speed, the Iron Curtain was lifted and the Cold War came to an end.
As I mentioned in this post a while back:Cool. I guess I overestimated russian strength but now everything makes sense. The only caveat I still have is Chávez still attemping his rebellion without the Caracazo. I don't think he could even start without the whole secuence of events.
In otl the president popularity was abismal not only because his austerity plan. Austerity skyrocked poverty so thousands of people started to looting bussinesses for food all over the country, but specially in Caracas. The police was overwhelmed by the number of looters so instead of repressing them they managed the looting to avoid cassualties. In response, the president called the army to do what the police couldn't. The death toll was betweem 300 and and more than 2000 (most of the disappeared). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracazo
Chávez only revolted 3 years after the start of the Caracazo so he clearly was pacient enough to wait for his chance. In otl after calling Andres Pérez government a "mourderous regime" and revolt agaist him and fail and still enjoy a good amount of popularity among the population because it was a murderous regime that called the army to murder rioters and demostrators in the streets and most of them dissapearance! Without all of that he wouldn't even get the support of his own brigade!
The Caracazo still happens, because despite higher oil prices Andrés Pérez’s initial privatizations still anger the people of Caracas. I was going to include a sentence in there about how the Caracazo only lasted six days rather than nine, but deleted it to save space.
I can't wait for the 1992 elections. It will be a wild ride.Bush's support of Bartlett is really more tacit than vocal, because as you said, he doesn't want to be seen as standing up for an unpopular dictator at election time. However, he's seeing an even stronger primary challenge than OTL from Pat Buchanan, and he really doesn't want to take the side of the Zapatistas because that would further anger the conservative base. So rather than publicly disputing Bartlett's narrative, he condemns the Palenque attacks themselves and expresses hope that a peaceful solution can still be found despite the failure of the peace negotiations.
That's just two posts down the line, and the next one should be coming soon!I can't wait for the 1992 elections. It will be a wild ride.
Nice to know. Keep up with the good work, Roberto.That's just two posts down the line, and the next one should be coming soon!
I know this was only a small part of the latest update, and not at all the main point, but I was really taken aback by Raymond Chrétien's death. That seems like it could have a big impact in Canada, if only on Jean… curious to see what happens with that.