Non-parallelisms in TL 191

[Thon Taddeo]

TL 191 is well known for its parallelisms with OTL, some being on the nose, like the launch of Operation Blackbeard on June 22, 1941, or the fact that the Freedom Party was founded by one Anthony Dresser. But there are many ways in which Tl 191 is quite different than OTL.

For example, Featherston and the Freedom party were created as expies of Hitler and the Nazi party. But the two fascist movements were different in ideology, governing strategy and goals.

The ideology of Featherston and his movement is about revenge. Revenge against the Yankees for winning the First Great War, revenge against the blacks for the Red Rebellion, revenge against the Whigs for losing the war, etc. While the Freedom party is viciously racist against black Confederates, the party seems ambivalent or positively disposed to other oppressed racial groups, like American Indians, Chicanos and Jews. The Freedom Party's racism against blacks is very different from Nazi antisemitism. While blacks are associated with leftism due to the Red Rebellion, there is no overarching conspiracy theory like Jewish Bolshevism. There also is no quest for Confederate living space. While Jake the Snake wants the territories lost in GWI back, plus interest, there are no plans to eradicate white Yankees and settler virtuous southern farmers in Ohio. While the Freedom party is white supremacist, there is no concept of an "Aryan race" which needs to be protected from degeneration.

While governing, the Freedom party seems to work within the system, and not replace it outright. The flag isn't changed, there are the Freedom Party guards, but they don't seem as powerful or influential as OTL's SS and Waffen-SS were. Featherston's successor is the Confederate VP, etc.

A few other ones:

Jazz would probably be limited to the South, and unfortunately it might not have survived the population reductions

With a Central Powers victory in Europe, would artistic movements like dada or German expressionism come to prominence?

 

[Cire]

One of the things which surprised me about the end of the series was the manner in which Turtledove dealt with the issue of Marxism in Russia and in the rest of Europe as well. In our time line there is the 1917 Russian Revolution, the failed 1919 Hungarian Revolution, and also the 1919 failed Bavarian Soviet Republic, but Turtledove seems to sweep all of this away by saying, Oh well, Stalin and his cohorts died in a failed 1925 rebellion against the Czar, and no one uttered the phrase "Marxism" ever again.

Well, what about the hundreds of millions of presumably unhappy peasants who are living all across Eurasia in the 191 Universe? Presumably their conditions are just as bad as those experienced by the peasants living in our timeline, so why wouldn't they try and rebel against a system they believe is oppressing them. I really thought that Turtledove would squeeze in a Marxist-Trotsky revolution in Russia towards the end of In at the Death, especially with the Czar no longer receiving support from England and France, but nope, didn't happen, and I consider this to be a huge almost unexplained non-parallel between our timeline and the 191 universe which wasn't explained very well.

The book said that Stalin was killed in 1925, but I don't believe that it said anything about Mao or Leon Trotsky?

 

[Trotsky]

It wasn't a random uprising in 1925 in Tsaritsyn by Stalin and some cronies; it was the winding down of a very long, and brutal, Russian civil war that began with the turmoil unleashed by the collapse of Russian military power in 1917. Then the Romanovs cracked down on the surviving Bolsheviks and managed to kill most of them off. The last book mentioned a few of them surviving underground for the past twenty years, but there were probably too few to make a difference.

 

[Cire]

but there were probably too few to make a difference

But still, that doesn't explain why the tens of millions of peasants living across all of Russia and China would suddenly give up and except the yoke of feudalism around their necks for the rest of eternity? In our timeline there was a failed Russian Revolution in 1905, and maybe another failed revolt around 1898, but in our case the peasants didn't give up, they just kept trying until they overthrew the Czar. Does the book say what happened to Leon Trotsky or Mao?

 

[Trotsky]

But still, that doesn't explain why the tens of millions of peasants living across all of Russia and China would suddenly give up and except the yoke of feudalism around their necks for the rest of eternity? In our timeline there was a failed Russian Revolution in 1905, and maybe another failed revolt around 1898, but in our case the peasants didn't give up, they just kept trying until they overthrew the Czar. Does the book say what happened to Leon Trotsky or Mao?

Wait, are you actually saying that in late October 1917 millions of Russians collectively thought, at the same time, "You know what? Fuck this shit" and rose en masse to replace the Czar with Lenin's guys?

I mean, for starters, the monarchy had been gone for months already...

 

[Cire]

"You know what? Fuck this shit"

Yeah, when people are being severely mistreated they tend to do exactly just that. But I tell you what, you win the argument by virtue of using the "F" word and repeating yourself over and over. You're right, I'm wrong, no need to carry this discussion any further.

 

[Trotsky]

Yeah, when people are being severely mistreated they tend to do exactly just that. But I tell you what, you win the argument by virtue of using the "F" word and repeating yourself over and over. You're right, I'm wrong, no need to carry this discussion any further.

I think I may have a very slightly different interpretation of the Russian Revolutions of 1917 than you, but if you're choosing to disengage over the use of the "Fuck" word then so be it.

 

[Tocomocho]

The last book mentions the commies doing suicide bombings in the 1940s and generally being a pain on the ass for the Russians in the home front.

 

[RaspingLeech]

Terrorism in general is an issue much earlier than OTL, Flora mentions at one point they'll need to have security screenings in sporting events and public transportation because of it.

 

[scourge]

Terrorism in general is an issue much earlier than OTL, Flora mentions at one point they'll need to have security screenings in sporting events and public transportation because of it.

They seem to have the full package too. Suicide bombers, truck, car and even a boat bomb at one point

 

[A Piece of History]

What are the chances that Newport News, Virginia and the other American (both US and the former Confederate) cities hit with superbombs will have to deal with pockets of radiation?

 

[GDIS Pathe]

But still, that doesn't explain why the tens of millions of peasants living across all of Russia and China would suddenly give up and except the yoke of feudalism around their necks for the rest of eternity? In our timeline there was a failed Russian Revolution in 1905, and maybe another failed revolt around 1898, but in our case the peasants didn't give up, they just kept trying until they overthrew the Czar. Does the book say what happened to Leon Trotsky or Mao?

The serfs were freed under Alexander II. The failed revolution in 1905 was caused by Nicky's incompetence and the Russo Japanese War. The peasants didn't "give in" nor did they "keep trying" the circumstances which allowed for them to threaten the Monarchy relied upon the Russian Empire being destabilized by outside factors. The end of the RCW in favour off the Whites would have utterly crushed the Bolsheviks and with the absolutist Nicky II out of the way the Empire would likely be more willing to reform.

Trotsky is probably dead killed by the Whites, while Mao is likely irrelevant the circumstances which lead him to become leader of the CCP were unique and likely wouldn't be replicated in tl191

What are the chances that Newport News, Virginia and the other American (both US and the former Confederate) cities hit with superbombs will have to deal with pockets of radiation?

Zero

 

[Cire]

the circumstances which allowed for them to threaten the Monarchy relied upon the Russian Empire being destabilized by outside factors.

I respectfully disagree.

 

[Odinson]

The failed revolution in 1905

which reminds me, the 1905 revolution never happened in timeline 191, and neither did the Russo Japanese War.

Instead Japan fought a war with Spain in 1905 over the Philippines.

 

[RaspingLeech]

What are the chances that Newport News, Virginia and the other American (both US and the former Confederate) cities hit with superbombs will have to deal with pockets of radiation?

Assuming they're the same air burst detonations as OTL, no more than Hiroshima or Nagasaki experienced.

 

[Allochronian]

There was an earlier post made that also talked about non-parallelism in TL 191: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/non-parallellism-in-tl-191.223629/#post-5389272

The ideology of Featherston and his movement is about revenge. Revenge against the Yankees for winning the First Great War, revenge against the blacks for the Red Rebellion, revenge against the Whigs for losing the war, etc. While the Freedom party is viciously racist against black Confederates, the party seems ambivalent or positively disposed to other oppressed racial groups, like American Indians, Chicanos and Jews. The Freedom Party's racism against blacks is very different from Nazi antisemitism. While blacks are associated with leftism due to the Red Rebellion, there is no overarching conspiracy theory like Jewish Bolshevism. There also is no quest for Confederate living space. While Jake the Snake wants the territories lost in GWI back, plus interest, there are no plans to eradicate white Yankees and settler virtuous southern farmers in Ohio. While the Freedom party is white supremacist, there is no concept of an "Aryan race" which needs to be protected from degeneration.

I also have similar views when comparing both parties. The CF party's goals were oversimplified and lacked a "cultural mythology". Despite technically having White Nationalistic ideas, they were okay with brown-skinned Sonoran/Chihuahuan Confederates and possibly with underground pro-Confederate Native Sequoyans. I suppose as long as you weren't Black, you were, at the very least, tolerated. There probably would have been some kind of "unwritten rule" of segregation between Whites and Browns, but was not enforced as much compared to the Black population. In terms of a "conspiracy", I thought that the idea of every Black Confederate being a Red was something that Featherston already did during his radio speeches.

There is a head canon idea that I have thought about if Featherston chose to adopt some kind of racial purity ideology: He could have enforced a type of secular education in Confederate schools where schoolchildren had to learn about scientific racist theories. I can see Featherston forcing schools to teach Evolution. Not because it's true, but because it encourages the idea that Whites are the most "evolved" human being, while Blacks are the "least evolved" type of human.

While governing, the Freedom party seems to work within the system, and not replace it outright. The flag isn't changed, there are the Freedom Party guards, but they don't seem as powerful or influential as OTL's SS and Waffen-SS were. Featherston's successor is the Confederate VP, etc.

A few other ones:

Jazz would probably be limited to the South, and unfortunately it might not have survived the population reductions

With a Central Powers victory in Europe, would artistic movements like dada or German expressionism come to prominence?

I thought the flag was changed to the Confederate Freedom Party flag? Or is this another type of fanon? I don't remember the phrase "Jake the Snake" in the books, so I assumed it was something fans thought of, even though there are at least three people whose nickname is "Jake the snake".

Jazz would still exist and survive, but it would not be as famous as it was OTL.

I don't know much about artistic movements to speculate.​

 

[Nivek]

the failed 1919 Hungarian Revolution, and also the 1919 failed Bavarian Soviet Republic

Germany and A-H won, if there a revolution in hungary is more nationalist that socialist or might not happen at all, ditto Bavaria and the spartakist, not everything will be sunshine and rainbows but that is better, but seems socialist did was a issue in western europe, that is how action francaise got their power and the unholy Conservative-Facist alliance.

Another is the 'churchill warning' that churchill knew featherston was brutal and he demanded as ally the dixie sailor to behave in the carribean, as any black there was a british citizen under his protection.

 

[A Piece of History]

I thought the flag was changed to the Confederate Freedom Party flag? Or is this another type of fanon? I don't remember the phrase "Jake the Snake" in the books, so I assumed it was something fans thought of, even though there are at least three people whose nickname is "Jake the snake".

If you look at the covers of the Settling Accounts story arc, then it clearly shows the Freedom Party flag being used in the place of the Confederate national flag, which is bad for me because I hate the Freedom Party flag.

No one in the books calls Jake 'the Snake'. That's a fan creation. I have no idea where that came from.

 

[Kaiser Chris]

One interesting non-Parallel was the Japanese Empire's status as a third party faction in the Second Great War. OTL, while an argument can be made for the Soviets and WAllies to be distinct entities separate from each other, at the end of the day both sides fought the same enemies and had no over tactical and strategic goals against each other until 1944. Here, after the Japanese are able to prevent any U.S ability to launch an offensive in the Western Pacific, Japan straight up backstabs Britain and Russia by launching invasions of Southeast Asia and Siberia respectively in order to clear East Asia of the colonial powers.

This never goes unpunished thanks to Britain and Russia having to deal with the Central Powers, and by the end of the war Japan could be said to be the most advantageous winner due to coming out without any superbomb attacks and their homeland unscathed, while at the same time setting up the Co-Prosperity Sphere and clearing the Pacific out of any European powers. It's a pretty interesting divergence to have a multi-polar WW2 when most other alternate history pieces with the time period have a seperate faction side with the Allies, even if they are pretty independent.

While there is some minor foreshadowing about a potential Cold War with Japan, I don't think this will be feasible unless Japan decides to go outside of its sphere of influence and create a global empire. Germany is stuck trying to rebuild Europe, while America has to deal with terrorist Mormons, a non repentant CSA that has to somehow be reintegrated, and Canadian Nationalists. Both superpowers will be far too busy with Europe/Africa and the Americas respectively to go after Japan. Meaning that TL-191's future will probably be a tri-polar world between Germany, America, and Japan.

 

[Nivek]

One interesting non-Parallel was the Japanese Empire's status as a third party faction in the Second Great War. OTL, while an argument can be made for the Soviets and WAllies to be distinct entities separate from each other, at the end of the day both sides fought the same enemies and had no over tactical and strategic goals against each other until 1944. Here, after the Japanese are able to prevent any U.S ability to launch an offensive in the Western Pacific, Japan straight up backstabs Britain and Russia by launching invasions of Southeast Asia and Siberia respectively in order to clear East Asia of the colonial powers.

This never goes unpunished thanks to Britain and Russia having to deal with the Central Powers, and by the end of the war Japan could be said to be the most advantageous winner due to coming out without any superbomb attacks and their homeland unscathed, while at the same time setting up the Co-Prosperity Sphere and clearing the Pacific out of any European powers. It's a pretty interesting divergence to have a multi-polar WW2 when most other alternate history pieces with the time period have a seperate faction side with the Allies, even if they are pretty independent.

While there is some minor foreshadowing about a potential Cold War with Japan, I don't think this will be feasible unless Japan decides to go outside of its sphere of influence and create a global empire. Germany is stuck trying to rebuild Europe, while America has to deal with terrorist Mormons, a non repentant CSA that has to somehow be reintegrated, and Canadian Nationalists. Both superpowers will be far too busy with Europe/Africa and the Americas respectively to go after Japan. Meaning that TL-191's future will probably be a tri-polar world between Germany, America, and Japan.

Very possible and depends what happens, and seems there a flashpoint in TL191 world will be Asia indeed.