Peace after Dunkirk: When does the UK rejoin the war (if at all?)

Unless a hypothetical peace agreement happened before Japan occupied northern Indochina and/or allowed the Dutch East Indies to sell oil to Japan, then the American oil embargo will probably compel Japan to attack (unless there's some political change that I'm not aware of that empowers the peace faction).

Actually, now that I think about it, the American political situation might be radically different in such a scenario. Perhaps not in a way that would ultimately prevent war with Japan, but certainly different enough that it should be factored into the scenario.

FDR dithered until the very last possible moment as to whether he would run for a third term or not - breaking precedent, after all, was a big deal. His main justification was that America needed strong, stable leadership at a time when it seemed increasingly likely that the country would get involved in a massive global conflict. Now, the geopolitical situation will still be tense by the time that the Democratic National Convention rolls around, but if the war in Europe seems at least paused, then FDR might not feel as though he could get away with running for a third term. The nomination seems most likely to go to John Nance Garner in such a scenario, though there are any number of other possibilities.

On the Republican side, Wendell Wilkie’s triumph at the Republican National Convention was an absolute black swan event that seems very likely to be butterflied away under even slightly different circumstances. The most likely alternative nominees are Thomas Dewey and Robert Taft, both of whom were at least nominally isolationists at the time. Dewey could very well change his tune once in office, but Taft was absolutely, ideologically committed to avoiding what he perceived as foreign entanglements. That would certainly complicate matters.

But how likely is a Republican victory in the general election? I think that it is fairly likely in a scenario where FDR is not running as the incumbent and war is not currently raging in Europe and the Atlantic, especially if Garner is the nominee. Left-wing and/or black voters would likely be less enthusiastic for a conservative Southerner than they were for Roosevelt, and this could provide a decisive margin for Dewey or Taft in the Midwest and Northeast.
 
There is no reason To sue for peace for England, what can they possibly gain from it? They are in a position of strength

Being kicked out of the continent, and having nearly your entire army captured with Germany telling all British citizens they will gladly return them home if they just agree to peace is not a position of strenght, not at all.

The UK was close to making peace with Germany as it is.
 
Is there no way to compel the United Kingdom to seek armistice, then?

Yes, there is. They require Hitler and Nazi Germany acting completely out of character. But compelling the UK to seek armistice was certainly within their possibilities. This likely requires something on the order of the USSR openly joining the Axis or Hitler to be prepared to fight a long war against the UK and completely forget about Lebensraum.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Being kicked out of the continent, and having nearly your entire army captured with Germany telling all British citizens they will gladly return them home if they just agree to peace is not a position of strenght, not at all.

The UK was close to making peace with Germany as it is.
Or how about having a world class navy and supreme control over all seas around Germany
Unlimited manpower from india to canada
More capable and numerous airforce than luftwaffe
Much more of a industrial potential than germany
Unlimited food supplies
Their BFF and friendly neutral is most powerful country on earth i.e USA
The constant threat of soviet Russia hanging over Germans

So no British still hold most of the cards
 

Deleted member 94680

Is there no way to compel the United Kingdom to seek armistice, then?

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/glossary-of-sealion-threads.180901/

If Russia and Germany never come to blows, does the UK just stay in the war until Nuclear Weapons can be developed and used against Germany?

Nazi Germany is always going to come to blows with Soviet Russia, sooner or later.

Whether a Britain out of the War has the incentive or drive to develop Tube Alloys “in the background” as it were, I don’t know.
 
Or how about having a world class navy and supreme control over all seas around Germany
Unlimited manpower from india to canada
More capable and numerous airforce than luftwaffe
Much more of a industrial potential than germany
Unlimited food supplies
Their BFF and friendly neutral is most powerful country on earth i.e USA
The constant threat of soviet Russia hanging over Germans

So no British still hold most of the cards

All of this is good to preserve the integrity of the Home Isles, but the fact remains that the UK alone had no means to actually march into Berlin, it would also require a long multi year war. Also the USSR at the time was seen as a German ally. Fuck, Churchill flatout admitted that his entire plan for beating Germany was to drag the US into the war.
 

Deleted member 94680

All of this is good to preserve the integrity of the Home Isles, but the fact remains that the UK alone had no means to actually march into Berlin, it would also require a long multi year war. Also the USSR at the time was seen as a German ally. Fuck, Churchill flatout admitted that his entire plan for beating Germany was to drag the US into the war.

The question was about the Germans compelling the British to come to terms, not about how the British were going to win the War.

Between the two, even in a Dunkirk disaster 1940, Britain is far better positioned to survive a long multi year war.
 
The question was about the Germans compelling the British to come to terms, not about how the British were going to win the War.

Between the two, even in a Dunkirk disaster 1940, Britain is far better positioned to survive a long multi year war.

Britain will be compelled to seek terms when the British people are fed up with a war over Poland. Unlike Germany which is a dictatorship, the UK is bound to do what the citizens vote it to do. It might take years, but eventually the population is going to get tired of a war over Poland and either demand terms or vote in a government that will seek terms.

This is also ignoring an entire array of events that could happen, like the USSR joining the Axis, yes it would had required Hitler acting completely out of character, but it was technically possible.
 
Actually, now that I think about it, the American political situation might be radically different in such a scenario. Perhaps not in a way that would ultimately prevent war with Japan, but certainly different enough that it should be factored into the scenario.

FDR dithered until the very last possible moment as to whether he would run for a third term or not - breaking precedent, after all, was a big deal. His main justification was that America needed strong, stable leadership at a time when it seemed increasingly likely that the country would get involved in a massive global conflict. Now, the geopolitical situation will still be tense by the time that the Democratic National Convention rolls around, but if the war in Europe seems at least paused, then FDR might not feel as though he could get away with running for a third term. The nomination seems most likely to go to John Nance Garner in such a scenario, though there are any number of other possibilities.

On the Republican side, Wendell Wilkie’s triumph at the Republican National Convention was an absolute black swan event that seems very likely to be butterflied away under even slightly different circumstances. The most likely alternative nominees are Thomas Dewey and Robert Taft, both of whom were at least nominally isolationists at the time. Dewey could very well change his tune once in office, but Taft was absolutely, ideologically committed to avoiding what he perceived as foreign entanglements. That would certainly complicate matters.

But how likely is a Republican victory in the general election? I think that it is fairly likely in a scenario where FDR is not running as the incumbent and war is not currently raging in Europe and the Atlantic, especially if Garner is the nominee. Left-wing and/or black voters would likely be less enthusiastic for a conservative Southerner than they were for Roosevelt, and this could provide a decisive margin for Dewey or Taft in the Midwest and Northeast.

Cordell Hull was the leading Democrat before Roosevelt declared affirmatively for running for a third term.

Gallup (6-9/14/1940):
Hull............................... 47%
Garner............................. 23
Farley.............................. 12
McNutt............................ 9
Wheeler............................ 3
Jackson............................ 1
La Guardia......................... 1
Others............................. 4

On the Republican side, Thomas Dewey was ahead before Willkie had his black swan surge, so I'd presume he'd be the GOP nominee:

Gallup (6-9/14/1940):

Dewey.............................47%
Willkie............................. 29
Taft................................ 8
Vandenberg......................... 8
Hoover............................. 6
Others............................. 2

Gallup (6/25-27/1940)
Willkie;......................... 44%
Dewey............................. 29
Taft................................ 13
Others, no opinion................... 14

There was actually a Hull vs Dewey poll, and man was it close (Hull with a slight edge). Granted this occurred before the Fall of France, so that's a caveat worth considering. Still, Dewey was a pretty popular figure, with almost celebrity status, for cracking down on the NYC mob, so I think he'd be a real contender.

Gallup (5/5-10/1940):
Hull............................... 51%
Dewey.............................49

(Hull, Dewey)
New England.......... 43% 57%

Middle Atlantic........ 49 51

East Central........... 46 54

West Central........... 49 51

South................. 75 25

West.................. 50 50

Inputting that poll's regional results in something like this:

genusmap.php

Hull - 271; Dewey- 260

Granted, PA was stupidly close in the model I made, so you could really have it go either way.
 
I do not know how differently Hull might handle the lead-up to war, but a quick skim of his Wikipedia page indicates that he was opposed to accepting many Jewish refugees from Europe and took a very dim view of de Gaulle's Free French forces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordell_Hull

Whether Dewey would become more internationalist in office could also go either way. He did abandon isolationism fairly quickly in our timeline, but he could have changed positions as a way to differentiate himself from Taft, his rival for leadership of the Republican Party, and shore up support among internationalist, moderate-to-liberal Northeastern Republicans. If Dewey had won the GOP nomination in 1940 and gone on to be elected President of the United States, he might find such ideological maneuvering to be unnecessary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_E._Dewey#1940

Anyway, I do not know if this line of conversation is helpful or an off-topic tangent. I apologize if it is the latter.
 
Britain will be compelled to seek terms when the British people are fed up with a war over Poland. Unlike Germany which is a dictatorship, the UK is bound to do what the citizens vote it to do. It might take years, but eventually the population is going to get tired of a war over Poland and either demand terms or vote in a government that will seek terms.

This is also ignoring an entire array of events that could happen, like the USSR joining the Axis, yes it would had required Hitler acting completely out of character, but it was technically possible.

Enough people wanted Hitler dead (and his health wasn't the best besides, thanks to his quack "doctor"), so perhaps its possible that his legal successor Goering could take over and work out some accord with the Soviets? Goering was certainly a Nazi through and through, but he enjoyed living off of graft and largesse afforded by the state to the point where he could possibly avoid coming to blows with the Soviets out of a desire of self-preservation (IOTL he was wasn't a fan of Operation Barbarossa, advocating a Mediterranean strategy instead).
 

Deleted member 94680

Britain will be compelled to seek terms when the British people are fed up with a war over Poland.

I think German bombing of the UK will keep the British public pretty actively interested in the War, tbh.

Unlike Germany which is a dictatorship, the UK is bound to do what the citizens vote it to do. It might take years, but eventually the population is going to get tired of a war over Poland and either demand terms or vote in a government that will seek terms.

Do you have an example of a War that’s ended because people got bored of fighting it? I’m struggling to think of one, myself. Also, if this boring War last years, the Nazi’s clusterfuck mismanagement of the economy will have collapsed the Reich long before the British need worry about anything. Hitler and the crazy gang were on the clock, and they knew it.

This is also ignoring an entire array of events that could happen, like the USSR joining the Axis, yes it would had required Hitler acting completely out of character, but it was technically possible.

I’m ignoring it because there’s practically zero chance of something so outlandishly ridiculous actually happening.

If the best you’ve got is ASB, I reckon the British will be happy with a Cold War scenario and peace treaty be damned.
 
I’m ignoring it because there’s practically zero chance of something so outlandishly ridiculous actually happening.

If the best you’ve got is ASB, I reckon the British will be happy with a Cold War scenario and peace treaty be damned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Soviet_Axis_talks

The Soviet Union joining the Axis doesn't seem ASB to the point where a different German leader, or even a Hitler who has just determined its better to knife the Soviets in the back after defeating the UK, couldn't have made something work - even if its very tricky to sort out the final details?
 
I think German bombing of the UK will keep the British public pretty actively interested in the War, tbh.

For a time? Yes. Indefininitely? No. Specially as the UK simply makes no progress in the ground and all it can do is fight a sideshow in Africa and engage in a staring contest with Germany as neither has the ability to do much damage to each other. The difference is that a democracy will get tired of war before a dictatorship does.


Do you have an example of a War that’s ended because people got bored of fighting it?

Vietnam? I can't think of any other from the top of my head.

I’m struggling to think of one, myself. Also, if this boring War last years, the Nazi’s clusterfuck mismanagement of the economy will have collapsed the Reich long before the British need worry about anything. Hitler and the crazy gang were on the clock, and they knew it.

Of course, but whatever government arise after the Reich is gone is going to want to keep at least the territories the Fuhrer had recovered for the German People. That means everything up to Poland, or at the very least reclaiming the territories lost to Versailles.


I’I’m ignoring it because there’s practically zero chance of something so outlandishly ridiculous actually happening.

If the best you’ve got is ASB, I reckon the British will be happy with a Cold War scenario and peace treaty be damned.

Oh no, no ASB at all, it is very well documented there were talks to include the USSR in the Axis and Stalin was very interested and actually issued a final proposal for his entry into the Axis. There were also a lot of people within Germany that wanted this to happen. It didn't happen because of Hitler, Hitler alone vetoed this. Have another leader that isn't Hitler and there is a very good shot you see the USSR enter the war on the Axis side.
 

Deleted member 94680

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Soviet_Axis_talks

The Soviet Union joining the Axis doesn't seem ASB to the point where a different German leader, or even a Hitler who has just determined its better to knife the Soviets in the back after defeating the UK, couldn't have made something work?

Soviet foreign policy calculations were predicated by the idea that the war would be a long-term struggle and therefore German claims that Britain would be defeated swiftly were treated with skepticism. In addition, Stalin sought to remain influential in Bulgaria and Yugoslavia. These factors resulted in Molotov taking a firm line. According to a Columbia University academical source, on 25 November 1940, the Soviets presented a Stalin-drafted written counterproposal where they would accept the four power pact, but it included Soviet rights to Bulgaria and a world sphere of influence centred on the area around Iraq and Iran. Germany did not respond, leaving the negotiations unresolved. Regarding the counterproposal, Hitler remarked to his top military chiefs that Stalin "demands more and more", "he's a cold-blooded blackmailer" and that "a German victory has become unbearable for Russia" so that "she must be brought to her knees as soon as possible." Germany broke the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact in June 1941 by invading the Soviet Union.

One could argue the negotiations made war between the Nazis and the Soviets more likely as it revealed their competing aims for control and influence.

Obviously, with *Hitler and the notzis in power and *Stalin and the altsheviks in Moscow, anything is possible. But OTL and an ATL as close to reality as possible, that bird ain’t going to fly.
 

Deleted member 94680

For a time? Yes. Indefininitely? No. Specially as the UK simply makes no progress in the ground and all it can do is fight a sideshow in Africa and engage in a staring contest with Germany as neither has the ability to do much damage to each other. The difference is that a democracy will get tired of war before a dictatorship does.

Hence Cold War and peace isn’t possible due to loss of prestige. The state of war will continue with sporadic bombing raids or even commando actions (I assume Churchill is still PM in this TL?) and the economic blockade of German Europe. There’s plenty to keep Britain occupied.

Vietnam? I can't think of any other from the top of my head.

Lol. Vietnam ended because everyone got bored? Okaaaaayy...

Of course, but whatever government arise after the Reich is gone is going to want to keep at least the territories the Fuhrer had recovered for the German People. That means everything up to Poland, or at the very least reclaiming the territories lost to Versailles.

This is a very real possibility. But in the semi-scenario I mentioned and you’re running with, it would be a post-Hitler Government of an economic basket case. What they have they won’t hold for very long.

Oh no, no ASB at all, it is very well documented there were talks to include the USSR in the Axis and Stalin was very interested and actually issued a final proposal for his entry into the Axis. There were also a lot of people within Germany that wanted this to happen. It didn't happen because of Hitler, Hitler alone vetoed this. Have another leader that isn't Hitler and there is a very good shot you see the USSR enter the war on the Axis side.

I refer you to my answer to the post where @Reagent mentions the same.
 
Soviet foreign policy calculations were predicated by the idea that the war would be a long-term struggle and therefore German claims that Britain would be defeated swiftly were treated with skepticism. In addition, Stalin sought to remain influential in Bulgaria and Yugoslavia. These factors resulted in Molotov taking a firm line. According to a Columbia University academical source, on 25 November 1940, the Soviets presented a Stalin-drafted written counterproposal where they would accept the four power pact, but it included Soviet rights to Bulgaria and a world sphere of influence centred on the area around Iraq and Iran. Germany did not respond, leaving the negotiations unresolved. Regarding the counterproposal, Hitler remarked to his top military chiefs that Stalin "demands more and more", "he's a cold-blooded blackmailer" and that "a German victory has become unbearable for Russia" so that "she must be brought to her knees as soon as possible." Germany broke the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact in June 1941 by invading the Soviet Union.

One could argue the negotiations made war between the Nazis and the Soviets more likely as it revealed their competing aims for control and influence.

Obviously, with *Hitler and the notzis in power and *Stalin and the altsheviks in Moscow, anything is possible. But OTL and an ATL as close to reality as possible, that bird ain’t going to fly.

Joining the Tripartite Pact does not obligate the Soviet Union to join the war with the United Kingdom.

The five terms of the Soviet Counteroffer were:
  1. that German troops depart Finland in exchange for a Soviet guarantee of continued nickel and wood shipments and peace with Finland
  2. a mutual assistance pact be signed with Bulgaria in the next few months permitting Soviet bases (the purpose of which was to pressure Turkey to revise the straights convention)
  3. the center of Soviet territorial domination would be south of Baku and Batumi (ports in modern Azerbaijan and Georgia, south of which are Iraq and Iran)
  4. Japanese renunciation of rights to northern Sakhalin oil and coal concessions in exchange for appropriate compensation
  5. affirms that the Soviet-Bulgaria mutual assistance treaty was a political necessity
Additionally, the Soviets planned to deliver an extra million tons of grain and provide full compensation for Volksdeutche property claims

While some of these terms aren't easy pills for Germany to swallow (namely Bulgaria), they don't strike me as impossible demands for Germany to agree to if they were desperate enough to ensure they could knock out the United Kingdom.

I don't know why you think it would take "notzis" and "altsheviks" to make the proposal to work. Some Nazis such as Schulenburg backed the plan (IIRC there was a timeline where Ribbentrop was sick during the talks, so Germany was represented by Schulenburg who was able to strike a workable deal), and although Hitler had months ago decided to invade the Soviet Union (though this decision isn't super difficult to change) he was still interested enough to hear it out. Molotov wouldn't have made the offer if Stalin wasn't interested to some degree.
 

thaddeus

Donor
The Soviet Union joining the Axis doesn't seem ASB to the point where a different German leader, or even a Hitler who has just determined its better to knife the Soviets in the back after defeating the UK, couldn't have made something work - even if its very tricky to sort out the final details?

it is very well documented there were talks to include the USSR in the Axis and Stalin was very interested and actually issued a final proposal for his entry into the Axis. There were also a lot of people within Germany that wanted this to happen. It didn't happen because of Hitler, Hitler alone vetoed this. Have another leader that isn't Hitler and there is a very good shot you see the USSR enter the war on the Axis side.

Soviet foreign policy calculations were predicated by the idea that the war would be a long-term struggle and therefore German claims that Britain would be defeated swiftly were treated with skepticism. In addition, Stalin sought to remain influential in Bulgaria and Yugoslavia. These factors resulted in Molotov taking a firm line.

One could argue the negotiations made war between the Nazis and the Soviets more likely as it revealed their competing aims for control and influence.

Obviously, with *Hitler and the notzis in power and *Stalin and the altsheviks in Moscow, anything is possible. But OTL and an ATL as close to reality as possible, that bird ain’t going to fly.

why would we think the Soviets are going to take a hard line with Germany if the UK is out of the war? still think a conflict is more likely than not, but it seems the Soviets would still be trying to avoid one for a couple of years?
 
why would we think the Soviets are going to take a hard line with Germany if the UK is out of the war? still think a conflict is more likely than not, but it seems the Soviets would still be trying to avoid one for a couple of years?

I think the Soviets would be happy to see the "capitalist powers" of Germany and the United Kingdom bleed each other dry in a long, protracted war.

In the meantime, if they can work out an addendum to the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact with Germany that gives them influence in Bulgaria, removes German troops from Finland, forces Japan to recognize Soviet control of North Sakhalin, facilitates territorial revisions with Turkey and Iran, all while not being obligated to declare war in Britain? - all the better.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
All of this is good to preserve the integrity of the Home Isles, but the fact remains that the UK alone had no means to actually march into Berlin, it would also require a long multi year war. Also the USSR at the time was seen as a German ally. Fuck, Churchill flatout admitted that his entire plan for beating Germany was to drag the US into the war.
Most cost effective plan for britain ...sure
 
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