WI question, Dano-Holsteiner Helstat Nationalism

[Bastiram]

So to those that don't know it "Helstaten", is a Danish term from back in the day, which was a term to describe the Kingdom of Denmark + the duchies, Slesvig, Holstein and Lauenburg, which all were in personal union with Denmark.

before the Napoleonic wars it also included Norway.

Anyways it lost its importance after the Second Schleswig War in 1864 when all three duchies were lost. In Denmark this war is often blamed on the nationalist who gained power in 1863 ( I think) who wanted nothing to do with Helstaten. Instead, they wanted a purely Danish state, so Denmark + Slesvig.

During this time, the people in favour of the Helstaten ideology (if you can call it that) was the old elite the conservatives etc.

Last weekend I visited the Dannevirke museum in Schleswig-Holstein, Germany and it made me think.

What if instead of a Danish, Pan-Scandinavian nationalism. Another one would sweep the nation.

This nationalism would be one that embraced the dualistic nature of the Danish monarchy, Danish and German.

Let's say there is still a civil war in 1848-1851, nearly identical to what happened in OTL, so outside interference but eventually Schleswig-Holstein and Denmark duke it out, with Denmark emerging the victor.


The following years instead of a pure Danish nationalism, the dual Dano-Holsteiner one flourishes, embracing Helstaten.

So in 1863 the National Liberal government formed by Monrad is pro Helstaten and instead of trying to unite Denmark and Slesvig. They want to unite the whole thing under one constitution.

This government goes ahead with uniting both Denmark and all three duchies.
Their big thing is ending absolutism in the duchies and bring democracy there etc.

The duchies are pro this development for reasons

So we will see a united Helstaten.

To put it into perspective, the duchies are 1/3 of the land, 2/5 of the population and if I remember correct 3/5 of the economy. So it is not some irrelevant part but will play an important role in the Dano-Holsteiner state.

Also interesting is that Copenhagen, at this period is like 25 % German.

This alternative development brings up several questions.

Will it lead to war with Prussia and Austria like OTL? if yes can Helstaten survive.

One of the aspects that could lead to war is Holsteins position as part of the German Confederation.

Since Helstaten embraces the German part of the nation. Would it want to join, would other German states want it to join etc.

What would Norwegian + Swedish Nationalism look upon this. Would a failed Scandinavian Nationalism still be a thing? Or would it not even develop due to the lack of the Danish part of it.

going to the future, disregarding the massive butterflies.

What kind of role would Helstaten play in an eventual ww1/ww2 ?

 

[Jürgen]

I’m going to work soon so only a few quick thoughts, if we go back to 1800 Norwegian separatism (through it was almost solely a elite issue) was a bigger issue than Holsteinian separatism, early nationalism in Holstein was pro-Danish. It was only with German nationalism hitting Holstein full blown in the 1820ties, while it was booming and Denmark was in a economic crisis and later the rise of Danish nationalism in 1830ties and the conflict over school language in Schleswig in the same years, that we saw a real split, but it was the 1st Schleswig War which made it impossible to heal the wounds.

So instead I suggest a POD that the school reform end with school language doesn’t follow church language, but instead that the state check what people in reality speak. Next we kill off Frederik VI in 1829, and we see absolutism disabolished in the revolutions of 1830 instead of 1848. With this the wounds stay shallow and will be able to be healed.

 

[Bastiram]

Yea I wanted to go with as many OTL events to simplify things, but avoiding the Three Years War is probably a good thing, it would also mean that Danish trade turning towards England will be delayed a bit. As it was accelerated by the war. But with the opening of the English market. England is still likely to become the largest trading partner, even if Denmark is pro-Holsteiner.

So small timeline:
1801: Battle of Copenhagen, narrow victory for Lord Nelson

1807: Bombardment of Copenhagen and the confiscation of the Danish Navy by the UK.

1807-1812: Gunboat war, Danish alliance with the French Empire.

1813: The Danish State goes Bankrupt

1814: Treaty of Kiel, Denmark cedes Heligoland to the UK and in return for Swedish Pomerania, The Kingdom of Norway is ceded to Sweden. The Norwegian dependencies, Greenland, Iceland, and the Faroe Islands are not part of the deal.

1814: Almueskolen, mandatory education is introduced to the Kingdom of Denmark (not the duchies from what I can find)

1815: Due to Norway declaring its independence, Sweden refuses to hand over Swedish Pomerania, instead Prussia is given Swedish Pomerania, and Denmark receives the Duchy of Lauenburg, bordering the Danish-controlled Duchy of Holstein.

Holstein and Lauenburg are both parts of the German Confederation.

1815-1816: Schleswig-Holsteinisme ideas emerge from F. Falck and F.C. Dahlman at the university in Kiel. In essence, these want a constitution in Slesvig-Holstein, via renewal of the old estate of the realms. The foundation of this would be the Slesvig-Holsteinian Noble estate's privileges as outlined by the Ribe Treaty in 1460. "Up ewig ungedeelt" forever undivided is a cornerstone.

1820'is: Economical boom in Holstein while the Kingdom of Denmark is still struggling in the aftermath of 1813. Rise of German nationalism in Holstein.

1829: Due to a sudden illness Frederik VI King of Denmark, Duke of Slesvig, Holstein and Lauenburg dies 61 years old. His Nephew Christian VIII Ascends the throne, he is 43 years old. (Change from OTL)

1830: Landvogt U. J Lornsen, a proponent of Schleswig-Holsteinism, is unsuccessful in gaining a constitution for a Slesvig-Holstein which only shares a King and Enemies with the Kingdom of Denmark.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So this is what I got until now, it's getting a bit convoluted in my head, so thought I would get some input.
An idea could be to have Christian VIII get a second son, securing the succession, and avoiding the Augustenburgs becoming a part of Schleswig-Holsteinism.

Haven't really been able to find anything about the school reform that you talked about

Historical Christian VIII was against any constitutions but otl he was 53 years when he ascended the Danish throne. Here he is 43 and maybe a bit more malleable. He apparently also first became a proponent of Slesvig becoming a part of Denmark in 1846.

The works of U. J Lornsen of a constitution for Schleswig-Holstein could be an eye-opener for the new king.

This is also right before Danish nationalism hits, so maybe he is in a unique position to direct Danish Nationalism.

The question is, what could entice a booming economical Holstein with the halting Danish Kingdom, to unite :?

 

[Jürgen]

Looking good.

So here’s my suggestions.

School language following the language spoken on the ground, this remove the major conflict, and pretty much make Schleswig town border between Danish and German. The North Frisians will likely early on use in German in the Schleswig and Danish in the enclaves, but we will likely see a North Frisian National awakening without the Danish-German language conflict overshadowing everything else.

The 1830 constitution need to be pretty conservative, preferable with a upper house elected mostly by the nobility, maybe with a few ecclesiastical members and a few members of the royal family also having place in it. The Holsteinian nobility need to prefer a continued union with Denmark, so we avoid the conservative-liberal alliance in Holstein against the union with Denmark.

In the longer run Denmark need to go federal (Zealand, Funen, Jutland, Schleswig, Holstein, Lauenburg and Iceland).

A major bonus with such a early end to absolutism, Si that we don’t see the constitutional crisis with Iceland.

 

[Bastiram]

1801: Battle of Copenhagen, narrow victory for Lord Nelson

1807: Bombardment of Copenhagen and the confiscation of the Danish Navy by the UK.

1807-1812: Gunboat war, Danish alliance with the French Empire.

1813: The Danish State goes Bankrupt

1814: Treaty of Kiel, Denmark cedes Heligoland to the UK and in return for Swedish Pomerania, The Kingdom of Norway is ceded to Sweden. The Norwegian dependencies, Greenland, Iceland, and the Faroe Islands are not part of the deal.

1814: Almueskolen, mandatory education is introduced to the Kingdom of Denmark (not the duchies from what I can find)

1815: Due to Norway declaring its independence, Sweden refuses to hand over Swedish Pomerania, instead Prussia is given Swedish Pomerania, and Denmark receives the Duchy of Lauenburg, bordering the Danish-controlled Duchy of Holstein.

Holstein and Lauenburg are both parts of the German Confederation.

1815-1816: Schleswig-Holsteinisme ideas emerge from F. Falck and F.C. Dahlman at the university in Kiel. In essence, these want a constitution in Slesvig-Holstein, via renewal of the old estate of the realms. The foundation of this would be the Slesvig-Holsteinian Noble estate's privileges as outlined by the Ribe Treaty in 1460. "Up ewig ungedeelt" forever undivided is a cornerstone.

1820'is: Economical boom in Holstein while the Kingdom of Denmark is still struggling in the aftermath of 1813. Rise of German nationalism in Holstein.

1829: Due to a sudden illness Frederik VI King of Denmark, Duke of Slesvig, Holstein and Lauenburg dies 61 years old. His Cousin Christian VIII Ascends the throne, he is 43 years old. (Change from OTL)

1830: Landvogt U. J Lornsen, a proponent of Schleswig-Holsteinism, is unsuccessful in gaining a constitution for a Slesvig-Holstein which only shares a King and Enemies with the Kingdom of Denmark.

Across Europe there is clamor for reforms, in Denmark where Nationalism hasn't spread like wildfire less so, But the duchies are another story.

Work on introducing the Danish School reforms in the duchies is met by an unforseen unwillingness, large parts of Slesvig, which used to speak danish now speak German.
The school reform wants to use the church language for the schools which means Danish will be taught.

By nationalist both German and followers of the Schleswig-Holsteinisme idea, this is seen as an attack upon their way of life. An effort by the Danish monarch to make the duchies Danish.

The backlash has Christian VIII retract on the reforms by now, already a bit shaken by the efforts of U. J. Lornsen to distance the duchies and the Kingdom.

1831: Queen Caroline Amalie (35 years old), second wife of Christian VIII to the surprise of many falls pregnant and a healthy son is born, named Christian, this is their first and only child.

1832: A revised school reform is introduced in the Duchies, instead of basing the school language on the church language. It depends on the language spoken in the given area. This is celebrated as a win in Schleswig-Holstein.

1833: First draft of a Constitution for The Kingdom and the Duchies, the days of the most absolute monarchy in Europe are numbered.

1834: Crown Prince Frederik is separated with his first wife Crown Princess Vilhelmine Marie of Denmark, his 1st cousin once removed, and the daughter of the late Frederik 6.
the separation is due to the "difficult" nature of Crown Prince Frederik.

1837: Crown Prince Frederik and Crown Princess Vilhelmine are finally divorced. No children are borne from the marriage.

1840'sh: Crown Prince Frederik is introduced to Luise Christine Rasmussen, by Johann Carl Ernst Berling a printer. Who is also father to her child borne out of wedlock. She is a commoner,

1841: Crown Prince Frederik is married to Caroline Charlotte Mariane of Mecklenburg-Strelitz.

1842: The new Crown Princess Mariane of Mecklenburg-Strelitz is increasingly isolated and her health is failing.

1844: the Crown Princess leaves Denmark to visit her parents, she refuses to return to Denmark and her husband.

1846 Crown Prince Frederik is divorced from his second wife. No children are borne from the marriage.
The divorce is by the Danish court blamed upon the Princess' ill health, though it is probably her inability to cope with her husbands wild and unbearable lifestyle.

1847: Christian VIII, King of Denmark dies (A year earlier than OTL, blame it on stress being king 10 years more than OTL) leaving the throne to his oldest son, the Crown Prince Frederik, who upon ascension to the Danish throne, is now Frederik VII.

1848: Frederik VII. makes his mistress Luise Christine Rasmussen into Lensgrevinde (Countess:?) Danner, he intends to marry her.

This leaves much of the nobility outraged, calls for Frederik VII to step down, and leave the throne to his younger brother, Prince Christian is heard. Amongst the loudest voices are the young prince's uncles
Frederik Christian II. Hertug (Duke) of Slesvig-Holstein-Sønderborg-Augustenborg and Frederik Emil August, The Prince of Nør.

1849: The beloved Dowager Queen joins her voice to her brothers, insisting that the King steps down.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Added a bit more, mostly focusing on Frederik VII, need to figure out the finer details of a Constitution, etc. Don't know how viable this is.

What would be an interesting candidate to marriage this TL's Christian IX?

Another question if OTL's Christian IX does not become king, any chance he does not become a footnote in history:?

 

[Jürgen]

A few more thoughts.

Holstein was the center of Helstaten’s industry, only rivaled somewhat by Copenhagen, but it was heavily dependent on tariffs and access to raw material from the rest of Denmark, it was why Holstein have gone from the richest province in Helstaten to the poorest in western Germany, as they was unable to compete with other German industrial areas, without access to the raw materials of the Danish realm and the protection the Danish state offered. Denmark afterward developed a pretty decentralized industrialization, and while something like this will happen again, at least in coastal areas inland areas will likely see less industrialization than in OTL. We will likely not see Esbjerg coming into being with Denmark still having Altona, instead we may see Ribe Ladeplads grow into a real port at some point later, likely pretty similar to Rødby Havn, Gedser or Hvidesande. It may grow together with Ribe, and together I could see create Næstved or Viborg sized town.

We will still the transformation of heath, moor and marsh into farmland, but it will likely start earlier without the state being busy with other issues.

Demographic we will likely see a higher Danish birth rate than Holsteinian one, with the Danes being somewhat poorer, but the language border will not change. I think emigration will be much like in OTL in number, a bigger Danish population result in greater emigration, but as Schleswig under German was the major emigration center, this will lower it in percent, as result pretty much the same emigration as in OTL

Denmark will likely without the conflict in Schleswig focus more on colonial matters, we can likely see them create a small empire in Africa, it would be most interest if Namibia ended up in Danish hands.

As for OTL Christian IX without the crown, he will be just another Sonderburg duke, there’s plenty of those, and they have mostly been historical footnotes.

 

[Bastiram]

Holstein was the center of Helstaten’s industry, only rivaled somewhat by Copenhagen, but it was heavily dependent on tariffs and access to raw material from the rest of Denmark, it was why Holstein have gone from the richest province in Helstaten to the poorest in western Germany, as they was unable to compete with other German industrial areas, without access to the raw materials of the Danish realm and the protection the Danish state offered. Denmark afterward developed a pretty decentralized industrialization, and while something like this will happen again, at least in coastal areas inland areas will likely see less industrialization than in OTL. We will likely not see Esbjerg coming into being with Denmark still having Altona, instead we may see Ribe Ladeplads grow into a real port at some point later, likely pretty similar to Rødby Havn, Gedser or Hvidesande. It may grow together with Ribe, and together I could see create Næstved or Viborg sized town.

So a carrot on a stick is favorable deal towards this, keeping up tariffs for Holstein is an idea, until it is more competetive. Unless they're unaware of this keeping up their economy...

I agree with the cities
(crap I'm killing off my hometown)
Which reminds me I had a fun idea about a TL for Silkeborg, built around all decisions taken for the start and running of the city was taken by 3 men for the first few years, sitting in Copenhagen. Decisions included who could move to the city etc. to avoid a "Wild West" situation to develop.

Though I doubt anyone would be interested about a none-important city in Denmark heh.

Demographic we will likely see a higher Danish birth rate than Holsteinian one, with the Danes being somewhat poorer, but the language border will not change. I think emigration will be much like in OTL in number, a bigger Danish population result in greater emigration, but as Schleswig under German was the major emigration center, this will lower it in percent, as result pretty much the same emigration as in OTL

Makes sense, I know Denmark grew its population more than Sweden did, I wonder if Denmark vs Germany is comparable.

If I go by the duchies being 40 % of the population of the Kingdom, and compares it to modern Denmark 5.8, then the duchies would have 2.3 m which is less than modern Schleswig-Holstein.
though this is a very rough way to look at it I guess. With no historical data to base it off.

That brings another question if we're going for a singular state (which I am), would the duchies want another name than, "The Kingdom of Denmark" or would they want something different...

Denmark will likely without the conflict in Schleswig focus more on colonial matters, we can likely see them create a small empire in Africa, it would be most interest if Namibia ended up in Danish hands.

Guess it is a decent replacement of Norway

What about ghana? Denmark should still have its African forts.

Better yet Congo !

As for OTL Christian IX without the crown, he will be just another Sonderburg duke, there’s plenty of those, and they have mostly been historical footnotes.

Makes sense.

 

[Jürgen]

So a carrot on a stick is favorable deal towards this, keeping up tariffs for Holstein is an idea, until it is more competetive. Unless they're unaware of this keeping up their economy...

They was pretty unaware of this, it will simply just be a benefit.

I agree with the cities
(crap I'm killing off my hometown)
Which reminds me I had a fun idea about a TL for Silkeborg, built around all decisions taken for the start and running of the city was taken by 3 men for the first few years, sitting in Copenhagen. Decisions included who could move to the city etc. to avoid a "Wild West" situation to develop.

Though I doubt anyone would be interested about a none-important city in Denmark heh.

Silkeborg will still develop, the establishment of paper production was established there because of the opportunity to use water mills and the need for clean water, which they didn’t have in the North Zealand, where the areas around the lakes had been so polluted that the paper production lacked water. Esbjerg are the big loser in this and Trekantsområdet to lesser extent.

Makes sense, I know Denmark grew its population more than Sweden did, I wonder if Denmark vs Germany is comparable.

If I go by the duchies being 40 % of the population of the Kingdom, and compares it to modern Denmark 5.8, then the duchies would have 2.3 m which is less than modern Schleswig-Holstein.
though this is a very rough way to look at it I guess. With no historical data to base it off

I think you made a wrong calculation the duchies made up 40% of the Helstaten that’s 80% of the Danish population minus South Jutland, that’s 5,6 times 0,8 which is around 4,5. As comparison SH plus South Jutland plus Altona minus Lübeck have roughly 3 million people in OTL.

I also think that population in core Denmark will be bigger inTTL, Copenhagen will likely be 20-30% bigger than in OTL if not more. Schleswig will also have seen greater influx of Danish settlers in the heath, moor and marsh areas, which is less developed in Schleswig than in Denmark in OTL.

The biggest cities will be this order Copenhagen, Altona, Flensburg, Aarhus, Kiel, Odense, Aalborg, Reykjavik.

Greater Copenhagen will likely have around 2,5 million people with 15-20% being German speakers.
Altona will have roughly a million people with 5-10% being Danish speakers.
Flensburg will likely have around 400K people with less than 10% being German speakers.
Aarhus pretty much the same city as in OTL, but it will lack the charming Aarhusian inferiority-superiority complex.
Kiel much the same city as in OTL a few more Danes but likely still under 5%. Somewhat more important as Holsteins port to the rest of the kingdom.
The rest pretty much the same.

Beside that as I have said Ribe will likely be bigger, I also expect Tönning and Schleswig being bigger

That brings another question if we're going for a singular state (which I am), would the duchies want another name than, "The Kingdom of Denmark" or would they want something different...

I think it’s hard to find another name, maybe the Commonwealth of Denmark could become the official name, especially if Denmark goes full federal. Which did seem the solution Denmark was moving toward to keep the ethnic tension down. I think mutual provincial federalism will be the best, as Belgium linguistic federalism only seem to move things toward separatism.

Guess it is a decent replacement of Norway

What about ghana? Denmark should still have its African forts.

Better yet Congo !

Eastern Ghana and Togo would be a likely Danish colony, Congo are the poisonous fruit, while the Danish state would behave less horrifying than Belgium, it’s still a colony which lend itself to behaving badly. Namibia have the benefit that it’s a colony which demand investment and settlers, and while it’s famous for the Herero genocide, that was a exception in how the natives was treated, and while not racial harmonious today it have still gone as well as you could expect (I think the natives of Namibia have been very tolerant toward the White minority). I would say that East Ghana-Togo and Cameron would be the likely Danish colonies, with Namibia as the interesting price if the Danes take it. Also if the Danes stay in East Ghana, the the Dutch will likely stay in West Ghana, which will also be interesting.

 

[Bastiram]

I think I found a candidate for this TL's Christian IX wife:

Pauline, Duchess (I think that's her title) of Mecklenburg-Schwerin: born in 1833 died in 1894, unmarried.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Frederick,_Grand_Duke_of_Mecklenburg-Schwerin though I can hardly find anything about her.

I guess another option would be to marry into some of the other ducal houses in Schleswig-Holstein. Hum hum.

They was pretty unaware of this, it will simply just be a benefit.

Makes sense.

I think you made a wrong calculation the duchies made up 40% of the Helstaten that’s 80% of the Danish population minus South Jutland, that’s 5,6 times 0,8 which is around 4,5. As comparison SH plus South Jutland plus Altona minus Lübeck have roughly 3 million people in OTL.

So let's say maybe 12 million modern day? 5 in the duchies and 6.5-7 million in Denmark. With roughly 50/50 split in Danish + German speakers, that might be too generous for the German part though.

The biggest cities will be this order Copenhagen, Altona, Flensburg, Aarhus, Kiel, Odense, Aalborg, Reykjavik.

I would like to throw in Lauenburg an der Elbe to that list, maybe between Odense and Aalborg. Much like Altona, it will be heavily interconnected with Hamburg.

My working theory is a consitution that favours the elite even more than the OTL one, with it happening in the 1830'ies

might take inspiration from:
https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fællesforfatningen

so let's say there are 100 spots. 60 for Denmark and 40 for Schleswig-Holstein & Lauenburg. Eventually Schleswig-Holstein will maybe complain about not getting their due representation.

Which opens for the option to federalize a bit more:

Ending up with a division looking like this:
Kingdom of Denmark split into 3/ maybe later 5

Sjælland. With Copenhagen as regional capital

Fyn (including Lolland, Falster etc.) With Odense (or Svendborg/Nyborg maybe) :?

Jylland. with the capital in Aarhus, (I don't like Viborg even though it would be the obvious choice) another option could be Ribe.

Later on Iceland, with Reykavik as regional capital, probs around 1870

and maybe seperation of the Capital from Sjælland.


the three duchies split into three regions:

Holstein, with Kiel as regional capital, even though Altona will increasingly be more important.

Schleswig/Slesvig, with Flensburg/borg as regional capital.

Lauenburg, with Ratzeburg as regional capital.

For consistency's sake, I think regions would be known as Hertugdømmer (duchies), with people in the royal family being made into Hertug/Hertuginde af Holstein for example.

 

[Jürgen]

I think I found a candidate for this TL's Christian IX wife:

Pauline, Duchess (I think that's her title) of Mecklenburg-Schwerin: born in 1833 died in 1894, unmarried.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Frederick,_Grand_Duke_of_Mecklenburg-Schwerin though I can hardly find anything about her.

I guess another option would be to marry into some of the other ducal houses in Schleswig-Holstein. Hum hum.

I suspect that there’s something wrong with her with the lack of details about her, she’s not even in the German Wikipedia. But you can butterfly that away. But you’re right marriages with Oldenburg side lines, the Mecklenburgs and Hessians would be most likely marriages

So let's say maybe 12 million modern day? 5 in the duchies and 6.5-7 million in Denmark. With roughly 50/50 split in Danish + German speakers, that might be too generous for the German part though.

I would say 12 million would be in the high end. But let’s go with that, I would say 30% Germans with 2,5 millions in Holstein and Lauenburg, half a million in Copenhagen and 300k in Schleswig and 300k in the rest of the realm. Beside that we would have 600k other non-Danes (350k Icelanders, 150k Frisians, 50k Greenlander, 50k Faroese). That give us roughly 7,8 million Danes. Schleswig would likely have 800k Danes.

I would like to throw in Lauenburg an der Elbe to that list, maybe between Odense and Aalborg. Much like Altona, it will be heavily interconnected with Hamburg.

I don’t think so Altona have a lot of potential as a port in itself, Lauenburg an der Elbe are simply a border city, I think comparisons to Padborg and Harrislee would be better.

My working theory is a consitution that favours the elite even more than the OTL one, with it happening in the 1830'ies

I agree

might take inspiration from:
https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fællesforfatningen

so let's say there are 100 spots. 60 for Denmark and 40 for Schleswig-Holstein & Lauenburg. Eventually Schleswig-Holstein will maybe complain about not getting their due representation.

What about every duchy/landsdel getting equal representation. There’s three duchies, three landsdele and Iceland.

Which opens for the option to federalize a bit more:

Ending up with a division looking like this:
Kingdom of Denmark split into 3/ maybe later 5

Sjælland. With Copenhagen as regional capital

Seems fine

Fyn (including Lolland, Falster etc.) With Odense (or Svendborg/Nyborg maybe) :?

No, Lolland-Falster are a natural part of Zealand, the different regions doesn’t need the same size. Odense are pretty much the only choice

Jylland. with the capital in Aarhus, (I don't like Viborg even though it would be the obvious choice) another option could be Ribe.

I think Aarhus/Aalborg would be the two choices, I lean toward Aarhus, as it’s the fastest potential transport to Copenhagen

Later on Iceland, with Reykavik as regional capital, probs around 1870

Iceland have a larger population than Lauenburg, I would go with it being set up as part of the federal structure from the start. It’s pretty obvious that Iceland will end up that way, so there’s no need to wait.

and maybe seperation of the Capital from Sjælland.

I think that will happen later, Copenhagen are still only a minority of the population on Zealand.

the three duchies split into three regions:

Holstein, with Kiel as regional capital, even though Altona will increasingly be more important.

Schleswig/Slesvig, with Flensburg/borg as regional capital.

Lauenburg, with Ratzeburg as regional capital.

Agree.

I also think that in time Faroe Island, Bornholm, Greenland and the Virgin Islands May be set up as independent Amts (counties) in that order, but that will be 20th century thing.

For consistency's sake, I think regions would be known as Hertugdømmer (duchies), with people in the royal family being made into Hertug/Hertuginde af Holstein for example.

Unlikely, but I love the idea so let’s go with it.

 

[Bastiram]

I suspect that there’s something wrong with her with the lack of details about her, she’s not even in the German Wikipedia. But you can butterfly that away. But you’re right marriages with Oldenburg side lines, the Mecklenburgs and Hessians would be most likely marriages

Yea I did look into the German wiki too, she seems to be a mere footnote. Obviously easily butterflied. I could not find anyone from the Hessian lines. I haven't looked into the Oldenburg lines, neither delved into the ducal sidelines. So maybe an option can be found there.

I don’t think so Altona have a lot of potential as a port in itself, Lauenburg an der Elbe are simply a border city, I think comparisons to Padborg and Harrislee would be better.

Yea did not realize that Lauenburg an der Elbe was that far away. Geestacht would be a better option. But that city will technically not be part of Lauenburg in this TL, as it became a part of Lauenburg when there were reforms and Lauenburg lost land south of the Elbe.

So how about this, Ratzeburg is the cultural, administrative and university city of Lauenburg.

But Lauenburg an der Elbe is the largest city in the Region, being a predominantly industrial based, with ties to neighboring Hamburg and Lower Saxony.

Let's say Lauenburg does a deal better than OTL and have 350 k people, rivaling Iceland.

Lauenburg an der Elbe, will be the smallest large city in any of the various regions. (well except Bornholm, Faroe islands and Greenland..)

What about every duchy/landsdel getting equal representation. There’s three duchies, three landsdele and Iceland.

Yea, probably need to give that to the duchies to get them to accept.

No, Lolland-Falster are a natural part of Zealand, the different regions doesn’t need the same size. Odense are pretty much the only choice

I based it on those islands being under the bishop of Odense, but I might remember wrong. So it stays with Zealand, Lolland-Falster probably becomes its own region if Bornholm etc. becomes one.

Iceland have a larger population than Lauenburg, I would go with it being set up as part of the federal structure from the start. It’s pretty obvious that Iceland will end up that way, so there’s no need to wait.

Yea makes sense.

I think that will happen later, Copenhagen are still only a minority of the population on Zealand.

Definitely later. say 1900'ish

Agree.

I also think that in time Faroe Island, Bornholm, Greenland and the Virgin Islands May be set up as independent Amts (counties) in that order, but that will be 20th century thing.

Yea. I'm tring to decide if there should be several phases where regions emerges or two.

The first in 1830, and one 70 years later.

Unlikely, but I love the idea so let’s go with it.

I got the idea from Swedish royalty, and throw a bone towards the duchies, quite fond of the idea myself. Obviously in daily talk they will just be refered to like Holstein, Jylland, Hovedstaden etc.

Will see if can't throw some more together tommorow.

 

[Jürgen]

My thoughts about the Danish colonial empire, if Denmark expand a little.

Danish West Indies: Not viable on their own, the modern population are to large extent result of influx from other islands after American takeover. If Denmark keep the islands, we will likely see it become a vacation destination in the age of mass tourism. The islands will likely see a large influx of people from Denmark to work in the tourist industry and English will likely slowly be pushed aside in favor of Danish and German will likely be a widely spoken second language by the Danish speakers.

Danish India, if Denmark doesn’t sell it to Britain it stay in Danish hand until Indian independence after which it’s given over to India, as a separate Indian state.

Danish Gold Coast: Again if it’s kept in Danish hands, it will gain independence in the decolonization, I lean toward it being as well functioning as modern Ghana, maybe a little more as Denmark have likely invested in local tertiary education to produce a local clergy, these same institution will likely end up producing civil servants, which will be nice for decolonized country. The local biracial/Europeanized minority (which exist in OTL) will be more connected to Denmark.

Cameroon:I expect it will be pretty similar to the Gold Coast, just without the biracial minority.

Namibia: As Denmark doesn’t lose it in WWI as German did, we will see a continued influx of Danes up, which will transform it into a settler colony, if it have the modern border of Namibia, the Danish settlers will live in the 90% southern part of the country and most of the Africans in the 10% northern part, which make a split easy especially because all the interesting mineral are in the southern part, and could leave a White/biracial majority southern Namibia.

 

[Jürgen]

Yea I did look into the German wiki too, she seems to be a mere footnote. Obviously easily butterflied. I could not find anyone from the Hessian lines. I haven't looked into the Oldenburg lines, neither delved into the ducal sidelines. So maybe an option can be found there.



Yea did not realize that Lauenburg an der Elbe was that far away. Geestacht would be a better option. But that city will technically not be part of Lauenburg in this TL, as it became a part of Lauenburg when there were reforms and Lauenburg lost land south of the Elbe.

So how about this, Ratzeburg is the cultural, administrative and university city of Lauenburg.

Yes seem like a good choice.

But Lauenburg an der Elbe is the largest city in the Region, being a predominantly industrial based, with ties to neighboring Hamburg and Lower Saxony.

Let's say Lauenburg does a deal better than OTL and have 350 k people, rivaling Iceland.

I think a increased population likely,

Yea, probably need to give that to the duchies to get them to accept.

Alternative we can go with a upper house where all the Danish counts and Barons plus the the head of the Holsteinian Knightly families have a seat. Beside that all the bishops could have a seat, plus some members of the royal family and sidelines. Such a upper chamber would likely have somewhere between 100-150 members. There had only established 57 counties and baronies, and some had disappeared again and a few was in Norway, I'm not sure of the precise size of the Holsteinian nobility. But it would give them a incitament to stay in the union. Of course the Upper House will likely end up removed at some point, when the nobility have lost most of their power. Alternative it could survive as a mostly symbolic institution. I could see a few recognised minority religions also be given a seat, likely the Danish Overrabbiner (supreme rabbi), but it would demand that they wasn't seen as loyal to foreign government (like Catholic Bishops was seen) and organised, so the state was sure they represented their group.

It also bring up another aspect Denmark which include Schleswig-Holstein will have a bigger Jewish population likely over 20.000 but likely even bigger.

I based it on those islands being under the bishop of Odense, but I might remember wrong.

No that's correct (at least until 1803, where it became independent), but outside ecclessial matters it was far closer to Zealand.

So it stays with Zealand, Lolland-Falster probably becomes its own region if Bornholm etc. becomes one.

Yea. I'm tring to decide if there should be several phases where regions emerges or two.

The first in 1830, and one 70 years later.

That doesn't sound like a bad idea. I could see Bornholm and Faroe Islands getting increased autonomy around 1900, while Greenland and the Danish West Indies only being integrated as counties instead of colonies in the 50ties and only gaining similar autonomy as the Bornholm and Faroe Islands in 1970ties. Beside that I could see North Friesland being given similar status at some point, but I'm not sure of when.

 

[Bastiram]

Danish West Indies: Not viable on their own, the modern population are to large extent result of influx from other islands after American takeover. If Denmark keep the islands, we will likely see it become a vacation destination in the age of mass tourism. The islands will likely see a large influx of people from Denmark to work in the tourist industry and English will likely slowly be pushed aside in favor of Danish and German will likely be a widely spoken second language by the Danish speakers.

Yea historically their economical value have plummeted after the abolishing of slavery, however in this TL Denmark is quite a bit bigger (population wise) and richer, so for TL's sake, I would keep it so Denmark remains a colonial power.

Say it is Denmark's last hold over it's previous "glory days" if you can call it that.

So the islands are stubbornly kept on, and eventually become Danish/German speaking. A bonus vacation point, would be the many actual Germans going there for vacation due to the language spoken.

Danish India, if Denmark doesn’t sell it to Britain it stay in Danish hand until Indian independence after which it’s given over to India, as a separate Indian state.

Yea again going with no sell, I however doubt Danish India is gonna play a particularly large part, even compared to the West Indies

Danish Gold Coast: Again if it’s kept in Danish hands, it will gain independence in the decolonization, I lean toward it being as well functioning as modern Ghana, maybe a little more as Denmark have likely invested in local tertiary education to produce a local clergy, these same institution will likely end up producing civil servants, which will be nice for decolonized country. The local biracial/Europeanized minority (which exist in OTL) will be more connected to Denmark.

Makes sense, though this TL's Ghana would likely have a different border, just because... well it is Denmark and the Netherlands and not Britain that sits on it.

Namibia: As Denmark doesn’t lose it in WWI as German did, we will see a continued influx of Danes up, which will transform it into a settler colony, if it have the modern border of Namibia, the Danish settlers will live in the 90% southern part of the country and most of the Africans in the 10% northern part, which make a split easy especially because all the interesting mineral are in the southern part, and could leave a White/biracial majority southern Namibia.

Just out of curiosity, did Germany ever send a lot of Settlers? From Wiki Namibia have what.. 3.x million people. Not a massive amount. If Denmark keeps it steady what population could we expect. And if the country splits in two, would the "Danish" part want to stay, or still decolonize with rather close ties to Denmark ?

Alternative we can go with a upper house where all the Danish counts and Barons plus the the head of the Holsteinian Knightly families have a seat. Beside that all the bishops could have a seat, plus some members of the royal family and sidelines. Such a upper chamber would likely have somewhere between 100-150 members. There had only established 57 counties and baronies, and some had disappeared again and a few was in Norway, I'm not sure of the precise size of the Holsteinian nobility. But it would give them a incitament to stay in the union. Of course the Upper House will likely end up removed at some point, when the nobility have lost most of their power. Alternative it could survive as a mostly symbolic institution. I could see a few recognised minority religions also be given a seat, likely the Danish Overrabbiner (supreme rabbi), but it would demand that they wasn't seen as loyal to foreign government (like Catholic Bishops was seen) and organised, so the state was sure they represented their group.

It also bring up another aspect Denmark which include Schleswig-Holstein will have a bigger Jewish population likely over 20.000 but likely even bigger.

I like that, then we can have it end in lets say 1870-80 with a bit more of a democratic system, but it will have served its purpose, tying together the duchies and the Kingdom.

That doesn't sound like a bad idea. I could see Bornholm and Faroe Islands getting increased autonomy around 1900, while Greenland and the Danish West Indies only being integrated as counties instead of colonies in the 50ties and only gaining similar autonomy as the Bornholm and Faroe Islands in 1970ties. Beside that I could see North Friesland being given similar status at some point, but I'm not sure of when.

I was actually thinking about North Friesland too, if their language is kept/revived even more than OTL, then such a thing could very likely happen.

Potential candidates for Queen from the Schleswig-Holstein sidelines are these:


Louise af Slesvig-Holsten-Sønderborg-Glücksborg (1820-1894). She is the sister to OTL Christian IX, 14 years this Christian IX, so not ideal. Was a nun.



Princess Wilhelmine (24 March 1828 – 4 July 1829), died young, she is his cousin (daughter of Christian August II, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg) So not ideal, she have two elder sisters, respectively born in 1823 and 1826 who I don't know who married.

Grand Duchy of Oldenburg have no candidates.

I'm leaning towards Princess Wilhelmine, though she is 7 years his senior.

Else I have to go further south (I think a marriage with a German princess is ideal, but one from a German minded Schleswig sideline is also okay)




----
What's keeping me from progressing the Timeline right now, is my inability to decide what the German Confederations answer to this is and what should happen.
So rough ideas looking forward.


1830'ies, Denmark and the Three duchies get a constitution spanning all four entities, the age of absolutism is at an end. The power lays in the nobility, represented by the Upper Chamber, where all Danish Counts and Barons have a seat, as well as the knightly families of Holstein. Furthermore Bishops and members of the Royal family of are also given seats

Schleswig and Holstein embraces the Schleswig-Holsteiner nationalism wholly, Lauenburg remains firmly "German"


What is The German Confederations reaction to this, I simply don't know. To keep the Holstein nobility happy, Denmark would like to stay in it. But I'm unsure if they will allow it etc.

But for story sake, let's say it does not rock the boat.

1840'ties Danish nationalism emerges, strongly influenced by Schleswig-Holsteiner nationalism. Regular meetings between nationalist of the two groups henceforth.

1848, Christian VIII, dies leaving the throne to the scandalous Frederik VII, as he wants to marry his mistress a commoner with a child born out of wedlock, more important he has gone through two divorces already and has had no children.

Spearheaded by Christian August II, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg in the Upper chamber pressure is laid upon Frederik VII to abdicate the throne in favor of his half-brother the 14-year-old Christian, who is the nephew of Duke Christian. The Holstein nobility is supporters of this, and many of the Danish counts and barons too, Frederik VII's scandals and divorces have done him no favors

1849, with pressure from the Upper Chamber, and now the popular Dowager Queen, Caroline Amalie of Schleswig-Holstein-Sønderborg-Augustenburg supports it too behind the scenes.

Frederik VII relents, abdicates and marries his mistress the following year, he dies in 1865 a happy man.

Ascension of Christian IX, to the Danish throne, his titles are King of Denmark, the Wends and the Goths, Duke of Schleswig, Holstein, Stormarn, Ditmarsken, Lauenburg, and Oldenburg.

1853, Christian IX is married to his 7 years older cousin, the Princess Wilhelmine.

Healthy born babies

1862, Otto von Bismarck is made Minister-President of the Prussian State.

The man has lofty ambition and Danish position in the German confederation becomings increasingly problematic, together with dissent in the pro-German Lauenburg, Otto von Bismarck's eyes are firmly to the North.

1864, war?

 

[arctic warrior]

Interesting - if your base are the Estate assemblies of 1830 it may work to unite the nobilities of Denmark and Duchies. Mostly so if there is more popular revolutionary activity in both parts of the Kingdom/Duchies. That would unite the nobilities in combatting the revolutionaries.
Then dividing Denmark into three(four) subdivisions making these equal to a Duchy could be based on the need to combat future revolutionaries. The Schleswig-Holstein Ritterschaft may view this a weak kingdom needing subdividing to rule effectively though the Icelanders will be elated. Though the King of Denmark will still be ruling duke of Schleswig, Holstein and Lauenburg. That could take some steam out of the Ritterschaft of having their Länder being on par with a Danish Len/Duchy (I would prefer the former as it has recent precedent) but of course in Denmark it would be seen as a continuation of the ancient Lands though adapted to modern times!
Bornholm should be the Kings personal demesne as the island had rid itself of Swedish occupation 1658 and left their island in the hands of the King! A kind of enlarged Christians Ø.

Come 1848 without a language conflict Danish nobility and Ritterschaft would share interest in upholding the status quo. If the unrest at Copenhagen is quelched on the first day the Ritterschaft may ask for the Holstein brigade to be mobilized to counter "their" revolutionaries avoiding German Confederation intervention.

Then there may/will be a long struggle for democratic representation in all the Danish Kings Lands perhaps leading to democratic representation around mid 1860's like in Sweden.

This will butterfly away 1864 I guess; at least Bismarck will need some serious cause to make war on Denmark.
Should he find one the Danish army will count the full Holstein-Lauenburg Confederation contingent of 6000 troops as well as the OTL deemed unreliable Schleswig regiments. The expected better Danish economy (guess thats part of the deal) may make for much better equipped Danish military with modern weapons and a hefty armoured Navy. Time to whip Prussian ass.
The Tsar may still deem Denmark a pack of democratic scum but the other Great Powers may decide to support Denmark as the war will be one purely of conquest.

With a scramble for Africa I too would see the Ritterschaft become a major player in the Danish colonial effort - as in that finished old dusty TL of mine.

 

[Jürgen]

Yea historically their economical value have plummeted after the abolishing of slavery, however in this TL Denmark is quite a bit bigger (population wise) and richer, so for TL's sake, I would keep it so Denmark remains a colonial power.

Say it is Denmark's last hold over it's previous "glory days" if you can call it that.

So the islands are stubbornly kept on, and eventually become Danish/German speaking. A bonus vacation point, would be the many actual Germans going there for vacation due to the language spoken.

Yes I concur with this

Yea again going with no sell, I however doubt Danish India is gonna play a particularly large part, even compared to the West Indies

I could see Denmark trading the mainland part for the British gold coast. If Denmark only control the Nicobars, it's easier to keep control with.

Makes sense, though this TL's Ghana would likely have a different border, just because... well it is Denmark and the Netherlands and not Britain that sits on it.

It would also change some history. If the Dutch keep their part of the Goold Coast, it will be a major recruitment area for their military in Indonesia, and we will likely see a group of mixed race African-Asians, who speak Dutch and are Christians, they may simply be seen as a minority among the Indo (local Dutch community of mixed race ancestry). A small change, but it may result in a slighter bigger Indonesia or the Dutch doing better later against invasion and revolts.

Just out of curiosity, did Germany ever send a lot of Settlers? From Wiki Namibia have what.. 3.x million people. Not a massive amount. If Denmark keeps it steady what population could we expect. And if the country splits in two, would the "Danish" part want to stay, or still decolonize with rather close ties to Denmark ?

This was the reason I took some time to answer your post. Modern Namibia have around 2,5 people, but it was only 200k in 1900, 600k in 1960. Here's a map of Namibia regions.

50% of the population lives region 2-8. Almost all of them African. Outside the rivers there's little of value to Europeans in the region, the mineral wealth lies in the south. Region 12 are the capital region, and home to 1/3 of the rest of the population (or 1/6 of the entire Namibian population). Without the northern part this region would be more European and mixed race, as we woiuld see migration from the north to this region.

In OTL 7500 German settlers (which was how many Germans who wasn't deported by the South Africans) became 30.000 by modern day, beside that there's a 100.000 other Europeans plust 130.000 mixed raced.

I would say on average a 1000 Europeans settlers a year from 1890-1960 would be enough to bring Europeans in clear majority by 1960. What happens afterward depend on the living standard of the African population in the Danish part. I'm going to say they would get citizenship and their living standards will rise. We will likely still see them having a higher birth rate than European after 1960, but as their living standard rises, so will their birth rate falls. I can go in greater details if you want to. As for Danish settlers as a rough rule any first generation settlers will have a birth rate as the one in their homeland times 1,50. So if the birth rate in Denmark when the settlers leave are 2,2 child per woman, you can expect a birth rate of 3,3 child per woman among the settlers.

I like that, then we can have it end in lets say 1870-80 with a bit more of a democratic system, but it will have served its purpose, tying together the duchies and the Kingdom.

Yes sounds likely.

I was actually thinking about North Friesland too, if their language is kept/revived even more than OTL, then such a thing could very likely happen.

It will survive better, the primary reasdon for the near collapse of Frisians are tourism from the rest of Germany. Under Danish control it will see less and more diverse tourism.

Potential candidates for Queen from the Schleswig-Holstein sidelines are these:

Louise af Slesvig-Holsten-Sønderborg-Glücksborg (1820-1894). She is the sister to OTL Christian IX, 14 years this Christian IX, so not ideal. Was a nun.


Princess Wilhelmine (24 March 1828 – 4 July 1829), died young, she is his cousin (daughter of Christian August II, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg) So not ideal, she have two elder sisters, respectively born in 1823 and 1826 who I don't know who married.

Grand Duchy of Oldenburg have no candidates.

I'm leaning towards Princess Wilhelmine, though she is 7 years his senior.

I would say 7 years are to much on the brides side, especially as the prince doesn't need to improve his claim.

Else I have to go further south (I think a marriage with a German princess is ideal, but one from a German minded Schleswig sideline is also okay)

there's this princess

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Louise_of_Prussia_(1829–1901)

She had little influence on history, so her marriage to Christian would have few direct effects outside Denmark

----
What's keeping me from progressing the Timeline right now, is my inability to decide what the German Confederations answer to this is and what should happen.
So rough ideas looking forward.


1830'ies, Denmark and the Three duchies get a constitution spanning all four entities, the age of absolutism is at an end. The power lays in the nobility, represented by the Upper Chamber, where all Danish Counts and Barons have a seat, as well as the knightly families of Holstein. Furthermore Bishops and members of the Royal family of are also given seats

Schleswig and Holstein embraces the Schleswig-Holsteiner nationalism wholly, Lauenburg remains firmly "German"

Lauenburg was very loyal to Copenhagen in OTL, I see little reason for that to change, I can see it not develop the Schleswig-holsteinian nationaliosm, while also wanting to stay in the Danish union

What is The German Confederations reaction to this, I simply don't know. To keep the Holstein nobility happy, Denmark would like to stay in it. But I'm unsure if they will allow it etc.

But for story sake, let's say it does not rock the boat.

1840'ties Danish nationalism emerges, strongly influenced by Schleswig-Holsteiner nationalism. Regular meetings between nationalist of the two groups henceforth.

1848, Christian VIII, dies leaving the throne to the scandalous Frederik VII, as he wants to marry his mistress a commoner with a child born out of wedlock, more important he has gone through two divorces already and has had no children.

Spearheaded by Christian August II, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg in the Upper chamber pressure is laid upon Frederik VII to abdicate the throne in favor of his half-brother the 14-year-old Christian, who is the nephew of Duke Christian. The Holstein nobility is supporters of this, and many of the Danish counts and barons too, Frederik VII's scandals and divorces have done him no favors

1849, with pressure from the Upper Chamber, and now the popular Dowager Queen, Caroline Amalie of Schleswig-Holstein-Sønderborg-Augustenburg supports it too behind the scenes.

Frederik VII relents, abdicates and marries his mistress the following year, he dies in 1865 a happy man.

Sound good

Ascension of Christian IX, to the Danish throne, his titles are King of Denmark, the Wends and the Goths, Duke of Schleswig, Holstein, Stormarn, Ditmarsken, Lauenburg, and Oldenburg.

1853, Christian IX is married to his 7 years older cousin, the Princess Wilhelmine.

Healthy born babies

1862, Otto von Bismarck is made Minister-President of the Prussian State.

The man has lofty ambition and Danish position in the German confederation becomings increasingly problematic, together with dissent in the pro-German Lauenburg, Otto von Bismarck's eyes are firmly to the North.

1864, war?

I doubt it, the 1864 war was opportunisitic in nature andwas pretty much only necessary because of the Prussian humilation in the 1st Schleswig War. Denmark here will likely be very pro-German and very friendly toward Prussia. Bismarck needs another war than with Denmark. The problem is that there's no obvious ones. So Prussia may have to jump directly into a conflict with Austria.

 

[Bastiram]

I would say 7 years are to much on the brides side, especially as the prince doesn't need to improve his claim.

No you're right, Princess Wilhelmine is not really a good choice.

there's this princess

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Louise_of_Prussia_(1829–1901)

She had little influence on history, so her marriage to Christian would have few direct effects outside Denmark

A good idea.

Just for the sake of it, let's go with her younger sister Princess Anna of Prussia, born 1836, for the simple reason she had children OTL. She married into the Electors of Hessen OTL so there is some butterflies but not many (from what I gather). the marriage so far is in 1852 so she would be 16, while the danish king would be 21, that can easily be changed to 1854 for a few extra years.

Lauenburg was very loyal to Copenhagen in OTL, I see little reason for that to change, I can see it not develop the Schleswig-holsteinian nationaliosm, while also wanting to stay in the Danish union

Oh interesting.

So my thought process would be to have Lauenburg staunchly "German", compared to Holstein, but if Denmark aligns itself with German interest then it is probably unlikely to be a problem.

I doubt it, the 1864 war was opportunisitic in nature andwas pretty much only necessary because of the Prussian humilation in the 1st Schleswig War. Denmark here will likely be very pro-German and very friendly toward Prussia. Bismarck needs another war than with Denmark. The problem is that there's no obvious ones. So Prussia may have to jump directly into a conflict with Austria.

Good point.

This will butterfly away 1864 I guess; at least Bismarck will need some serious cause to make war on Denmark.
Should he find one the Danish army will count the full Holstein-Lauenburg Confederation contingent of 6000 troops as well as the OTL deemed unreliable Schleswig regiments. The expected better Danish economy (guess thats part of the deal) may make for much better equipped Danish military with modern weapons and a hefty armoured Navy. Time to whip Prussian ass.
The Tsar may still deem Denmark a pack of democratic scum but the other Great Powers may decide to support Denmark as the war will be one purely of conquest.

So my idea for the Danish Army compared to OTL (around 1864):

Since we have, what I would call conservative's in power, well the nobility I think it likely that the Army will both be better led and funded.

Immediate changes. Larger army, Holstein and Schleswig both contribute to the OTL Danish army in manpower

I think breech loaded rifles would be a obvious, OTL it was tested but I think disregarded due to worry in the amount of ammunition it would consume. A better funded army would probably adopt it (IMO)

Let's get the Espinhol developed a little bit, in the end it is unlikely to be very effective. as more effective weapons would get out in the market in the late 19th century.

Definitly more armoured ships, likely produced at home, though the first probably accured from GB

Rifled artillery :?

Interesting - if your base are the Estate assemblies of 1830 it may work to unite the nobilities of Denmark and Duchies. Mostly so if there is more popular revolutionary activity in both parts of the Kingdom/Duchies. That would unite the nobilities in combatting the revolutionaries.
Then dividing Denmark into three(four) subdivisions making these equal to a Duchy could be based on the need to combat future revolutionaries. The Schleswig-Holstein Ritterschaft may view this a weak kingdom needing subdividing to rule effectively though the Icelanders will be elated. Though the King of Denmark will still be ruling duke of Schleswig, Holstein and Lauenburg. That could take some steam out of the Ritterschaft of having their Länder being on par with a Danish Len/Duchy (I would prefer the former as it has recent precedent) but of course in Denmark it would be seen as a continuation of the ancient Lands though adapted to modern times!

Good points, I definitely see the argument for Len instead of Duchy, been revising the TL in my head, and I think it is a good idea if the constitution arrives in 1830, to keep it so the duchies and the Kingdom is still seperate, even when sharing the same constitution.

Come 1848 without a language conflict Danish nobility and Ritterschaft would share interest in upholding the status quo. If the unrest at Copenhagen is quelched on the first day the Ritterschaft may ask for the Holstein brigade to be mobilized to counter "their" revolutionaries avoiding German Confederation intervention.

Thanks for the details that will come in handy.

@Jürgen & @arctic warrior

My "expertise" if you can call it that, in this period, is very much geared towards the English trade that happened following the war in 1848-51, so every little detail help, so thanks for that

With a scramble for Africa I too would see the Ritterschaft become a major player in the Danish colonial effort - as in that finished old dusty TL of mine.

I remember that one I read it ages ago. Any chance you can link it to me (so I don't have to read through everything you made ) and if you don't mind take inspiration from it :?

I could see Denmark trading the mainland part for the British gold coast. If Denmark only control the Nicobars, it's easier to keep control with.

That makes sense. realistic doing that when OTL the whole shabang was sold to England ?

50% of the population lives region 2-8. Almost all of them African. Outside the rivers there's little of value to Europeans in the region, the mineral wealth lies in the south. Region 12 are the capital region, and home to 1/3 of the rest of the population (or 1/6 of the entire Namibian population). Without the northern part this region would be more European and mixed race, as we woiuld see migration from the north to this region.

In OTL 7500 German settlers (which was how many Germans who wasn't deported by the South Africans) became 30.000 by modern day, beside that there's a 100.000 other Europeans plust 130.000 mixed raced.

I would say on average a 1000 Europeans settlers a year from 1890-1960 would be enough to bring Europeans in clear majority by 1960. What happens afterward depend on the living standard of the African population in the Danish part. I'm going to say they would get citizenship and their living standards will rise. We will likely still see them having a higher birth rate than European after 1960, but as their living standard rises, so will their birth rate falls. I can go in greater details if you want to. As for Danish settlers as a rough rule any first generation settlers will have a birth rate as the one in their homeland times 1,50. So if the birth rate in Denmark when the settlers leave are 2,2 child per woman, you can expect a birth rate of 3,3 child per woman among the settlers.

Very informative thank you very much.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So I got a wild idea bear with me please, again the next stuff is rough draft / ideas.

1801: Battle of Copenhagen, narrow victory for Lord Nelson

1807: Bombardment of Copenhagen and the confiscation of the Danish Navy by the UK.

1807-1812: Gunboat war, Danish alliance with the French Empire.

1813: The Danish State goes Bankrupt

1814: Treaty of Kiel, Denmark cedes Heligoland to the UK and in return for Swedish Pomerania, The Kingdom of Norway is ceded to Sweden. The Norwegian dependencies, Greenland, Iceland, and the Faroe Islands are not part of the deal.

1814: Almueskolen, mandatory education is introduced to the Kingdom of Denmark

1815: Due to Norway declaring its independence, Sweden refuses to hand over Swedish Pomerania, instead Prussia is given Swedish Pomerania, and Denmark receives the Duchy of Lauenburg, bordering the Danish-controlled Duchy of Holstein.

Holstein and Lauenburg are both parts of the German Confederation.

1815-1816: Schleswig-Holsteinisme ideas emerge from F. Falck and F.C. Dahlman at the university in Kiel. In essence, these want a constitution in Slesvig-Holstein, via renewal of the old estate of the realms. The foundation of this would be the Slesvig-Holsteinian Noble estate's privileges as outlined by the Ribe Treaty in 1460. "Up ewig ungedeelt" forever undivided is a cornerstone.

1820'is: Economical boom in Holstein while the Kingdom of Denmark is still struggling in the aftermath of 1813. Rise of German nationalism in Holstein and Lauenburg.

1821: Second Lieutenant Moltke of the Royal Danish Army, accepts a loss of seniority and joins the Prussian army at 21 years of age. He has spent the last 9-years of his life in Copenhagen, first in Cadet school and later as a page to the Danish King.

1829: Due to a sudden illness Frederik VI King of Denmark, Duke of Slesvig, Holstein and Lauenburg dies 61 years old.

His Cousin Christian VIII Ascends the throne, he is 43 years old. (Change from OTL/ POD)

1830: Landvogt U. J Lornsen, a proponent of Schleswig-Holsteinism, is unsuccessful in gaining a constitution for a Slesvig-Holstein which only shares a King and Enemies with the Kingdom of Denmark.

Across Europe, there is a clamor for reforms, in Denmark where Nationalism hasn't spread like wildfire less so, But the duchies are another story.

Work on introducing the Danish School reforms in the duchies is met by an unforeseen unwillingness, large parts of Slesvig, which used to speak danish now speak German.
The school reform wants to use the church language for the schools which means Danish will be taught.

This unwillingness to support the Danish School Reforms is by nationalist both German and followers of the Schleswig-Holsteinisme idea, as this is seen as an attack upon their way of life. An effort by the Danish monarch to make the duchies Danish.

The backlash has Christian VIII retract on the reforms for now, already a bit put off by the efforts of U. J. Lornsen to distance the duchies and the Kingdom.

1831: Queen Caroline Amalie (35 years old), second wife of Christian VIII to the surprise of many falls pregnant and a healthy son is born, named Christian, this is their first and only child.

1832: A revised school reform is introduced in the Duchies, instead of basing the school language on the church language. It depends on the language spoken in the given area. This is celebrated as a win in Schleswig-Holstein.

1833: First draft of a Constitution for The Kingdom and the Duchies, the days of the most absolute monarchy in Europe are numbered.

In essence the duchies and the Kingdom shares an identical constitution but are yet separate entities. At the center of government is a Upper-Chamber, where Danish Counts, Barons and the Ritterschaft of Schleswig-Holstein all have seats. Furthermore bishops and members of the royal family also have a seat.

In an effort to weaken the position of the Kingdom of Denmark it is essentially split into four lens (regions).

Jylland, Fyn, Sjælland and Island. Each of these will send their own representatives.

Much like the duchies of Schleswig, Holstein and Lauenburg will.

While it is hard to call this democratic in a modern sense, it is leaps and bounds ahead of the absolute nature of the Kingdom and Duchies before.



1834: Crown Prince Frederik is separated with his first wife Crown Princess Vilhelmine Marie of Denmark, his 1st cousin once removed, and the daughter of the late Frederik 6.
the separation is due to the "difficult" nature of Crown Prince Frederik.

1837: Crown Prince Frederik and Crown Princess Vilhelmine are finally divorced. No children are borne from the marriage.

1840'sh: Crown Prince Frederik is introduced to Luise Christine Rasmussen, by Johann Carl Ernst Berling a printer. Who is also father to her child borne out of wedlock. She is a commoner,

Danish nationalism emerges, strongly influenced by Schleswig-Holsteiner nationalism. Regular meetings between nationalist of the two groups henceforth.

1841: Crown Prince Frederik is married to Caroline Charlotte Mariane of Mecklenburg-Strelitz.

1842: The new Crown Princess Mariane of Mecklenburg-Strelitz is increasingly isolated and her health is failing.

1844: the Crown Princess leaves Denmark to visit her parents, she refuses to return to Denmark and her husband.

1846: Crown Prince Frederik is divorced from his second wife. No children are borne from the marriage.
The divorce is by the Danish court blamed upon the Princess' ill-health, though it is probably her inability to cope with her husbands wild and unbearable lifestyle.

1847: Christian VIII, King of Denmark dies (A year earlier than OTL, blame it on stress being king 10 years more than OTL) leaving the throne to his oldest son, the Crown Prince Frederik, who upon ascension to the Danish throne, is now Frederik VII.

Crown Prince Christian 17 years old, leaves Denmark for a trip across Europe. He is the heir to his half-brother, due to said brother having no children as of yet.

The trip is a short one, Crown Prince Christian spends the majority of his time at the court in Prussia where he meets the Grand Daughter of the King of Prussia, Princess Anna of Prussia.

By all accounts, he makes a good impression on the Prussian court.

Nonetheless, barely a year into his journey he has to return home.

1848: Frederik VII. makes his mistress Luise Christine Rasmussen into Lensgrevinde (Countess?) Danner, he intends to marry her.

This leaves much of the nobility outraged, calls for Frederik VII to step down, and leave the throne to his younger brother, Prince Christian is heard. Amongst the loudest voices are the young prince's uncles
Frederik Christian II. Hertug (Duke) of Slesvig-Holstein-Sønderborg-Augustenborg and Frederik Emil August, The Prince of Nør.

Crown Prince Christian is recalled from his European tour by his uncles.

1849: The beloved Dowager Queen joins her voice to her brothers, insisting that the King steps down.

The "official" merging of Danish Nationalism and Schleswig-Holsteiner Nationalism. hencefort it will be known as Danish Nationalism, but it will draw its history from the founding of Schleswig-Holsteiner ideology back in 1816

Sale of Danish holdings in mainland India to Great Britain, the Nicobar islands are kept. the deal includes the sale of British forts along the Gold Coast to Denmark.

At the end of the year, King Frederik VII relents and abdicates the Danish throne.

1850: The ascension of Christian IX, King of Denmark, the Wends and the Goths, Duke of Schleswig, Holstein, Stormarn, Ditmarsken, Lauenburg, and Oldenburg.

The first most topic is who the bachelor king should marriage.

One suggestion is the two years older Princess Louise of Prussia, which the King met during his "European" tour.

1851: Danish (led by the king's uncles) delegation arrives at the court of Prussia. The goal is a betrothal of Princess Louise of Prussia

Secretly Christian IX have conferred to his uncles that he had been more impressed by said Princess Louise younger sister, while she at the time had been but 12 Her intelligence, poise, and wit had caught his attention.

1852: King Christian IX is married to Princess Anna of Prussia.

The coming years the couple will prove immensely popular.

Queen Anna, will gather around her a impressive court salon of outstanding artists and musicians, while predominantly hailing from Germany, many Danish artists are among the gathering. Notably, H.C. Andersen is a regular guest.

The Skagen painters in later years would also be among this group.

1853: Danish politics have become decisively pro-prussian.

1850'ies: Low scale struggle across the duchies and the Kingdom, the people want a more equal democratic representation.

1860'ies: The desire for this becomes far more widespread, violence in the bigger cities are not uncommon, a few times troops have to be called upon to put it down.

1864: 7-18 of April this year, large scale riots in Copenhagen. the 18th especially is a bloody day, ending with "Stormen af Kastellet," The Storming of the Citadel. In the end, the riots are put down as the rioting population is unsuccessful in taking any key objectives. Nonetheless, they have succeeded in opening the eyes of the Nobility.

1866: Austro-Prussian war, With Holstein and Lauenburg on the side of Prussia in the conflict, the entire Army of the Duchies and the Kingdom is mobilized.

A common saying is that if the Regiments of Holstein and Lauenburg is fighting, then so is the regiments of Schleswig and Denmark too.

While the Kingdom and the duchies successfully mobilize 50.000 troops (too much?) for the use in the war, they will never see combat.

Peace is agreed upon between Prussia and Austria before the Danish army can arrive.

Being near Berlin as the peace is agreed upon, all they can do is return home.

In need of celebrating the victory in Berlin, Ducal and Royal troops (so the Danish army), neither of which have participated is paraded through the city. (simply the largest body of troops near Berlin)


1867: The riots have done their intended work a new constitution is agreed upon finally uniting the Kingdom and the duchies.

The basis remains the four Lens and the three Duchies, their names remain as such, but in all they function identically.

This brings a headache to Bismarck.

He is not interested in having Denmark inheriting the seats of Holstein and Lauenburg of the North German Confederation, being a somewhat heavier weight than the two duchies.

In the end, Denmark has built enough goodwill to join, a large part of the elite of Prussia mentions that Denmark have a navy and colonies already, something the aspiring German Empire wants (too early, to be used as an argument ?)


1870-1871: Franco-Prussian War, the North German Confederation mobilized, including the Danish Navy and Army. This time Danish troops will see fighting.

1871: Formation of The German Empire.

Great Britain internally screams as The German Empire has a much better starting position for a naval race

Don't know if it is a bit too much but thought it would be fun to take it this way.

 

[Jürgen]

Interesting way you have gone with Denmark joining the North German Confederation and later the empire. My general thoughts are that this will mean that Germany will go into the colony race from the start. I would say this could change the peace treaty. A obvious change would be that the Danes would expand into French presence along the Ivory and Slave Coast.

Prussia could take French Indochina as a imperial colony.

Beside that I could see some political conflict between Denmark and Prussia over whether the navy would be imperial or individual member states would have their own navy. I could see a compromise where Denmark pretty much take over the running of the German navy, and the Danish land army mainly end up as a defensive force with most conscripted Danes simply serving as sailors and marines.

Fundamental this will mean that Danish heavy industry will mostly be focused on shipyards, somewhat similar to OTL but just on a grander scale.

 

[Bastiram]

Interesting way you have gone with Denmark joining the North German Confederation and later the empire.

Yea, to be honest, I am not half settled on the idea myself. It is a take on the "what if Denmark keeps Schleswig-Holstein and in return join the German confederation" idea that goes around following 1864. Which is always shot down.

The idea is fascinating but, a more realistic outcome would probably be that Denmark + the duchies and the German confederation separate amiable. Both realizing that there are simply too many differences between them.

Nonetheless, I wanted to explore this path, because Germany with Denmark as part of it has always fascinated me.

My rough ideas for big events would be the following.

1870-1910:

German Empires build up, compared to OTL it would have a considerable larger navy.

World War 1910-191x

Germany is probably defeated. Much bloodier naval engagement across the war.

Denmark is during the peace treaty separated from Germany, this would be a British demand to remove the threat of a German navy.

Heck, we might even see Hamburg becoming part of this Denmark.

Probably no WW2, too many butterflies. On the otherhand, if the peace treaty is as harsh as it was OTL, maybe war is inevitable.

A obvious change would be that the Danes would expand into French presence along the Ivory and Slave Coast.

Prussia could take French Indochina as a imperial colony.

Interesting points, one of the reasons that I see Prussia accepting Denmark, is because it would give them a immediate colonial empire of sorts. So I could see this happen.

Beside that I could see some political conflict between Denmark and Prussia over whether the navy would be imperial or individual member states would have their own navy. I could see a compromise where Denmark pretty much take over the running of the German navy, and the Danish land army mainly end up as a defensive force with most conscripted Danes simply serving as sailors and marines.

Fundamental this will mean that Danish heavy industry will mostly be focused on shipyards, somewhat similar to OTL but just on a grander scale.

Agreed, the idea I think is simple having German resources being poured into the Danish navy.

Having the danish conscription leaning heavily towards the Navy makes sense too.

 

[Jürgen]

Yea, to be honest, I am not half settled on the idea myself. It is a take on the "what if Denmark keeps Schleswig-Holstein and in return join the German confederation" idea that goes around following 1864. Which is always shot down.

The idea is fascinating but, a more realistic outcome would probably be that Denmark + the duchies and the German confederation separate amiable. Both realizing that there are simply too many differences between them.

Nonetheless, I wanted to explore this path, because Germany with Denmark as part of it has always fascinated me.

I have thought about it for a few days, and my conclusion would thsat this is not the right POD for this. The Schleswig-Holsteinian identity here run counter to German nationalism, and I think it could be interesting to see Denmark as a still small, but slightly bigger actor in Europe.

But you could still make Denmark a Prussian ally in the Austro-Prussian and Franco-Prussian wars, with Denmark gaining Benin as a Danish interest area. Of course if Denmark make some colonial gain as a ally of Prussia, it could put some pressure on Prussia to also gain colonies for prestige reasons. The likely gain of Prussia would be Senegal, Cochinchina, Cambodia (as a proctectorate) and New Caledonia. I think Bismarck will insist on no American colonies, as this would risk alienate the British and Americans