Alamgirnama: A Mughal Timeline

[Madhukar_Shah]

I'm honestly very surprised by the Mughal Californian colony. But it makes sense. I'm pretty sure India is closer to California by sea than Europe. At least until the Panama Canal is finished.

I'm also surprised by the conversion of so many to Buddhism, but pleased. I think the egalitarian and practice-focused nature of Theravada will be a nice counterbalance to the caste system of the Hindus and the mysticism of Sufi-led Islam in India. It also should appeal to the dalits when it really spreads around.

Well it’s not really a Californian colony per se- it really is just a trading outpost in an independent state. For the moment, thé Indians are the only ones there apart from the Spanish and for continued access to California they’re dependant on island hopping from Java to the Phillipines to Japan and then across the Pacific.

What I’m trying to get a sense of here is that at the moment, India is going through a period of cultural uncertainty as the old paradigm is shifting. Populations displaced from their old homes, where previous hierarchies are being overturned in the name of capitalism and where the social order is decaying are drifting towards philosophies that are more and more skeptical. There is a rapidly growing number of really well off farmers who can now put capital into jagirs and receive shares, the population is rocketing, and the urban population is larger than that of Japans plus the British empires total population. For the moment, the growth in prosperity from the opening up of the economy and more liberal taxation has carried people through, but neither is such a massive urban population sustainable without proper infrastructure and neither is this bubble of growth going to last forever. After all, by this point most people don’t remember what it was like before the liberalisation and have lived their entire lives getting used to growth and growth and growth- how will they react do you think, if an economic recession sets in across the country?

 

[souvikkundu25140017]

will Mughals try to conquer native state in America?

will we see different branches Buddhism appearing in India like Tendai, Zen, and Shingon?

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

will Mughals try to conquer native state in America?

will we see different branches Buddhism appearing in India like Tendai, Zen, and Shingon?

For now, the Mughal government couldn’t care less about the Americas- all interest is from private actors. And I’m sure that there will be an even greater number of varieties of Buddhism than there were in classical india, but apart from certain concepts I think Japanese varieties on the whole are far more amicable to the Indian cultural mindset than Chinese varieties, as they operate on a slightly more metaphysical layer.

 

[souvikkundu25140017]

Are Mughals now far more interested in Southeast Asia?

How caste system is reconciling with Native Americans? what is the status of a child born from the union between a native American and Indian?

does beef-eating taboo implement upon new converts?

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

Are Mughals now far more interested in Southeast Asia?

How caste system is reconciling with Native Americans? what is the status of a child born from the union between a native American and Indian?

does beef-eating taboo implement upon new converts?

Well of course, the Mughal government itself only cares about its traditional foreign policy areas for the most part in Turan and the Islamic world to the west. Diplomatic relations have been started with the eastern kingdoms but often those are the private initiative of a particular mansabdar who benefit particularly from claiming to represent the Mughal government in negotiations. The Burmese empire on the other hand is a direct threat to Bengal and so the central mughal government is maintaining relations with them primarily for security not trade.

Thé caste system is legitimising Native American social stratification, not changing its fundamental nature. Many convert communities reject caste anyway.There’s no formal demarcation of status of natives and mestizos, it’s too soon for anything like that, and anyways the same dynamic is playing out all over Southeast Asia so apart from being a bit odd, as long as it’s a proper marriage nobody really cares.

The "beef eating taboo" doesn’t apply to millions of Hindus in India itself, the new converts too have very different views on whether it’s permissible or not. For the most part anyway, because they do better in the swampy California valley, the main beast of burden is the water buffalo, on whom no such restrictions apply.

 

[Rajveer Naha]

What happened to the Yazidis and the Bengali immigrants who were set to settle in a new land?

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

What happened to the Yazidis and the Bengali immigrants who were set to settle in a new land?

At the moment, they’re just trying to do their own thing and set up stable settlements. It’s not very exciting really at the moment.

 

[Ganesha]

You've clearly put a lot of effort into this TL and it shows. Fascinating reading! Glad I found it.

Cheers,
Ganesha

 

[Nurhaci]

Have any plan of Mughal Industrialize?

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

Have any plan of Mughal Industrialize?

I’m getting on to it fairly soon so I don’t want to give away too much. There’s a little bit of brain drain going on from Europe, like I’ve already said, with Italian artists setting up in India. Perhaps some others strapped for capital may try their luck in the golden bird.

You've clearly put a lot of effort into this TL and it shows. Fascinating reading! Glad I found it.

Cheers,
Ganesha

Thank you so much- honestly it’s not work if you’re having fun, and researching obscure politics, early modern scientific and cultural developments has been anything but boring. Hope you enjoy reading of the troubled times ahead.



But for now, I think the Gurkanis have had it too good. The country is changing and so is the internal politics. As a fun little exercise, what are all the absolute worst things that can happen to the Peacock Throne- I want to see how many of them I have planned.

 

[LostInNewDelhi]

But for now, I think the Gurkanis have had it too good. The country is changing and so is the internal politics. As a fun little exercise, what are all the absolute worst things that can happen to the Peacock Throne- I want to see how many of them I have planned.

• Religious riots in the heartland, and/or place-of-worship destruction.
• Massive rural famine, or disease outbreak in ballooning industrial cities.
• Premature death of emperor leading to corrupt/weak regency, especially if it's entangled in struggles between old Irani/Turki/Afghan noble cliques and the new Hindavi jagirdars.
• Pro-western nationalist movements in Bengal/Tamilakam, covertly supported by local subehdars hoping to become kings.
• Bloody overseas colonial war (Russo-Indian wars over Turan, marching through one too many jungles in Arakan/Borneo) or internal insurgency (peasants rebelling against zamindars) drains resources and radicalizes soldiers/officers.

 

[Deleted member 107125]

So

I’m getting on to it fairly soon so I don’t want to give away too much. There’s a little bit of brain drain going on from Europe, like I’ve already said, with Italian artists setting up in India. Perhaps some others strapped for capital may try their luck in the golden bird.



Thank you so much- honestly it’s not work if you’re having fun, and researching obscure politics, early modern scientific and cultural developments has been anything but boring. Hope you enjoy reading of the troubled times ahead.



But for now, I think the Gurkanis have had it too good. The country is changing and so is the internal politics. As a fun little exercise, what are all the absolute worst things that can happen to the Peacock Throne- I want to see how many of them I have planned.

Good to see you continuing this.

 

[IntellectuallyHonestRhino]

@Madhav Deval, you have done a marvelous job with this TL thus far!


Two general questions:

1. What is the state of the Mughal textile industry, as well as the Mughal tea, minerals and Mughal Bengal's muslin industry (I know those are textiles but I'm curious about both the general situation and the situation in Bengal)?

2. What percentage of the Empire is Theravada Buddhist? Vajrayana Buddhist? Sunni? Hindu? And what about in different regions (Bengal, present-day Uttar Pradesh, Karnataka, Delhi, etc.) Is Hinduism now a more rural religion ITTL? If so, that would be very interesting for future politics, with Hinduism being tied to rural conservatism and Theravada Buddhism urban progressivism (I'm assuming the vast majority of ITTL Indian Buddhist's are Theravada Buddhists).

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

@Madhav Deval, you have done a marvelous job with this TL thus far!


Two general questions:

1. What is the state of the Mughal textile industry, as well as the Mughal tea, minerals and Bengal's muslin industry (I know those are textiles but I'm curious about both the general situation and the situation in Bengal)?

2. What percentage of the Empire is Theravada Buddhist? Vajrayana Buddhist? Sunni? Hindu? And what about in different regions (Bengal, present-day Uttar Pradesh, Karnataka, Delhi, etc.) Is Hinduism now a more rural religion ITTL? If so, that would be very interesting for future politics, with Hinduism being tied to rural conservatism and Theravada Buddhism urban progressivism (I'm assuming the vast majority of ITTL Indian Buddhist's are Theravada Buddhists).

Thank you so much!

Thé textile industry is of course the main base of Mughal exports, and the main lubricant of the domestic economy as well. While there are still millions who don’t own more than a single pair of clothes or only tend to wear enough to cover their unmentionables, in a lot of south east Asia, textiles from India are used in place of currency. Karkhanas owned by mansabdars produce textiles for markets around the world, apart from the Americas, and east Asia owing to the relatively closed states there. Despite the incredible growth in exports they’re still (just about) overshadowed by the domestic trade it’s like a forty sixty split. Other industries I’ll get on to soon, I’ve actually already written quite a bit of the opium and mining industry.

Different sects appeal to different members of society- those who focus on the mercantile aspects, such as the massive staff of a jagirdar that advise him on investments and bankers and people like that have a a higher percentage of Theravada Buddhists. On the other hand the traditional elite are more interested in vajrayana Buddhism mainly because of the cultural prestige of the Mongols and while of course the elite are the ones who are much less likely to convert, those who want to emulate elite fashions are more susceptible. So while Theravada is more popular, it may be a more even split than you’re assuming. Of course, Islam is a more urban religion in general, forming almost half the population of some cities even in the Hindu heartland- weirdly though, in a lot of the more islamised areas, the urban majority is Hindu or Sikh especially Kabul and Thatta. It would definitely be incorrect at this point to characterise Hinduism as a provincial religion of the countryside or even of reactionary traditionism.

 

[haider najib]

Im back im over the stuart britian.
I really want to see more on the mughal princes and their intrigue can we see more of the mughal princesses there power over the courts and the power there names give them. Also can we see some power of the emperor mothers, they are so interesting as they can be non-muslim and they hold alot of influence over the ruler.

Can i please get an explanation on whats happeing in Iran monarchy like a five year old.

Who is the crown prince/emperor of the mughal im super confused can i get another five year old explanation.

Can we see some philosophy that rejects the greek shit. Fuck them, celebrate ancient india the people who stopped the hellenstic savages last thing the world needs is more ancient greece circle jerk, let us celebrate the nanda empire and and punjabi princes who stopped the greeks, lets celebrate gupta who went to war with selecus himself and conquered his eastern empire.

There was something else but i have forgotten.

They were also to be introduced to sexual experience with many women

?

This explains the lavish gifts exchanged between Mughal and Safavid rulers, it was an attempt to prove sovereignty over the other by outdoing them, and why English monarchs failed to ever be seen as powers by the Badshahs of Hindustan despite frequent diplomatic overtures- they could present only petty trinkets and thus in the eyes of Delhi were just as insignificant as their gifts

Please give us a comedy skit of this too much potential to be waisted.

paintings depicting emperors of old and young noblemen in dalliances with women, though these are commoners, for the chastity of noblewomen was too sacrosanct to violate on canvas

Kamasutra?

For most however, there was little stigma attached to this denouement for there was at the time little counterposition between sexuality and morality

Are nobility allowed to do this paintings of them boning woman also is it allowed for the woman to be a mughal princesses?

His daughters subsequent attempts to secure her dignity and fraught relationship with her husband as he at times afforded her the role her father intended and at others very noticeably did not. As for the monarch himself, in a cruel twist of fate, Reza Shah announced that there wasn’t the money to complete a tomb and Aurangabadi Mahal had to write letters to her Indian cousins asking for money. At least some of this money we know was appropriated by her husband for himself. In the end, the Tomb of Sikander Shah in Isfahan is known as an enchanting if somewhat modest structure, being roughly based on the Gur-I Amir mausoleum of Timur in Samarqand in terms of colour and structure though featuring a number of classical Mughal motifs taken directly from the tomb of Akbar in Fatehpur Sikri, such as the minarets topped with chhatris

Whats happening in persia?

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

Im back im over the stuart britian.

Yeah- you’re not the only reason I went back and gave Britain a bit of a rewrite as I did feel I had just done Europe dirty and I’m much happier with what I’ve got now, but thanks for the critique it did make me better I think.

I really want to see more on the mughal princes and their intrigue can we see more of the mughal princesses there power over the courts and the power there names give them. Also can we see some power of the emperor mothers, they are so interesting as they can be non-muslim and they hold alot of influence over the ruler.

You’re right, I want to see that as well, it’s incredibly interesting. I’ve shied away from it a little as it’s a little more difficult for me to write but I think at this point it’s high time I get into it especially because with the ever increasing centralisation what happens at the centre is ever more important. I do actually have some things planned already but it needs some more polishing.

Can i please get an explanation on whats happeing in Iran monarchy like a five year old.

Basically, sikander shah has arrived and he’s tried to copy paste some Mughal reforms and ideas into the Iranian political situation, he’s also trying to religiously increase the influence of sufis after the Safavid persecution of many sufis. Further he’s a Mughal by birth so is replacing Turki as language of the court and government with Persian which wins him the admiration of the sart urban literati, not so much of the Turkish military elite. He’s a great patron of the arts like his ancestor Ibrahim adil shah of Bijapur but is Iran’s tax base large enough to support the bureaucracy needed for his reforms or for the central military or lavish building projects he’s been up to? Where could he have been finding all of that money? In any case his successor, Reza Shah Afshar has been more than derisive of Sikander Shahs legacy and time will tell how far he goes to fix the problems he sees in the Iranian administration.

Who is the crown prince/emperor of the mughal im super confused can i get another five year old explanation.

I’ll get onto crown princes in a minute when I delve into the politics of the imperial family, but for now suffice it to say that Prithvi Narayan Shah has been rather more fertile than his successor. Prithvi Narayan Shah is the emperor who’s main policies are shu’ubiyya that proclaims indian cultures equality with that of Iran and Arabia, the standardisation of laws based on the arthshastra and with inspiration from the hanafi fiqh but even Aurangzebs farmans often deviated from the Hanafi opinions contained in the fatwa alamgiri, and the Farman e Narayan is a little more deviant in some areas and a little less in others, and doing away with all traces of feudalism- essentially he’s attempting to be an enlightened absolutist. Muslim Judges still have wide discretionary powers as per Islamic tradition though other faiths judges are required in more cases to stick to the farmans despite the weight that local precedence holds. He’s also a little more expansionist than his father was, which will have consequences.

Are nobility allowed to do this paintings of them boning woman also is it allowed for the woman to be a mughal princesses?

Yeah but no- the paintings are almost always of religious figures having intercourse, and it’s just artistic license if the religious figures happen to bear a striking resemblance to this or that nobleman or this or the painting features motifs reminiscent of this or that old emperor. Meanwhile for noblewomen- no, at least none that they would publicly make anyone aware of or let leave their most private sanctums. You must remember that this was a period where cucumbers, carrots and other long vegetables were sometimes banned from the women’s kitchens. It’s very male gazey with most normal paintings of noblewomen sexualised, and yet female sexuality is policed strictly. It’s nice to have you back.

 

[haider najib]

Meanwhile for noblewomen- no, at least none that they would publicly make anyone aware of or let leave their most private sanctums. You must remember that this was a period where cucumbers, carrots and other long vegetables were sometimes banned from the women’s kitchens. It’s very male gazey with most normal paintings of noblewomen sexualised, and yet female sexuality is policed strictly. It’s nice to have you back

I think your confused i mean noble men who order them but the woman who is bring banged on the painting are mughal princesses or are very similar to mughal princesses ie mughal prince "is that a painting of the my sister being f*****", guy married to his sister "well yes its shows my man strength". That would be a power play.

I feel lile the mughals have not had enough disease. The population is massive cities growing disease should be rampant.

Economics i haven't read that update in a while but mughal empire super reliant on trade it seems its internal economy has been neglected the only development it has had is to help trade. China doesn't need trade to survive mughals do. Some reforms are needed here.

Can we get some qing and mughal interactions. The dick waving would be next level these are two nations that match eachnother yet no interactions yet.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

Can we get some qing and mughal interactions. The dick waving would be next level these are two nations that match eachnother yet no interactions yet

There are interactions, mostly commercial at this point, but the Titans have conflicting interests in Central Asia, Southeast Asia, and Mansabdars are of course pushing for better trade deals with China.

Economics i haven't read that update in a while but mughal empire super reliant on trade it seems its internal economy has been neglected the only development it has had is to help trade. China doesn't need trade to survive mughals do. Some reforms are needed here.

Agriculture is still the main part of the economy owing to simply how many people are in the field. The Mughals dont need trade to survive, they need trade to maintain growth to reward their functionaries in ever grander ways.

I think your confused i mean noble men who order them but the woman who is bring banged on the painting are mughal princesses or are very similar to mughal princesses ie mughal prince "is that a painting of the my sister being f*****", guy married to his sister "well yes its shows my man strength". That would be a power play.

What it would be is incredibly rude and a surefire way to bring down imperial anger and become a pariah from polite society. Also very few Mughal princesses actually get married, ever since Akbar adopted Rajput marriage practices, and those that do marry cousins for the most part, who have nothing to gain by trying to show their strength in comparison to the imperial family.

I feel lile the mughals have not had enough disease. The population is massive cities growing disease should be rampant.

Oh don’t worry, I’m getting to that. Especially in the more humid malaria infested east, cities can be cesspools of disease and that has real consequences for industry and politics.

 

[haider najib]

Also very few Mughal princesses actually get married, ever since Akbar adopted Rajput marriage practices, and those that do marry cousins for the most part, who have nothing to gain by trying to show their strength in comparison to the imperial family

They don't marry in one of the update is said woman get little education and married off early so i assumed changes over female mughals happened.

Started re-reading europe stuff. Im confused on britian spain and sweden seized scotland supporting jacobites to force london out of the war. So is the UK under Stuart rule or not? As the update where sweden seizing english america makes it seem like the hannovrians lost the uk. Can you just clear this up.

Morroco becoming meme netherlands was fun just a mercenary nation fighting everwhere. Got money? Moroccans in Scandinavia!.

Im not sure which update it is but do the weird heretical muslims still exist in spain then?

Do the nizams of hyderabad exist?

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

They don't marry in one of the update is said woman get little education and married off early so i assumed changes over female mughals happened.

Yeah, that tends to be the case for most noblewomen, but of course in Rajput marriage practices, the family that gives the girl is subservient to that which gives the groom and unlike most other families, it is unthinkable for the imperial family to be subservient to any other.

Britain is still Hanoverian, but the Jacobite rebellion of 1725 is based off of otls 1715 rebellion when they took the northern half of scotland- it’s more successful here and takes all of Scotland but ultimately still fails and fairly quickly at that too.

Yeah there are still Muslims in Spain that are considered slightly off, but the convention is that Muslims don’t question each other’s good faith, and the Spanish government considering its alliance with Morocco and value of the Indian trade is unwilling to alienate either by expelling them or preventing them from practicing Islam, especially considering the new Bourbon government is trying to reduce church power.

No the Mughal government at the moment is too centralised to allow a viceroy of the Deccan to establish himself as the nizams of Hyderabad did otl.