Es Geloybte Aretz Continuation Thread

isn't that really bad? Also russia abandoned the loans, they defaulted isn't that really bad for denmark. As far as we know only france got their bonds redeemed why would germany get denmarks bond redeemed they know how you think.

No it’s not bad in this timeline, because Danes invested in factories, which they will still own when Russia are rebuilding. Here Germany will pay loan off to Denmark, which the Danes can use to make extra investments. It’s a microcosm of what’s happening all over north Europe, German and Russian money under the war are kickstarting industries and development of financial in the neighboring countries, who was willing to borrow them money.

Also how is the danish military doing do they still have a strong navy?

The Danish army are big for a country of its size, but use obsolete equipment (this will of course change), the navy are small, but fully up to date, Denmark was a major shipbuilding nation at the time, and had a major focus on the navy. But if German goes to war with Denmark, Denmark doesn’t have a chance
 
With Britain focusing on the developing quagmire in Ireland I think they will be too distracted to worry about Denmark.

Is it possible for Denmark to turn to France? France has beef with Germany over Alsace-Lorraine and Denmark has beef with Germany over Schleswig. France will be concerned that Germany is trying to isolate them from the European market. Perhaps Belgium and Denmark could be French aligned as a counter to the Netherlands and Sweden being German aligned?

Of course the issue there is self sacrifice. If Denmark and (to a lesser extent) Belgium chose to not engage with Mittleeuropa their economies will suffer. Would Denmark not just swallow their pride and just work with the Germans?

Denmark will be part of Mitteleuropa, it will just seek other partners, to make Berlin believe that they can’t just walk over Copenhagen, but in the end if Berlin ask Copenhagen to jump, the only thing Copenhagen will say will be “how high?”
 
Denmark will be part of Mitteleuropa, it will just seek other partners, to make Berlin believe that they can’t just walk over Copenhagen, but in the end if Berlin ask Copenhagen to jump, the only thing Copenhagen will say will be “how high?”
So denmark wants to be the first among equals of mittleleuropa little states?

Here Germany will pay loan off to Denmark
Which loan? Also wouldn't russia have heavily borrowed from denmark losing this by defulting meaning denmark has nothing. Those loans are worth more than the factories.
 
So denmark wants to be the first among equals of mittleleuropa little states?

Denmark will care about making money


Which loan? Also wouldn't russia have heavily borrowed from denmark losing this by defulting meaning denmark has nothing. Those loans are worth more than the factories.

Germany have loaned from Denmark to buy Danish goods, Denmark have invested in Russia it didn’t loan them money, that was the pattern we saw in WWI. Germany need what Denmark produced (food primarily), Russia needed Danish expertise not Danish products, so the Danes opened factories in Russia and build infrastructure. In OTL this was something of a failure as Germany lost the War and Danish property in Russia was confiscated with the Communist takeover. But here Russia can’t afford to get rid of Danish expertise, and they don’t nationalism all property.
 
So denmark wants to be the first among equals of mittleleuropa little states?
Depending on what you call little, that seems overambitious. Sweden or the Netherlands (if part of Mitteleuropa proper) would be a size too big - though I guess before decolonization the Netherlands can still pretend to be a middle power rather than a little one.
 
But there’s something which may cause problem between Denmark and Germany again; Schleswig, Danish population was pretty stable in Schleswig under German rule, the Danes had a higher birth rate, but the Danish surplus population moved into Flensburg, where they stopped being Danes and became German Social Democrats, this also meant that Flensburg stopped being a Danish majority city, after the majority Danish areas returned to Denmark (Flensburg also stopped growing at that point). But this is a weak balance, and I could see potential problem arising there. A Flensburg which continuing growing will stay the same size as Kiel together with the greater population of a united Schleswig, this will likely result in demand of Schleswig becoming a separate province from Holstein, which will be supported by the Danish minority, and objected to by local conservatives and liberals, with SPD caught in the middle. This will create headaches in both Berlin and Copenhagen.

The Schleswig issue will be a continuing irritant, just like Alsace-Lorraine and the Polish minorities along the border. But these things don't start wars. Just strongly worded letters and stupid populist legislation.

Can Denmark not join the bountiful German empire! Why would it be any trouble for the danish gov why would they be involved they very little influence there to deal with this issue.

Denmark is a small country with a very long and proud history. In the age of nationalism, joining the German Empire is out of the question. Afterwards, it is no longer an attraction. You get all the benefits of commercial integration, and Germany pretty much has to militarily guarantee Denmark against all comers anyway. It's the situation of Switzerland vis-a-vis NATO.

With Britain focusing on the developing quagmire in Ireland I think they will be too distracted to worry about Denmark.

Is it possible for Denmark to turn to France? France has beef with Germany over Alsace-Lorraine and Denmark has beef with Germany over Schleswig. France will be concerned that Germany is trying to isolate them from the European market. Perhaps Belgium and Denmark could be French aligned as a counter to the Netherlands and Sweden being German aligned?

Of course the issue there is self sacrifice. If Denmark and (to a lesser extent) Belgium chose to not engage with Mittleeuropa their economies will suffer. Would Denmark not just swallow their pride and just work with the Germans?

Denmark and Belgium will work with Germany, but having a counterweight around is nice when negotiating, say, who pays for railway links, who gets fishing rights where, and so on.

This, pretty much. Belgium has the added bonus of close commercial integration with France (which is a MUCH richer country than Germany ITTL) and Britain (even more so). Denmark has only Britain, by sea. They need Germany, so they have to be useful, but they don't have to be a pushover because they are useful enough to know their worth.

Which loan? Also wouldn't russia have heavily borrowed from denmark losing this by defulting meaning denmark has nothing. Those loans are worth more than the factories.

Russia was not allowed to default. It's in the terms of the Treaty of Baden-Baden. Not that it helped anywhere near as much as the German loans. Denmark was happy to invest in both belligerents.
 
The Ausgleich of 1937

No country in history, as English historian Frederick Taylor put it, ever gambled more recklessly than the Austro-Hungarian Empire when it put the renewal of its very existence to a decennial vote. This had not been the intention behind the Ausgleich, but this was ultimately what it was felt to represent: the opportunity for the separate bodies of the Empire to choose whether the continuation of their union was in their continued interest. What had been intended as a tool of adjusting a working agreement without constitutional changes became an emotionally highly charged political game as time progressed. Eventually, no political party could afford to retreat without losing face. Compromise, the lifeblood of Austria-Hungary, became toxic. The breakdown of civic structures that followed this downward arc of comity brought the Empire to its knees.

The Ausgleichsverhandlung scheduled for 1907, still a largely technical exercise, though already observed keenly by the press, were rendered moot by the ongoing war, ultimately leading to almost no changes. The following institutional stasis that was supported by a widespread veneration of Emperor Franz Joseph, a saintly figure since his death at the height of a terrible but victorious war. The turmoil caused by economic dislocation, war, and rapid industrialisation might have been managed better by a more flexible system of government. The Austro-Hungarian civil service was exemplary in its even-handedness and skill, but it could do little to address the problems of the modern era. Frustration with this state of affairs was intense by the time the 1917 negotiations began.

Hope attended the auspicious beginning of a new chapter in Austro-Hungarian history as a relatively young and still vigorous emperor laid out his agenda: Equal treatment to Slavs and Romanians, systematic reform of public administration, expanded social policies, and a greatly expanded role to the military in the running of government. Franz II Ferdinand's successes were limited despite his ability to cast Hungarian opponents of the Ausgleich as reactionary obstructionists. It was enough to leave the Hungarian elites deeply disaffected, but not enough to win the hearts of the still disadvantaged Slavic peoples. This was a greater problem than it need have been because relations between the nations of Cisleithania were still strained because of widespread collaboration by Czechs, Slovaks and Ruthenians. The popular press, especially papers with German nationalist leanings, continued to paint them as potential enemies within and made much of the supposed ingratitude of the Polish minority. As conservative politicians increasingly turned to ethnic nationalism as an antidote to Socialist mobilisation of the poor, these attitudes increasingly poisoned public discourse.

The 1927 negotiations were mired in discord and difficulty from the beginning. Under the shadow of a growing economic crisis and led by an ageing, increasingly isolated and disillusioned emperor, they would nonetheless produce sufficient progress to create a false dawn of hope for many liberal commentators. Yet the prospect of victory for a reasonable compromise would be ground to dust between the increasing acrimony of nationalist agitation that accompanied the economic downturn of the late 1920s, the seething anger of a Hungarian ruling class marginalised in the new order, and the weakening of central authority under the pressure of dwindling revenues and fading memories of war.

All of this makes it all the more tragic to consider that the actual compromise hammered out in 1937/38 could have been effective. Had the parties involved been willing or able to look past their bruised egos and allowed politics to take their course, there is every reason to believe the new incarnation of the Empire relying more strongly on elected provincial assemblies and less on the central governments of Vienna and Budapest would have shaken itself into shape. The escalation of political sabotage, grandstanding and violence that followed instead would destroy any hope for a peaceful resolution.
 
So Austria-Hungary will most likely collapse, or with violence Austria finally breaks the Hungarian back. Its a shame only if blessed Karl could have taken the throne he would have saved the empire.

My bois the ottomans better not get fucked, they already being slapped around it would be elderly abuse at this point.
 
Kukexit?

Belgium has the added bonus of close commercial integration with France (which is a MUCH richer country than Germany ITTL) and Britain (even more so).

Hey, what happened to the "wank" part of this German-wank? Is it just delayed due to the need for Germany to, shall we say, de-Imperialize itself?
 
A few thoughts about France staying richer than Germany, I don’t think it will be the case, it’s no accident that Scandinavia are as rich as they are, it have a lot to do with the economical model it follow, the high union membership and low corruption. Germany follow a somewhat similar model, but it was even more similar before the World Wars. The French model mixed with the low union membership and higher corruption means that France will grow slower in the long term, even with their empire to fuel their economy and the massive influx of capital from staying out of the war. In fact the empire may work against France as their informal post-colonial in OTL have given large French companies access to a large market with little competitions which have allowed French companies to stay less competitive than their German counterparts.
 
Kukexit?



Hey, what happened to the "wank" part of this German-wank? Is it just delayed due to the need for Germany to, shall we say, de-Imperialize itself?

Germany is still wanked compared to IOTL and by missing the Nazis the gap is only going to get bigger.
 
Germany is still wanked compared to IOTL and by missing the Nazis the gap is only going to get bigger.

Historical estimates of GDP per capita generally show Germany being richer than France (not accounting for distribution, of course) by 1913.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...P_(PPP)_per_capita#Europe_1830–1938_(Bairoch)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita#1–1800_(Maddison_Project)

Of course, the war will knock this back for a bit, but Germany must perform economically worse than OTL to stay behind France.
 
Of course, the war will knock this back for a bit, but Germany must perform economically worse than OTL to stay behind France.

The main difference here is that France is doing much better than historically, because they didn't spend 4 years in a massive war that was fought mostly on their territory.
 
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