Wi: Arab Siberia

[yoyo]

WI after the battle of talas, a large Arab Muslima army gets lost in kazakhstan, and they settle around lake balkhash and marry the local asian women there and arabize the region. They then expand in the manner of Scythians from Amu Darya, and the Turks from mongolia and arabize and islamize much of siberia by absorption of turks. I think rice would be eaten in eastern europe much earlier.

 

[FranzAncheNo]

Time to call an expert.
@John7755 يوحنا

 

[yoyo]

@Anawrahta bro where ru

 

[DocJamore]

@Anawrahta bro where ru

He got Kicked.

 

[yoyo]

He got Kicked.

Dam

 

[Averrhoes]

After a certain extent, the Arab settlers will simply assimilate into the local population such as in Khorasan, South Asia, East Africa, and the Caucasus. If they can't culturally override these regions, then they certainly can't do so in steppe regions.

 

[LostInNewDelhi]

I'm skeptical of their prospects in any case, but to succeed so far from the Caliphate's effective reach this exile army will need a local power base. It is perhaps possible for these exiles to link up with the defeated remnants of the Gokturks and retake the Mongol plateau from the Old Uyghurs (who by that time have only been ruling those lands for around 10 years) while the Uyghurs' Tang ally struggles with the An Lushan rebellion. However, I dont really know where such Gokturk exiles would be found, I assume they just melted into the Uyghur/Tang aristocracy.

Another problem is that at this point Buddhism is still quite influential-- and with these exiles so far from the Caliph and surrounded by Turks and Uyghurs, who is really going to punish them for apostasy?

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

I assume that when you say, Muslima, that this is a spelling error and you do not mean an army of Muslim women.

A lost Muslim army, will certainly be reintegrated into the Abbasid Caliphate, which will re-establish contact and demand reunification, which will be granted, assuming the Abbasid are still strong in 800 CE. The Abbasid caliphate was already the dominant power in Sogdia, Kwarezm and so forth, a lost Muslim army that manages to conquer a sector of the former Celestial Turk realm, will be hailed as great mujahadeen by the Abbasid realm and be given autonomy and rulership to conquer what it pleases. This will be difficult most certainly though, entropy will be on the side of the steppe hordes as the Abbasid Caliphate weakens in its authority.

Remember, in this early period, the Abbasid state did not accept any state or land as Muslim unless it was at least nominally under Abbasid Caliphal protection and rule.

 

[Anawrahta]

@Anawrahta bro where ru

im back

 

[yoyo]

I assume that when you say, Muslima, that this is a spelling error and you do not mean an army of Muslim women.

A lost Muslim army, will certainly be reintegrated into the Abbasid Caliphate, which will re-establish contact and demand reunification, which will be granted, assuming the Abbasid are still strong in 800 CE. The Abbasid caliphate was already the dominant power in Sogdia, Kwarezm and so forth, a lost Muslim army that manages to conquer a sector of the former Celestial Turk realm, will be hailed as great mujahadeen by the Abbasid realm and be given autonomy and rulership to conquer what it pleases. This will be difficult most certainly though, entropy will be on the side of the steppe hordes as the Abbasid Caliphate weakens in its authority.

Remember, in this early period, the Abbasid state did not accept any state or land as Muslim unless it was at least nominally under Abbasid Caliphal protection and rule.

They might ally with the Kyrgiz against the Uyghur empire, Kyrgyz might even become muslim, and the Uyghurs might develop a form of holy war on Manichaean buddhist principles. How would Tibetans react to a possible collapse of buddhism so early on? Could they launch an invasion of Transoxiana and Bactria?

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

They might ally with the Kyrgiz against the Uyghur empire, Kyrgyz might even become muslim, and the Uyghurs might develop a form of holy war on Manichaean buddhist principles. How would Tibetans react to a possible collapse of buddhism so early on? Could they launch an invasion of Transoxiana and Bactria?

The Tibetans may try and they did try in otl and were defeated by the Umayyad and Abbasid generally. Tibetan invasions and coups occurred in Kabulistan and Bactria. Most infamously, the Tibetans countered the Muslim conquest of the northern reaches of Afghanistan and Bactria, by killing the local emir and appointing a Buddhist governor-vassal over the area. This attempt was rapidly harried and reversed by the Arab armies, despite general Arab preoccupation with enemies on different fronts. As it stands, Tibet was unable to counter the Islamic power in Asia, west of Kashgar.

 

[yoyo]

The Tibetans may try and they did try in otl and were defeated by the Umayyad and Abbasid generally. Tibetan invasions and coups occurred in Kabulistan and Bactria. Most infamously, the Tibetans countered the Muslim conquest of the northern reaches of Afghanistan and Bactria, by killing the local emir and appointing a Buddhist governor-vassal over the area. This attempt was rapidly harried and reversed by the Arab armies, despite general Arab preoccupation with enemies on different fronts. As it stands, Tibet was unable to counter the Islamic power in Asia, west of Kashgar.

There could be a more concerted effort with a Uyghur-Tibetan alliance against the Arabs and Kyrgyz. The zoroastrians might be more embolden to revolt and this could lead to earlier crumbling of Arab rule here.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

There could be a more concerted effort with a Uyghur-Tibetan alliance against the Arabs and Kyrgyz. The zoroastrians might be more embolden to revolt and this could lead to earlier crumbling of Arab rule here.

Tibet would do well not to trust the alliance of steppe empires, which tend to exchange sides like the wind. The Tang had utilized very large numbers of Karluk and Uyghur mercenary and allies against the Umayyad-Abbasid armies. While in the initial conflicts, this was an effective and cheap defensive ploy, the Tang over played their hand and the varied steppe levies were payed more by the Arab armies and defected at Talas. If Tibet uses these Uyghur, it must be with great caution, as at a moments weakness, they will do like the Jin did to the Song and invade the Tibetan holdings the moment they seem to be weak. I would suggest that Tibet focuses its effort on aligning to the Neo-Hepthalite Zunbil states in the south, who are both closer to the Islamic heartland, near to the potential areas of rebellion in Iran and have shown promise in defeating the Arab armies in the recent decades. Tibetan interests would be more inclined to restrict the Uyghur, just as much as restricting the Arabs.