WI: Edward VI dies in 1553, but Henry FitzRoy had survived?

[FalconHonour]

Hmm very true, I imagine a Howard would be in play also

He's got the Howards behind him because of Mary and their children. He doesn't need them. Although, maybe, if Henry knows the Dudleys want links to the throne, maybe he'll offer them Elizabeth for Guilford instead of his marrying Jane Grey so that they won't support the Greys over him... Elizabeth/Guilford could be an interesting match, especially given her OTL relationship with Robert...

 

[VVD0D95]

He's got the Howards behind him because of Mary and their children. He doesn't need them. Although, maybe, if Henry knows the Dudleys want links to the throne, maybe he'll offer them Elizabeth for Guilford instead of his marrying Jane Grey so that they won't support the Greys over him... Elizabeth/Guilford could be an interesting match, especially given her OTL relationship with Robert...

Oh now that would be fascinating, perhaps Robert giving his brother horns aha

 

[FalconHonour]

Oh now that would be fascinating, perhaps Robert giving his brother horns aha

Well, actually... If you are going to cuckold your husband with anyone, his brother isn't the worst choice. At least it would probably make it easier to pass any children off as your husband's if you needed to... not that I am condoning such actions, of course!!

 

[VVD0D95]

Well, actually... If you are going to cuckold your husband with anyone, his brother isn't the worst choice. At least it would probably make it easier to pass any children off as your husband's if you needed to... not that I am condoning such actions, of course!!

Aha very true

 

[isabella]

He's got the Howards behind him because of Mary and their children. He doesn't need them. Although, maybe, if Henry knows the Dudleys want links to the throne, maybe he'll offer them Elizabeth for Guilford instead of his marrying Jane Grey so that they won't support the Greys over him... Elizabeth/Guilford could be an interesting match, especially given her OTL relationship with Robert...

The Greys would still have an inferior claim to his... but I guess who with Hal and his children to secure the succession Edward and his council will marry Elizabeth to the heir of a Protestant ruler for getting a good alliance (or maybe she will be married to Edward Seymour’s eldest son by Anne or to Robert Dudley as butterflies here can very well prevent his wedding to Amy).

 

[kasumigenx]

I think Mary can be removed by marrying her to Philip of Neuberg.

 

[isabella]

I think Mary can be removed by marrying her to Philip of Neuberg.

No. Mary will never be married. Consenting her to marry would be too dangerous (for Edward’s council of regency) AND with a surviving FitzRoy is likely who Henry VIII would never take in consideration the idea.

 

[jb3]

In any case, I imagine a middle-aged guy with a family of his own, who's well-known to the English populace, who has been in the succession conversation for decades and isn't tied to the unpopular manoeuvrings of Northumberland, and has significant ties throughout the nobility via the Howards (even if some of the Howards experience OTL's downfall) would be in a much better position to hold the throne vs Mary than Jane Grey was IOTL- and that's if Mary still makes a play.

There's still the religious angle to consider, though. Whether that's enough to get Mary any appreciable support against a relatively legal-ish looking Fitzroy succession, I don't know. Things here also depend on the nature of Fitroy's Protestantism- is this Protestantism in the vein of his father, or the more radical form espoused by his half-brother? A more moderate form probably improves his prospects.

While I don't think Henry would do this (Fitzroy by his very name was illegitimate from the get-go and not in retrospect by Henrican fiat) since it is unlikely Fitzroy would be acknowledged by the rest of Europe, even many Protestant powers (and certainly not Charles V or the French). Whatever was in Henry VIII's head about his daughter Mary's legitimacy, almost no one in Europe (or even a large part of the English population) agreed with him and she was regarded on the Continent as a princess (and cousin of the Emperor, and as Catherine of Aragon's daughter, possibly a Spanish princess in her own right if Charles V desired it - could Bessie Blount's son say the same?). BUT if he was put in the line of succession by Henry himself, Mary might comply (might, I say) - as long as Fitzroy doesn't make a move on her. Remember Northumberland sent troops to seize Mary (and Elizabeth), probably to kill them (could Northumberland have let either live?) and was just prevented from doing so by Mary getting a heads-up from a loyal courtier that her brother had died before "Queen Jane's" army could get her. If Fitzroy just lets her alone, and is even more complacent about her being able to practice here religion as she liked (which Edward was not) she might be OK with that.

 

[kasumigenx]

No. Mary will never be married. Consenting her to marry would be too dangerous (for Edward’s council of regency) AND with a surviving FitzRoy is likely who Henry VIII would never take in consideration the idea.

While I don't think Henry would do this (Fitzroy by his very name was illegitimate from the get-go and not in retrospect by Henrican fiat) since it is unlikely Fitzroy would be acknowledged by the rest of Europe, even many Protestant powers (and certainly not Charles V or the French). Whatever was in Henry VIII's head about his daughter Mary's legitimacy, almost no one in Europe (or even a large part of the English population) agreed with him and she was regarded on the Continent as a princess (and cousin of the Emperor, and as Catherine of Aragon's daughter, possibly a Spanish princess in her own right if Charles V desired it - could Bessie Blount's son say the same?). BUT if he was put in the line of succession by Henry himself, Mary might comply (might, I say) - as long as Fitzroy doesn't make a move on her. Remember Northumberland sent troops to seize Mary (and Elizabeth), probably to kill them (could Northumberland have let either live?) and was just prevented from doing so by Mary getting a heads-up from a loyal courtier that her brother had died before "Queen Jane's" army could get her. If Fitzroy just lets her alone, and is even more complacent about her being able to practice here religion as she liked (which Edward was not) she might be OK with that.

Neuberg is harmless marriage for Mary as he is protestant and Mary would renounce her claims to England as she has no business England and cannot mount her claims.

 

[Mike Louis]

As I said in my previous posts, the question will be does Henry VIII insert Richmond into the succession ahead of Mary and Elizabeth and expose England to potential civil war and or foreign invasion (Spain / HRE will back Mary while France / Scotland will back the Stewarts) upon Edward VI’s death or he takes sensible precautions and places Richmond after Mary and Elizabeth (causes the least amount of succession shenanigans as no major faction won’t be offended)?

 

[isabella]

As I said in my previous posts, the question will be does Henry VIII insert Richmond into the succession ahead of Mary and Elizabeth and expose England to potential civil war and or foreign invasion (Spain / HRE will back Mary while France / Scotland will back the Stewarts) upon Edward VI’s death or he takes sensible precautions and places Richmond after Mary and Elizabeth (causes the least amount of succession shenanigans as no major faction won’t be offended)?

The Stewarts will not have any claim ahead of Mary and FitzRoy’s succession would be acceptable for Spain as they had too much trouble elsewhere for fighting a war for Mary (who would likely destroying her internal support already reduced in confront to her OTL one)

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

Because Fitzroy, for all his faults of birth, is indisputably the King's acknowledged SON. In a patriarchal society, he has one major advantage over either of his half-sisters (and indeed, Jane Grey). He's male. Also, if he's married and has children ITTL, he can do one thing that neither the ageing, unmarried Mary, nor the teenage Elizabeth, can do. He can give England a secure, indisputable Succession right from the Off, especially if one of his children with Mary Howard is a living, healthy boy. Plus, he has a massive age advantage over Elizabeth, at the very least. Jane Grey had none of the above advantages.

And he's not seen as the puppet of a widely disliked politician.

 

[GeorgeIV]

I want more of this idea...