The Footprint of Mussolini - TL

[andry2806]

Duuuude.

I think that under the disguise of an interesting different outcome of WWII you're creating one of the most terrifying and best constructed dystopias on AH.com.

By the way, I imagine that in the future Patton will be remembered even worse than Wallace. I mean, yes, Wallace had helped the Soviet Union to build its realm of terror, but not even him has permitted it to expand its sphere of influence on the American continent. With Cuba in the Italian sphere, I don't want to know what happens when the ITO and the Roman Alliance will have a falling out.

 

[thanix01]

I think that under the disguise of an interesting different outcome of WWII you're creating one of the most terrifying and best constructed dystopias on AH.com.

I think this timeline is straight up “dystopia” what make it interesting is making ideology we disagree with having success which can make it rather uncomfortable.

Sure it is worse of than OTL for some (poor poland and finland) but it is no where near as bad for everyone as TNO timeline.

 

[gurgu]

Isn't Austria ruled by the Habsburgs again? If so, were there any talks of reuniting Austria and Hungary under Habsburg rule? My memory's a bit foggy on this one, is any of this true?

if i remember well, few chapters ago Otto von Hapsburg took the Hungarian throne, but haves to bee neutral so there can't be any reunification with Austria since it's under italian control. There is still a chance of this happening but we have to wait for the USSR to be unable to protest against such action since it would inevitably bring the reformed AH in the roman alliance( Benny wants the reunion but is waiting for support from all the UN except super mario commie)

 

[Falecius]

(poor poland and finland)

And Slovenia, Jordan, Syria, Greece, Iran...
However, it is true that this is not unmitigated disaster across the board.

 

[Lalli]

Isn't Austria ruled by the Habsburgs again? If so, were there any talks of reuniting Austria and Hungary under Habsburg rule? My memory's a bit foggy on this one, is any of this true?

Habsburgs are in Hungary and IIRC Austrian throne has taken by cadet branch of Savoy. And Hungary is enforced to be neutral. Not sure what is case of Austria. But there will not be re-unification of A-H. Even if USSR and Italy are fine with that Hungarian nationalists never would accept that. So I can't see any re-born of the empire. It is dead and will remain dead.

Duuuude.

I think that under the disguise of an interesting different outcome of WWII you're creating one of the most terrifying and best constructed dystopias on AH.com.

By the way, I imagine that in the future Patton will be remembered even worse than Wallace. I mean, yes, Wallace had helped the Soviet Union to build its realm of terror, but not even him has permitted it to expand its sphere of influence on the American continent. With Cuba in the Italian sphere, I don't want to know what happens when the ITO and the Roman Alliance will have a falling out.

This is clearly worse world than OTL but hardly yet as bad as Twilight of the Red Tsar.

Patton might be remembered as Mussolini's useful idiot but it will be seen how far he is allowing Mussolini going in American backyard. But Patton hardly is stupid enough giving vital nuclear secrets to Mussolini. But Mussolini hardly need much help anyway. Probably Italians know already quiet much and are not far from first nuclear bomb. And this is something which is worrying me. Using the bomb is not moral problem for Mussolini and his cronies.

 

[thekingsguard]

So the role of the Soviets in assassinating Gandhi is similar to their role in killing JFK - unknown until after the fall of the Soviet Union, by which point, its far too late for them to suffer the consequences?

At least we know now that the Soviet Union will still indeed fall.

As far as Thailand and southeast Asia is concerned, with chaos in British India/Burma and French Indochina, might we see Thailand reclaim some of the bits they had ceded during the colonial era?

 

[gurgu]

Habsburgs are in Hungary and IIRC Austrian throne has taken by cadet branch of Savoy. And Hungary is enforced to be neutral. Not sure what is case of Austria. But there will not be re-unification of A-H. Even if USSR and Italy are fine with that Hungarian nationalists never would accept that. So I can't see any re-born of the empire. It is dead and will remain dead.



This is clearly worse world than OTL but hardly yet as bad as Twilight of the Red Tsar.

Patton might be remembered as Mussolini's useful idiot but it will be seen how far he is allowing Mussolini going in American backyard. But Patton hardly is stupid enough giving vital nuclear secrets to Mussolini. But Mussolini hardly need much help anyway. Probably Italians know already quiet much and are not far from first nuclear bomb. And this is something which is worrying me. Using the bomb is not moral problem for Mussolini and his cronies.

Well, the two main ideators of the atomic energy itself are the Italians Enrico Fermi and Ettore Majorana.
While(in OTL) Majorana dissapeared in unresolved circumstances, Fermi escaped to the USA because he's wife was Jewish BUT, since in TTL Benny loves Jews he would still help the americans develop the atomic bomb( OTL was director in Manhattan project) but his wife might force him to shares the project with her lord and savior Benito

 

[Seandineen]

Given that TTLs Fascists have displayed significant helpings of Pragmatic Viliany, they might recognize the advantages of Disillusioned Communists publicly repenting. It's not like that needs to be a binary choice between pardon all or none. Make examples of the ringleaders, while pardoning most rank and file. A few years later after carefully pre-selecting interviewees, they can make a propaganda movie about former Communists who now lead productive lives, lamenting about how stupid they were wasting years of their lives following a false saviour.

There was a book in otl The God that failed. Make a ken burns style series fifty years earlier

 

[CalBear]

So the role of the Soviets in assassinating Gandhi is similar to their role in killing JFK - unknown until after the fall of the Soviet Union, by which point, its far too late for them to suffer the consequences?

At least we know now that the Soviet Union will still indeed fall.

As far as Thailand and southeast Asia is concerned, with chaos in British India/Burma and French Indochina, might we see Thailand reclaim some of the bits they had ceded during the colonial era?

JFK?

 

[thekingsguard]

JFK?

Lee Harvey Oswald was a lifelong socialist/communist who had literally defected to the Soviet Union, and there was considerable fear that Oswald's connections to the Soviet Union may result in significant blowback from the USA - which never happened, and oddly, was never publicised by the US Government until a round of documents was declassified in 2018. Oddly, that fear is part of what resulted in the Soviet Union's main role in the Kennedy assassination: supporting the creation and spread of the various conspiracy theories surrounding JFK's death, literally making donations to the authors of several early tomes from that train of thought, including Lane's Rush to Judgement, from where we get crap like the grassy knoll.

It's one of the Cold War's odder chapters, going from fearing the Americans may nuke them by association, to one of the most successful Soviet disinformation campaigns of the Cold War, and we're only now learning about it. The only real JFK conspiracy, it turns out, was the one to create many of the conspiracy theories. Kind of ironic in a fashion.

 

[Herr Frage]

Habsburgs are in Hungary and IIRC Austrian throne has taken by cadet branch of Savoy. And Hungary is enforced to be neutral. Not sure what is case of Austria. But there will not be re-unification of A-H. Even if USSR and Italy are fine with that Hungarian nationalists never would accept that. So I can't see any re-born of the empire. It is dead and will remain dead.

Otto was made king of Hungary by a referendum, though one with the British and Italians putting a finger on the scales. Otto and the new Hungarian government seem to be using neutrality as insulation to drive for a western style democracy, like the post Authoritarian government in Romania.

Austria is a Fascist state, the former Austrian Dictator has been recovered from Nazi custody and it back in power. it seems to be setting up like the Warsaw Pact states of OTL. The Austrian Fascists will run the local affairs de facto, and de jure the foreign policy; but Italy is the senior partner and reserves a right to meddle if Austria seems to be leaving the Fascist line. Italy wants Austria string though as both a market for them, and to add a credible military to its assets for the expected next round with the Soviets.

I could see some resurgent Habsburg support in Austria here. Namely that if the Hungarian experiment succeeds certain antiFascists could see the dynasty as Antifascist, allies of democracy, and absence of excessive foreign influence. Had to say how the Hungarians will feel; by the time the Cold War ends. Though there will be no reborn AH i am intrigued at the concept of some kind of Danubian confederation between some of the former Habsburg possessions.

 

[CalBear]

Lee Harvey Oswald was a lifelong socialist/communist who had literally defected to the Soviet Union, and there was considerable fear that Oswald's connections to the Soviet Union may result in significant blowback from the USA - which never happened, and oddly, was never publicised by the US Government until a round of documents was declassified in 2018. Oddly, that fear is part of what resulted in the Soviet Union's main role in the Kennedy assassination: supporting the creation and spread of the various conspiracy theories surrounding JFK's death, literally making donations to the authors of several early tomes from that train of thought, including Lane's Rush to Judgement, from where we get crap like the grassy knoll.

It's one of the Cold War's odder chapters, going from fearing the Americans may nuke them by association, to one of the most successful Soviet disinformation campaigns of the Cold War, and we're only now learning about it. The only real JFK conspiracy, it turns out, was the one to create many of the conspiracy theories. Kind of ironic in a fashion.

Ah. Might want to be more clear in the future. It read very differently as initially posted.

 

[Icedaemon]

Certainly, the primary draw of this timeline is that this is a topic which has not been covered before to my knowledge and is very fascinating, not any affection the majority of the followers of this thread have for the main 'protagonist'.

That said, the ITTL RA is better than the OTL Warsaw Pact primarily becsude it is more of a club of equals, not by choice but by circumstance. Italy might be calling the shots, but Turkey is almost their peer. Bulgaria, Spain and Portugal might be weaker, but they have a great degree of freedom in their own decisionmaking - Portugal for example could probably switch at any point from RA to ITO with nothing more severe than some harsh diplomatic shouting and maybe some sanctions. Patton might be a little too accommodating towards the Italians, but it's not very likely to lead to extreme troubles. Prior to the war, Italy was resource-poor and industrially backwards. Unlike the soviets, they lack the vast expanse of wilderness with many varied resources to discover and a massive population to leverage. They had and still have a lot to build up to if they are to economically surpass the old colonial powers and will certainly be miles behind the USA economically unless there's a Yellowstone eruption or something in this timeline. I also do not see them ever surpassing whatever form of russia comes out of the fall of the soviet union, at least not for long. Thus, being much weaker and trying rather hard to be friendly to the democatic nations, Italy will be seen as perhaps a somewhat grubby and distasteful partner, but not an outright foe.

As for Italy ever being the 'third power' in the world - should for example Britain throw their full technological support behind India in this coming conflict (and it would be odd if they didn't), perhaps in exchange for India accepting Commonwealth status, India is almost guaranteed to make a significant economic and industrial recovery after the civil war, perhaps taking the place of OTL China but doing so earlier and probably being more democratic and liberal.

 

[yeetboy]

I think Italy’s main strength is it’s diplomatic position as leader of a globe spanning alliance and cordial relations with the West. Even with the the expanded territories and maintained colonies, I would expect a revitalised West Germany following OTL’s German economic miracle would surpass Italy’s industrial capabilities, even more so with the addition of Dresden into west German borders.

Id also be interested into seeing how colonial languages affect post-colonial African nations. Higher literacy rates in these languages could lead to less ethnic conflicts between these emerging nations. Also, excuse me if I missed it, but was there any insights on what is happening in Dutch East Indies, or Indonesia? The independence movements were much more violent and I could see them falling right into the Comintern’s hands barring any Western intervention.

 

[Legault]

Would Argentina really benefit in having some trade agreement with the Italian alliance?
Afaik its' econnomy relies on the agro export model but most of the countries of the Roman are already agrian power, such as Spain, southern Italy, Greece, Turkey, Romanie, Hungary.

 

[Sorairo]

Would Argentina really benefit in having some trade agreement with the Italian alliance?
Afaik its' econnomy relies on the agro export model but most of the countries of the Roman are already agrian power, such as Spain, southern Italy, Greece, Turkey, Romanie, Hungary.

It gets military aid, tech expertise and the like, not to mention it makes the West feel okay knowing they’re not Red.

 

[Lalli]

There is list of heads of state and governments of some major nations:

Presidents of United States

32. Franklin D. Roosevelt (Democrat) 1933 - 1944
33. Henry A. Wallace (Democrat) 1944 - 1948
34. Harry S. Truman (Democrat) 1948
35. Joseph Martin (Republican) 1948 - 1949
36. George S. Patton (Republican) 1949 -

Leaders of USSR

Josif Stalin (1924 - )

Monarchs of United Kingdom

George VI (1936 - )

Prime Ministers of United Kingdom

Winston Churchill (Tory) 1940 - 1950
Hugh Gaitskell (Labour) 1950 -

Leaders of France

Philippe Petain (1940 - 1944, Vichy)
Charles de Gaulle (1940 - 1944, Free France)
Charles de Gaulle (1944 - , provisional government/Fourth Republic)

China

Chiang Kai-Shek (1928 - , Republic of China)
Mao Zedong (1945 - , People's Republic of China)

Monarchs of Italy

Victor Emmanuel III (1900 - 1947)
Umberto II (1947 - )

Prime Ministers of Italy

Benito Mussolini (1922 - )

Leaders of Nazi Germany

Adolf Hitler (1933 - 1944)
Heinrich Himmler (1944)

Emperors of (West-) Germany

Ferdinand V (1949 - )

Chancellors of Post-War Germany

Konrad Adenauer (CDU) 1949 -

 

[Ferd42]

Emperors of (West-) Germany

Ferdinand V (1949 - )

Were the federal monarchies restored?

 

[Joriz Castillo]

Emperors of (West-) Germany

Ferdinand V (1949 - )

Was the German Empire resurrected?

 

[gurgu]

Was the German Empire resurrected?

yes i think, since 2 out of 3 main participant( west side) were monarchies they decided that a kaiser was necessary to prevent people like hitler