Design the perfect littoral combat ship....

[Khanzeer]

Ship is expected to fulfill the role in the 1965 to 1985 period
It has to be designed with low intensity conflicts and brush fire wars in mind
Primary customers third world countries
Jack of all trades
Think of a Naval ship equivalent of F5A/E
What weapons sensors will it carry?
Size tonnage?
Any special features? Like
Troop carrying capacity, helos etc

 

[jsb]

Ship is expected to fulfill the role in the 1965 to 1985 period
It has to be designed with low intensity conflicts and brush fire wars in mind
Primary customers third world countries
Jack of all trades
Think of a Naval ship equivalent of F5A/E
What weapons sensors will it carry?
Size tonnage?
Any special features? Like
Troop carrying capacity, helos etc

That's a very wide range of requirements can you be more specific?

Are you looking more cheap frigate, fast attack craft, landing craft or river gunboat?

 

[Khanzeer]

That's a very wide range of requirements can you be more specific?

Are you looking more cheap frigate, fast attack craft, landing craft or river gunboat?

Not a river gunboat but a compromise craft that can handle the role of a FAC , cheap frigate and able to conduct small scale amphibious operations

 

[jsb]

Not a river gunboat but a compromise craft that can handle the role of a FAC , cheap frigate and able to conduct small scale amphibious operations

Still hard, you have two different options,

FAC - small and fast with expensive engines (and potentially guns)

Cheap frigate - amphibious operations, needs space and volume and doesn't have the speed and helicopters are not cheap (actual working ASW/AAW is also very much not cheap)

Are you wanting new build or can a cheap second hand ship do? A second hand WWII LST might do very well?
What threat level are you fighting, AKs or a real fight?

 

[Khanzeer]

Still hard, you have two different options,

FAC - small and fast with expensive engines (and potentially guns)

Cheap frigate - amphibious operations, needs space and volume and doesn't have the speed and helicopters are not cheap (actual working ASW/AAW is also very much not cheap)

Are you wanting new build or can a cheap second hand ship do? A second hand WWII LST might do very well?
What threat level are you fighting, AKs or a real fight?

I'd go with the frigate one
Potential enemies are
Guerillas ...RPG / AK and
Other naval vessels OPV, corvettes , frigates , gunboats, IPV , LST.
Some degree of AAW capability against helos , small attack aircraft
Some sealift capacity as you do not have the resources to spend on specialized vessels
ASW not required , if needed a very rudimentary will do as your opponents either have 50s era Soviet or WW2 era western subs
New vessel or can modify existing vessels

 

[sonofpegasus]

For the mid sixties the Vosper designed The Alvand class frigate built for the Shah of Iran's navy pretty much fills the OP requirement, this was used as the basis for both the Libyan Dat Assawari class frigate and eventually the RN type 21 class.

 

[jsb]

I'd go with the frigate one
Potential enemies are
Guerillas ...RPG / AK and
Other naval vessels OPV, corvettes , frigates , gunboats, IPV , LST.
Some degree of AAW capability against helos , small attack aircraft
Some sealift capacity as you do not have the resources to spend on specialized vessels
ASW not required , if needed a very rudimentary will do as your opponents either have 50s era Soviet or WW2 era western subs
New vessel or can modify existing vessels

What sort of budget, manpower and nation are you?

Who are your suppliers/allies?

What on the above list is needed and what is nice to have?

New or second hand?

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Fast, Cheap or Sealift Capacity, pick two, unless you mean cheap by First World standards

Really you don't need a Frigate, just a corvette. Difference between Frigate and Corvette at base is that the Frigate has more range and better seakeeping, as a third world country you don't need those, you won't be operating far from home

Armament at least is simple 57-100mm main gun, 4-8 AshM, Exocet most likely though Harpoon and Otomat are okay, some machine guns and 2-4 20-40mm Autocannon, a CIWS and a Crotale/Chaparral/SA-8 class SAM. If you need ASW add depth charges, and ASW torpedoes or mortars or rocket launchers.

Amphibious capacity is the rub. If you just want to be able to put a bunch of infantry raiders ashore a ~2000 ton large Corvette could do the job if you pack in men like sardines, if you need to land vehicles and cargo, you are probably at least 1000 tons larger as you need to carry a couple LCM equivalents on Davits, plus space for cargo/vehicles. Probably cheaper just to buy a Corvette and an LST than try to do both on one hull

 

[historyfelon]

I served on a DEG (only 6 in the class..which says something about their usefulness). This was during the period your looking at, 1973-74. If you take away it's main AAW and ASW weapons (Tartar and ASROC) and eliminate the main air search radar and the SQS-26 Sonar..with its bulbous bow you could make it a shallow draft, high speed craft with more close in firepower, I think. we had a hanger for a helo, and in place of the AAW Tartar you could have a twin 3"50. My previous ship, a DLG had two twin 3"50's which later were replaced with Phalanx...you could do the same. You could keep the two triple ASW torpedo tubes, and in place of the ASROC (which I worked on) you could put in another twin 3"50 or maybe quad 40MM and keep the 5"38 forward. We had a space in the aft part of the ship that was suppose to hold a surface torpedo system that was never installed, this would be room enough for the helo crew and some marines.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

As others have said the primary requirement could be met by an aviso or a corvette vessel.

Think 2,000 tonns with a 76 mm Oto Melara mount, Exocet in quadpacks, side mounted torpedo launchers & Mistral / Croatle SAMs.

Have two RHIBs and provision for 50 cals to be mounted on pintel mounts.

Landing deck on the stern, which can then be converted into a hangar during a MLU.

You could embark an infantry platoon at a stretch, but you would not have the lift capability to conduct true amphibious operations.

 

[Khanzeer]

What sort of budget, manpower and nation are you?

Who are your suppliers/allies?

What on the above list is needed and what is nice to have?

New or second hand?

Consider a budget like Greece, Pakistan or algeria

Suppliers are Soviet union

Littoral ship target nation are a broad range of countries
Needed as a must

ASUW against other smaller enemy vessels of similar slightly larger size

Small troop carrying capacity 100 or so without vehicles

A recon helo

Some AAW defence like point defense SAM

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Consider a budget like Greece, Pakistan or algeria

Suppliers are Soviet union

Littoral ship target nation are a broad range of countries
Needed as a must

ASUW against other smaller enemy vessels of similar slightly larger size

Small troop carrying capacity 100 or so without vehicles

A recon helo

Some AAW defence like point defense SAM

The mission requirements that you list require a multi ship solution, i.e. purchasing a LCH and a Corvette.

Given your requirements I think that you are after an evolution of an actual ship class, which could range from a modified Nanuchka class (smaller) to a Grisha class (larger).

Both would require a change to the weapons fitout and might be aviation capable, i.e. a helicopter could conduct a VERTREP with the ship & even conduct Helicopter in flight refuelling.

But would not be large enough to safely recover and operate a helicopter from the platform, unless you are looking at a very small aircraft.

 

[Khanzeer]

If we drop the troop carrying and helo requirement, can we turn a petya , Grisha or mirka into a Corvette suitable for coastal operations but much more AAW ASUW and minimal ASW ?

 

[La Rouge Beret]

The primary threat (Air / Surface / Subsurface) will drive the proposed ship's weapons fitout and bear in mind that a corvette is a really small platform.

Which means that due to space you are going to be limited with your sensor mix (unless operating in conjunction with a larger Navy - then we are talking about communication & system interoperability) and the weapons magazines. My take is that you could have a reasonable ASuW capability, an okay / limited AAW capability and a limited ASW capability. Unless you went with a split build of four ships (2 primary ASuW / AAW & 2 ASuW / ASW) built from a common hull.

Is this for a Timeline?

 

[jsb]

Littoral ship target nation are a broad range of countries
Needed as a must

ASUW against other smaller enemy vessels of similar slightly larger size

Small troop carrying capacity 100 or so without vehicles

A recon helo

Some AAW defence like point defense SAM

On a small/cheap ship you cant fit everything, you can probably only have one (maybe two at a push on a cramped export design) of,
- Fast with powerful armament (working under local area base control, ASW/FAC types)
- Ability to work at range offshore with any level of sensors and weapons (classic corvette will lose to any blue water navy)
- Troops and or helicopters (LST type slow with light AA/SAMs)

 

[Riain]

I think a good guide are the patrol frigates Britain built before the 1957 defence white paper. The likes of the Type 81 GP Frigate, or even the 41 and 61 might fit the bill.

Missiles were pretty rare beasts in the 60s, even Brazil built 2 destroyers with guns in the 70s.

 

[Dorknought]

Minimum viable product.

 

[Not James Stockdale]

The king of littoral warfare is the fighter-bomber. No "cheap" ship is going to be able to out-range a guided bomb, much less an anti-ship missile. You'll still have point defenses, but target multiplication is going to overwhem you very quickly. Using corvettes under an AA umbrella for littoral ASW doesn't really make sense because helicopters are better at it and don't put an entire ship and its crew at risk. In the 1980s, the US Navy did not consider Perry-class frigates to be frontline combatants, and the modern littoral environment is going to be far hotter than the Norwegian Sea could have been.

If you're going into your littoral, shore-based aircraft and missiles are going to be dominant. If you're a rich country going into someone else's littoral, that's what aircraft carriers are for. If you're a poor country going into someone else's littoral, you don't have a prayer.

 

[Khanzeer]

The primary threat (Air / Surface / Subsurface) will drive the proposed ship's weapons fitout and bear in mind that a corvette is a really small platform.

Which means that due to space you are going to be limited with your sensor mix (unless operating in conjunction with a larger Navy - then we are talking about communication & system interoperability) and the weapons magazines. My take is that you could have a reasonable ASuW capability, an okay / limited AAW capability and a limited ASW capability. Unless you went with a split build of four ships (2 primary ASuW / AAW & 2 ASuW / ASW) built from a common hull.

Is this for a Timeline?

the scenario I WAS thinking of was to make frigates like Grisha/Petya/Mirka more multi-role and successful in the export market
Since ASW is not a major concern for most smaller navies , I was thinking replacing the RBU with maybe with SA-N-4
will the ASW TT be replaced by ASUW torpedoes or can we fit 4 x P-15 termits on these hulls ?
The 4 x 76mm can be replaced by dual 100mm ?

 

[Khanzeer]

The king of littoral warfare is the fighter-bomber. No "cheap" ship is going to be able to out-range a guided bomb, much less an anti-ship missile. You'll still have point defenses, but target multiplication is going to overwhem you very quickly. Using corvettes under an AA umbrella for littoral ASW doesn't really make sense because helicopters are better at it and don't put an entire ship and its crew at risk. In the 1980s, the US Navy did not consider Perry-class frigates to be frontline combatants, and the modern littoral environment is going to be far hotter than the Norwegian Sea could have been.

If you're going into your littoral, shore-based aircraft and missiles are going to be dominant. If you're a rich country going into someone else's littoral, that's what aircraft carriers are for. If you're a poor country going into someone else's littoral, you don't have a prayer.

Can fighter bombers in the 65-85 period overwhelm the defences of a typical FF/DDG of that period ?
e.g take a Hatsuyuki class destroyer with 1 x CIWS and 1 -2 sea sparrow launchers
attacked by 6-7 fighter-bombers like Su-17/Mig-23BN do the aircraft have a chance to land a couple of hits on the DDG if they are using PGMs/LGB