Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

Mr. Bubbles · Jun 8, 2019

British Union of Fascists leader Oswald Mosely promoted a concept called Europe a Nation, which was pretty different from typical ideas of fascism from the time. Rather than pure British Nationalism, Mosely proposed that all of Europe join together as a single united entity that could compete with the United States and the Soviet Union. This was, of course, an authoritarian, corporatist, elitist, and racist union. Under this union, all of Africa would become a massive resource pool and Apartheid-style segregation would be applied everywhere. Europe's Jews were also to be expelled, although Mosely was in favor of sending them to Palestine and letting them do whatever they wanted from there.

xmoose · Jun 9, 2019

Mhm, "arab" North Africa, especially Egypt, in, while Arabia and Fertile Crescent left out... wonder how that would work...

Mr. Bubbles · Jun 10, 2019

xmoose said:
Mhm, "arab" North Africa, especially Egypt, in, while Arabia and Fertile Crescent left out... wonder how that would work...

Not well, I imagine. Not that that's stopped European colonization before.

Vuu · Jun 11, 2019

xmoose said:
Mhm, "arab" North Africa, especially Egypt, in, while Arabia and Fertile Crescent left out... wonder how that would work...

Well those are left for the Jews to do their miniature copy of such a state, of course

CalBear · Jun 11, 2019

Vuu said:
Well those are left for the Jews to do their miniature copy of such a state, of course

I guess it is a lot more difficult than I realize to post without coming up with something racist/ethnic to take a swipe at.

Clear the previous four actions, all variants on the same general thing have been ineffective.

FIFTH racial/ethnic troll in under 13 months.

We divorce you.

To Coventry with you.

Mr. Bubbles · Jun 11, 2019

The Azores have had a history of pro-U.S. breakaway factions throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, due to feeling unfairly treated by Portugal. This was fueled by a large number of immigrants to the U.S., especially in and around New England. Economic ties also formed due to the presence of American whaling companies who operated in the islands and employed many of the residents. The pro-U.S. movement reached its height in 1917 when the American navy established a base there. Many of the Azorians, feeling that America was doing more to defend them from German raids than Portugal was, called for a complete transition to American control. However, many major politicians and naval officers in America, including then-Assistant Secretary to the Navy Franklin Roosevelt, dismissed the idea.

The movement lost steam after World War I, but it still existed even during and after World War II. During the Cold War, there were suggestions that, should the crumbling Portuguese Empire fall to a communist takeover, the U.S. should indeed take control of the Azores.

TheKutKu · Jun 12, 2019

Mr. Bubbles said:
View attachment 465035
The Azores have had a history of pro-U.S. breakaway factions throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, due to feeling unfairly treated by Portugal. This was fueled by a large number of immigrants to the U.S., especially in and around New England. Economic ties also formed due to the presence of American whaling companies who operated in the islands and employed many of the residents. The pro-U.S. movement reached its height in 1917 when the American navy established a base there. Many of the Azorians, feeling that America was doing more to defend them from German raids than Portugal was, called for a complete transition to American control. However, many major politicians and naval officers in America, including then-Assistant Secretary to the Navy Franklin Roosevelt, dismissed the idea.

The movement lost steam after World War I, but it still existed even during and after World War II. During the Cold War, there were suggestions that, should the crumbling Portuguese Empire fall to a communist takeover, the U.S. should indeed take control of the Azores.

I doubt it would be admitted as a state until the 21st century. The Azoreans will also not particularly like the thousands of soldiers permanently stationed there, Iceland-style.

Also if the US takes control of it after a communist takeover of Mainland portugal they'll likely put a republican government in exile there instead of annexing it or occupying it long term.

Faeelin · Jun 12, 2019

Mr. Bubbles said:
View attachment 464471
British Union of Fascists leader Oswald Mosely promoted a concept called Europe a Nation, which was pretty different from typical ideas of fascism from the time. Rather than pure British Nationalism, Mosely proposed that all of Europe join together as a single united entity that could compete with the United States and the Soviet Union. This was, of course, an authoritarian, corporatist, elitist, and racist union. Under this union, all of Africa would become a massive resource pool and Apartheid-style segregation would be applied everywhere. Europe's Jews were also to be expelled, although Mosely was in favor of sending them to Palestine and letting them do whatever they wanted from there.

Huh, didn't know about his views of AFrica.

TheKutKu · Jun 12, 2019

Mr. Bubbles said:
View attachment 464471
British Union of Fascists leader Oswald Mosely promoted a concept called Europe a Nation, which was pretty different from typical ideas of fascism from the time. Rather than pure British Nationalism, Mosely proposed that all of Europe join together as a single united entity that could compete with the United States and the Soviet Union. This was, of course, an authoritarian, corporatist, elitist, and racist union. Under this union, all of Africa would become a massive resource pool and Apartheid-style segregation would be applied everywhere. Europe's Jews were also to be expelled, although Mosely was in favor of sending them to Palestine and letting them do whatever they wanted from there.

This makes me really glad the U.K. and France didn’t succumb to extremist and genocidal ideologies in the 20th century, they could really have made even more atrocities in their colonies, i’m Also glad they didn’t try to keep most of their empire by force (well, in the case of franve except Algeria and Djibouti...) had they decolonized even 15 years later like Portugal did, in the context of deadly colonial war large parts of Africa would have been significantly worse off

Dante · Jun 12, 2019

Mr. Bubbles said:
View attachment 465035
The Azores have had a history of pro-U.S. breakaway factions throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, due to feeling unfairly treated by Portugal. This was fueled by a large number of immigrants to the U.S., especially in and around New England. Economic ties also formed due to the presence of American whaling companies who operated in the islands and employed many of the residents. The pro-U.S. movement reached its height in 1917 when the American navy established a base there. Many of the Azorians, feeling that America was doing more to defend them from German raids than Portugal was, called for a complete transition to American control. However, many major politicians and naval officers in America, including then-Assistant Secretary to the Navy Franklin Roosevelt, dismissed the idea.

The movement lost steam after World War I, but it still existed even during and after World War II. During the Cold War, there were suggestions that, should the crumbling Portuguese Empire fall to a communist takeover, the U.S. should indeed take control of the Azores.

War Plan Gray was the name of the plan to capture The Azores, in preparation for the possibility that the Germans might attack the Iberian Peninsula. If we did "conquer" them after WWII I'm sure we'd return them to the Portuguese after the war anyway.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/war-plan-gray.htm

Mr. Bubbles · Jun 12, 2019

TheKutKu said:
This makes me really glad the U.K. and France didn’t succumb to extremist and genocidal ideologies in the 20th century, they could really have made even more atrocities in their colonies, i’m Also glad they didn’t try to keep most of their empire by force (well, in the case of franve except Algeria and Djibouti...) had they decolonized even 15 years later like Portugal did, in the context of deadly colonial war large parts of Africa would have been significantly worse off

While the UK and France were hardly innocent of atrocities, I'm also glad they never went to the lengths of violence, insanity, and absolute dedication to racial supremacy that the Nazis and Imperial Japanese did. And as messy as it could be, decolonization was indeed the right call. A Colonial War across all of Africa is just plain horrifying to think about.

Drex · Jun 13, 2019

Here's a list of all proposals as for now (or I hope so). As it is a long list, I'd rather put it inside one of those spoiler boxes. I only took maps here, and they moreless follow historical order.

Pre-1800

1800-1900

1900-1939

1939-Today

Christory · Jun 13, 2019

Drex said:
Here's a list of all proposals as for now (or I hope so). As it is a long list, I'd rather put it inside one of those spoiler boxes. I only took maps here, and they moreless follow historical order.

Oh wow, that's cool. Must've taken ages to put that all together.

Personally I'd organize them by format (Worlda, QBAM etc) or by smaller chunks of time but I am certainly not complaining.

Mr. Bubbles · Jun 17, 2019

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After the end of World War II, Austria laid claim to the Italian province of South Tyrol, which was historically part of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire and retained a large population of ethnic Germans. This especially in light of Mussolini's attempt at fully Italianizing the region, which saw most German-Speaking South Tyroleans exiled to Nazi Germany, though most returned after the war. There were hopes that the end of the war would help guarantee that Austria and South Tyrol could be reunited, but the allies were worried that taking too much land from Italy (much of which had already been given to Yugoslavia, France, and the new Free Territory of Trieste) would increase the popularity of the communist party in the country. As such, the allies didn't agree to an immediate turnover nor a referendum, though the promise was made that Italy would grant the region greater self-governance.

While these were put in place, dissatisfaction with their situation and the influx of ethnic Italians lead many in South Tyrol to start a separatist movement by whatever means necessary. Befreiungsausschuss Südtirol (The Committee for the Liberation of South Tyrol) or BAS began a series of bombing campaigns in the 1950's, initially only targeting relics of the fascist government and trying to avoid loss of life. However, things changed after June 12th, 1961- the Night of Fire- when the BAS blew up 37 pylons in an attempt to knock out power for the Bolzano industrial zone. Their goal was to bring South Tyrolean independence to global attention, which it did, but also resulted in many members being arrested and military and police presence in South Tyrol increasing.

This was what began the more violent phase of the separatist movement, which was unfortunately exacerbated by German and Austrian neo-nazis who infiltrated the BAS. Assassinations and ambushes were made throughout the 1960's, the most infamous of which were the Cima Vallona attacks on June 25, 1967. In all, the BAS terror campaign cost 21 lives, including 15 members of Italian security forces, two civilians, and four of their own members. They also did more to harm South Tyrol's chances for independence than anything. The question of self-determination vs. independence was discussed by the United Nations in 1961, but the terrorist attacks ultimately ensured it would be unsuccessful. The issue was finally settled in 1971 with a new Austro-Italian treaty that guaranteed a greater form of self-governance as an autonomous province, with the additional promise that Austria would not meddle in South Tyrol's affairs. This was deemed satisfactory by many and the BAS ultimately faded away.

Austria relinquished its claim to South Tyrol in 1992.

edgeworthy · Jun 17, 2019

The South Tyrol is basically German, the signs are in German, the Newspapers are in German, the people speak German!
Why it is part of Italy is understandably confusing?

Limabot · Jun 17, 2019

edgeworthy said:
The South Tyrol is basically German, the signs are in German, the Newspapers are in German, the people speak German!
Why it is part of Italy is understandably confusing?

It's because of the First World War and the fact that there is a notable Italian minority that lives there.

Analytical Engine · Jun 17, 2019

Limabot said:
It's because of the First World War and the fact that there is a notable Italian minority that lives there.

South Tyrol has better defensive terrain than Trentino, IIRC.

Albidoom · Jun 19, 2019

Not quite a proposal, just a Vodka ad (which got cancelled)

Umbric Man · Jun 19, 2019

I remember thinking this was that weird ad where both sides were right. I mean, on the one hand, honestly, who likes seeing their country cut up? Come on, be honest. OTOH it was also an uproar that went way bigger than it ever ought have.

Also it annoys me Mexico managed to snag chunks of Oregon, Idaho, and Wyoming it never held during Spanish or independent times in this map, so at least be accurate in your attempts to cause historical controversy.

Analytical Engine · Jun 19, 2019

Umbric Man said:
I remember thinking this was that weird ad where both sides were right. I mean, on the one hand, honestly, who likes seeing their country cut up? Come on, be honest. OTOH it was also an uproar that went way bigger than it ever ought have.

Also it annoys me Mexico managed to snag chunks of Oregon, Idaho, and Wyoming it never held during Spanish or independent times in this map, so at least be accurate in your attempts to cause historical controversy.

Spain claimed land all the way up to Alaska, though.