AHC: Make WWI or WWII include even more countries than they did in OTL
- Thread starter Aloha May
- Start date
Is there a way to get a fascist regime in Sweden that joins the Axis to try to regain Norway and Finland?
Spain might shorten the war to the point that far fewer countries would have been in it. The defeat of the first German advance was close and even sending a Spanish cadet troop across the border could critically distract France.
Just have the allies bait Sweden enough in 1943 and you will see Swedish Socialdemocrats joining the allies on June 7 1944 invading Norway. I am sure the west would love the port of Narvik and send troops there by regular transports.
German advance into France keeps going into Spain with the aim of taking Gibraltar and closing the Med - the windpipe of the Empire. Spain resists and Portugal calls on British assistance in the Peninsula and invokes the Anglo Portuguese alliance.
WW1 could easily have been nominally bloated by having more Latin American countries join the Entente after 1917. Would not really Change the game much.
WW1:
- Admiral Nikolai Von Essen succesfully torpedoes some Swedish ships and Sweden declares war. In other hand it might be possible that Italy and United States remain neutral.
- Mexico decides take Zimmermann's offer and attack to United States. But you probably need insane Mexican government and more stable Mexico.
- Spain gets Hohenzollern king and it joins to Central Powers.
- The Netherlands joins to Central Powers or then Germany decides follow original Schlieffen Plan and sends troops through Dutch Limburg and the country declares war.
- In some reason Central Powers invade Switzerland.
WW2:
- Germany occupies Sweden or Sweden joins to Axis as co-belligiment and declares war to USSR.
- Hitler gets madness seizure and invades Switzerland.
- Admiral Nikolai Von Essen succesfully torpedoes some Swedish ships and Sweden declares war. In other hand it might be possible that Italy and United States remain neutral.
- Mexico decides take Zimmermann's offer and attack to United States. But you probably need insane Mexican government and more stable Mexico.
- Spain gets Hohenzollern king and it joins to Central Powers.
- The Netherlands joins to Central Powers or then Germany decides follow original Schlieffen Plan and sends troops through Dutch Limburg and the country declares war.
- In some reason Central Powers invade Switzerland.
WW2:
- Germany occupies Sweden or Sweden joins to Axis as co-belligiment and declares war to USSR.
- Hitler gets madness seizure and invades Switzerland.
I'll leave WWI aside, but WWII is very easy to expand to the few countries that remained neutral to the end.
Yemen is easy. The British make them understand the advantages of joining the UN in 1945, or else. It's a nominal contribution in the last two months of war, but no more than that of some of the South American countries.
Portugal is relatively easy. The Axis had a full casus belli against it. Hitler comes to know, in the wrong moment, that Allied aircraft taking off from a base on Portuguese soil have sunk yet another U-Boot, and in a fit of rage he declares war.
Ireland is somewhat difficult. The British could strong-arm them any day, but chose not to; they were already getting what they wanted. Maybe if the Luftwaffe launches a big raid against N. Ireland, but flattens much of Dublin because of a navigation mistake, and the British do decide to exploit that to push the Irish down the fence.
Afghanistan is difficult because it had little to offer to any side; the British, if joining forces with the Soviets, could pressure it, of course, but both sides feared the other would prevail there and remembered the Central Asian Great Game. However, Afghanistan made significant overtures to the Axis initially. If they exaggerate, if Germany makes some extravagant promise equivalent to Zimmerman's in WWI, and the British read it... Afghanistan may end up in the same boat as Iran.
Sweden is difficult, but doable if you accept early butterflies. Remember the Anglo-French expedition to Norway - it had, among its murky objectives, the relief of the Finns against the Soviets. That did not work out due to the timings, but note that, almost as an afterthought, the expedition would have crossed into Sweden in the vicinity of those interesting iron mines that were supplying Germany. Change the timing a bit and you could end with a real mess up there, and Sweden feeling forced to actively side with Germany.
Spain - I don't think so. Too clever, that Franco.
Switzerland - never. Too useful as a neutral clearing house for money, industrial property, diplomacy and espionage.
Yemen is easy. The British make them understand the advantages of joining the UN in 1945, or else. It's a nominal contribution in the last two months of war, but no more than that of some of the South American countries.
Portugal is relatively easy. The Axis had a full casus belli against it. Hitler comes to know, in the wrong moment, that Allied aircraft taking off from a base on Portuguese soil have sunk yet another U-Boot, and in a fit of rage he declares war.
Ireland is somewhat difficult. The British could strong-arm them any day, but chose not to; they were already getting what they wanted. Maybe if the Luftwaffe launches a big raid against N. Ireland, but flattens much of Dublin because of a navigation mistake, and the British do decide to exploit that to push the Irish down the fence.
Afghanistan is difficult because it had little to offer to any side; the British, if joining forces with the Soviets, could pressure it, of course, but both sides feared the other would prevail there and remembered the Central Asian Great Game. However, Afghanistan made significant overtures to the Axis initially. If they exaggerate, if Germany makes some extravagant promise equivalent to Zimmerman's in WWI, and the British read it... Afghanistan may end up in the same boat as Iran.
Sweden is difficult, but doable if you accept early butterflies. Remember the Anglo-French expedition to Norway - it had, among its murky objectives, the relief of the Finns against the Soviets. That did not work out due to the timings, but note that, almost as an afterthought, the expedition would have crossed into Sweden in the vicinity of those interesting iron mines that were supplying Germany. Change the timing a bit and you could end with a real mess up there, and Sweden feeling forced to actively side with Germany.
Spain - I don't think so. Too clever, that Franco.
Switzerland - never. Too useful as a neutral clearing house for money, industrial property, diplomacy and espionage.
You could have Dev and the Cabinet accepting the Chamberlain offer in 1940 after Dunkirk though it's highly unlikely they would, maybe a different German Ambassador who wouldn't work so much to try and restrain Berlin's view on Irish actions.
A Spanish front in the terrain that borders France with trenches would certainly lead to a huge loss of life. I dont think that it needs a Hohenzollern in a throne just the right political cicumstances. For example authotorian Alphonse XIII. tries to be a Leader in wartime and hopes to gain Something die joining the Centrals. Maybe colonial gains etc. On the other hand French might invaders Spanish colonial holdings. Another Thing could be a mass revolt of Spanish troops with a Civil War breakung out. Maybe Anarchist and Bolshevik elements see their chance. Also the Rif Kabyles might rebel, for the Spanish are distracted. Portugal ist a problem , too. In the Entente camp ist would be an enemy of Spain and another Front ist opened. British troops certainly laand in Spain to assist Portugal.
thaddeus
Donor
Spain and Portugal are useful for what? closing the Med and tungsten? (with the historical condition of Spain, obviously a quick Nationalist coup in 1936 would change their value as an ally)
as you stated, IF Sweden could be brought into Axis, might tip the balance around Leningrad and Murmansk?
my view Switzerland an interesting gamble, they had tangible gold equal to all the loot they captured historically ... from everyone else. and that doesn't count the untold treasures they held for private entities.
How useful would it be to get Spain on the Allied side in WW2?
Is it viable to use it as the staging ground to invade France?
Is it viable to use it as the staging ground to invade France?
thaddeus
Donor
they did not need Spanish bases to conduct bombings and it would be nearly impossible to advance overland into France. believe if they calculated they could not land directly in France, from the UK, then other targets, such as Norway, would be selected, rather than another staging area.
the only scenario they land in Spain is if they had joined the Axis, even then it seems a question mark.
Maybe a Danish front but it needs a believable Pod. Maybe a German Invasion and Allied troops landing in Juteland assisting the Danish army. Stalemate and trench warfare at the 1864 border.
BigBlueBox
Banned
If the Spanish-American war was butterflied away it might mean America joins immediately by declaring war on Spain - a bigger boost for the Entente than Spain is for the CP.
Note I introduced the notion of "useful" - as a neutral - to explain why I don't think Switzerland would get involved. And useful to both sides for what it did.
That is different from being useful as a combatant, and presumably for one side only.
And that's why the Nazi leadership, at least, if not other leaderships too, wouldn't want their own bank be assaulted, not even by their own state. A further reason, in addition to those already mentioned, to leave Switzerland in peace.
thaddeus
Donor
you are certainly 99.9% accurate. my speculation (which was not elaborated on) would be dependent on securing another "clearing house" (which could be reinstalling Vichy regime back in Paris or a neutral Italy) and/or NOT invading USSR, preferably both.
all during the 1920's and up to 1933, the two pariah states of Germany and USSR were able to barter and if they did not invade the USSR they could resume their barter arrangements with China?
(this is a riff on NY Times article appearing before the invasion of France, speculating next German move on Romania, Sweden, or Switzerland. and also continued exploitation of their arrangement with USSR.)
Kaze
Banned
Ireland.
There was movement in Ireland with the IRA or whatever they were calling themselves at the time to involve themselves in both World War One and World War Two - mostly as a pro-German set up. The Easter Rising of 1916 was an example of this - where in the British moved in quickly crushed it and made sure it would not divert troops. But in a different timeline, you could see a Ireland vs British front in World War One. There was some suggestions among the British intelligence that the Germans might do it again in World War Two and convinced the would be rebels that it would be in their best interest not to involve themselves. In a different timeline, the negotiations fail and Ireland becomes a major submarine port for the Nazis and a possible launching pad for the "unfortunate sea mammal disaster".
India.
There was movement among the Indians to have an rebellion, mutiny, etc - resulting in partial or total independence for India in World War One and Two, German intelligence encouraged such actions. In a different timeline - the whole of India could have become Central Powers and Nazis instead of what happened IRL.
Brittany.
There was movement among some for independence during World War One and Two - both was quickly hushed by patriotism against the common German Foe using memories of the excesses of the Franco-Prussian to make sure the Britons kept to themselves. A different timeline could see a trench-line along the Brittany / France border and Naval blockade by the British in world war one. A different timeline could have the Britons act - pushing the Normandy invasion into the sea.
There was movement in Ireland with the IRA or whatever they were calling themselves at the time to involve themselves in both World War One and World War Two - mostly as a pro-German set up. The Easter Rising of 1916 was an example of this - where in the British moved in quickly crushed it and made sure it would not divert troops. But in a different timeline, you could see a Ireland vs British front in World War One. There was some suggestions among the British intelligence that the Germans might do it again in World War Two and convinced the would be rebels that it would be in their best interest not to involve themselves. In a different timeline, the negotiations fail and Ireland becomes a major submarine port for the Nazis and a possible launching pad for the "unfortunate sea mammal disaster".
India.
There was movement among the Indians to have an rebellion, mutiny, etc - resulting in partial or total independence for India in World War One and Two, German intelligence encouraged such actions. In a different timeline - the whole of India could have become Central Powers and Nazis instead of what happened IRL.
Brittany.
There was movement among some for independence during World War One and Two - both was quickly hushed by patriotism against the common German Foe using memories of the excesses of the Franco-Prussian to make sure the Britons kept to themselves. A different timeline could see a trench-line along the Brittany / France border and Naval blockade by the British in world war one. A different timeline could have the Britons act - pushing the Normandy invasion into the sea.
nbcman
Donor
WW1
US declares war on Mexico due to Zimmermann Telegram.
Germany goes full Schlieffen plan and cuts across the southern end of the Netherlands.
Due to German subs sinking of many of their flagged vessels, Norway declares war on Germany.
In WW2
The Soviets could decide to attack Sweden due to their 'volunteers' during the Winter War as well as their permitting German troops to be railed across their country.
Germany decides due to their protests against their policies to occupy Vatican City.
Vichy France declares war in response to Operation Catapult or Operation Menace.
US declares war on Mexico due to Zimmermann Telegram.
Germany goes full Schlieffen plan and cuts across the southern end of the Netherlands.
Due to German subs sinking of many of their flagged vessels, Norway declares war on Germany.
In WW2
The Soviets could decide to attack Sweden due to their 'volunteers' during the Winter War as well as their permitting German troops to be railed across their country.
Germany decides due to their protests against their policies to occupy Vatican City.
Vichy France declares war in response to Operation Catapult or Operation Menace.
Then Germany will send a few divisions to the North of Sweden since Sweden had few modern weapons.