Not Easily Conquered

Part I-The American Dream

You know I have thought about doing a list of the Presidents of the United States for a while now. Since the 2020 election is just around the corner I thought that we should take a look at the 33 presidents that we've had so far. Sure people know the big ones: Washington, Hamilton, Tompkins, and Trudeau. They know that Jackson was a loon, Crichton was killed by chance and that Quinn was killed on purpose. I'm a history major and I didn't realize that Beaumont Randall was a real person.

Still a lot of the history of this nation, from sea to sea to sea, is that we have endured. From the beginning of this nation to now, we have created that shining city on a hill for all to see. So together we will look at how America, and her Presidents, has changed since her founding. In order to do this we have to go back to the beginning.

The War for Independence is over. The new nation of the United States set about integrating all of that territory. This includes the former British territory of Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and what would become the State of Ontario. But the Articles of Confederation just were not working. So a new convention was called for a new constitution. At the end of it, things were set for the first Presidential election.

There is some context you need to know:

First, the presidents, especially for most of this country’s history are often quite bigoted against, well, everybody who isn’t a straight white man of some privilege.

Second, the political spectrum back then is not like today. The Liberty Party tends to trace its origins to the more Liberal parts of various parties of the time like the Federalists and the Democratic-Republicans. The new Reform Party and the former Conservative Party tends to lean towards the more Elitist parts of those parties.

Finally, please keep things civil in the comments section. I don’t want this to turn into what happened when I discussed The War for American Independence.

With this in mind, let’s set the scene: it’s 1789. The war is over, the Articles of Confederation didn’t hold and a new constitution was written. Now it’s time to choose the first President.
 
The War for Independence is over. The new nation of the United States set about integrating all of that territory. This includes the former British territory of Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and what would become the State of Ontario. But the Articles of Confederation just were not working. So a new convention was called for a new constitution. At the end of it, things were set for the first Presidential election.

The implication is that the British are expelled from North America completely--from the continent that is, there is no hint the offshore islands of Bermuda and the Bahamas are lost to Britain, it would be most unlikely for the states in rebellion to manage that and if they had, I imagine they'd be mentioned here.

A nitpicker could point out that other footholds on North American continental ground remain or could be developed in countermeasure:

1) "Prince Rupert Land" is the claim to lands beyond the colonial territories claimed by seizure from the French in the "French and Indian War" as we called that theatre of the more global war ending in 1763, north of New France. Access to it was not I gather typically overland from the St Lawrence but rather by sailing directly to Hudson's Bay; PRL is essentially the domain of the Hudson Bay Company. Leaving this vast but not too hospitable territory out of the above list could be a reference to Britain managing to hold on to it in the treaty, with boundaries suitably adjusted.

2) Britain had also gotten ahold of "Florida" from Spain, and held it on paper and with some settlement in practice up to the ARW period. The boundaries were different, especially in the west--it was formally two territories, East Florida that IIRC was separated at the Apalachicola River from West Florida, whose boundaries were claimed considerably to the north of the current line separating the western state of Florida panhandle from Alabama, and reached far west of the current boundary separating Pensacola from Alabama's outlet onto the Gulf of Mexico at Mobile, as far as the Mississippi and thus including the coastal reaches of both Alabama and Mississippi and southeastern Louisiana. The western colony inherited less development. West of that, Spain was granted control of former New French claims west of the Mississippi including New Orleans and eventually developing Saint Louis as the Spanish center of power to provide what limited actual control of the claim border, made continuous with New Spain, the Spanish actually exercised there.

The outcome of the OTL Revolutionary War was for the British to return both Floridas to Spain, I suppose because the Americans insisted no second concentration of British force beyond their already threatening OTL retentions of what would become eastern Canada to the north; giving it back to Spain was an acceptable compromise, the Yankees being unable to press a direct claim on it themselves. North of the line considerably to the north of the current western state of Florida border which marked the former British West Florida northern limits of that claim, the USA got everything between the Mississippi and the Atlantic south of the Great Lakes and the southern boundary of ultimately Canadian claims. It did not take long, just a few decades, for various Yankee filibustering efforts to chip away at Spain's West Florida claims, to the point the Spanish reintegrated the remnant between Pensacola and Tallahassee back into East Florida, and eventually of course that too went the way of the western Florida Spanish claims...a combination of wildcat Yankee settlements purporting to found rouge republics, and the threat of US flagged forces sometimes invading purportedly to hunt down fugitive slaves, was an expensive and potentially humiliating gun to Spanish heads, which could go off in the form of formal war, invasion and conquest, not necessarily in that order, so that with such bad cops as Andrew Jackson lurking in the wings, slave-catching armies at the ready, the "good cops" of official envoys from Washington DC offering cash money for the honorable purchase of Florida looked sweeter, as well as an "offer you can't refuse" in the Corleone sense. But I suppose in the short run when the Treaty of Paris was negotiated, Spain did not look that weak and marginal to the British, especially in view of the fact that British North America remained a big gun pointed at Yankee heads, reinforced by Native American interests in checking the explosive potential of the expansionist former colonies.

Thus in principle, the fledgling USA, under wartime Articles of Confederation, could in principle make a clean sweep of OTL Canada to the north, but fail to secure Florida in the south, and possession being 9 points of the law, the British could either retain it directly, perhaps with adjusted boundaries, or alternatively as OTL hand it off to some other allied power.

Or the USA negotiators might find themselves beholden to allies of their own; I have to figure such a sweeping success as the Americans have evidently won here must owe something to European allies, mainly to France. OTL the French got little out of their support of the USA, in the Americas anyway...but of course the Yankees were doing well to get New York city and Georgia back, British forces were in occupation of other swathes of US territory as in Virginia on the eve of the cease fire, and the attempts to secure Canadian (to be anachronistic but convenient in terminology) colonies were fiascos. If the Yankees are in fact riding higher in the ATL when the peace is finally signed, it might be impossible to refuse the French some pound of flesh or other somewhere on the American continent--of course the French crown might not be interested in this to be sure, perhaps regarding the evident fiasco the British ultimately must swallow as evidence North American continental holdings are a bad investment.

The one thing we know for sure so far about possible French claims for services rendered the USA is that they do not get Quebec back. Otherwise--it is possible on paper they might get "Florida" for a certain value of Florida, for surely the Yankees will want at least some of it for themselves if they can get it. Taking all of what the British called East Florida between the wars would secure the entire Atlantic coast, denying any foe a land base from which to attack on that shore, assuming it is not titanic overreach to try to secure it. But granting West Florida to France, if Spain is not a neutral and in a position to have costs imposed on her too, involving perhaps restoration of New Orleans, or even all the way up to St Louis and beyond west of the Mississippi.

The title of the thread though strongly implies the Yankees come out of the war in a sweepingly nigh-invulnerable position, so even if France does get a substantial set of North American territories--clearly all in the south if this happens at all--the USA is in a position of high self-satisfaction, and I don't think French possession would reach far up the river. Also granting them sweeping control of the entire Gulf Coast, even if restricted to West Florida only, is not something the Yankees would prefer.

Here's the scenario I am sketching out based on the slim evidence of one post so far:

1) the exact POD is up in the air, but it appears likely to be sometime after the outbreak of war between British authorities and the New England Colonies in 1775, and very likely to relate to the attempt to conquer Canada of OTL, being far more successful in this TL. OTL the colonies in rebellion, now "states," attempted to make a clean sweep of the colonies on the continent starting with fomenting and supporting uprisings in the Maritimes and the seizure of the named British colonies to the north of New England, which in the ATL might be considered part of a larger New England. To do this, the plan involved a major invasion force taking Montreal, as Wolfe had done (dying in the process) on behalf of Britain with largely colonial forces in the previous war. Presumably this particular scheme pays off, and either as a knock on or in parallel, the rising of colonists in New Brunswick, PEI and Nova Scotia also falls into line with the Continental scheme; this would have to rely on heavy local support, but I think that was somewhat forthcoming OTL and would be reinforced naturally by victory. However I would guess the British are well able to retain Halifax itself, due to heavy fortifications and a high priority on its retention being placed there, and its ability to be supplied and reinforced or evacuated by sea. Also, I would be surprised if the Yankees could take Newfoundland by simple conquest; the main population is on the island, and the Labrador mainland part is pretty peripheral and hard to hold without expensive expeditions. So British sea access is pretty well guaranteed I think and even sweeping success inland to the west still leaves the USA in rebellion with a heavy military distraction keeping Halifax besieged, and the British having the power to raid and land on the coasts pretty much at will. Securing Anglophone east Canada (as we know it today) would thus be militarily incomplete.

Quebec would require some finesse to hold. The OTL Declaration of Independence (which might be at least somewhat edited by butterflies here, or might be exactly as OTL) mentions the alleged tyranny of British power over Quebec, but mainly to stress it is an arm of force brought against the colonists. In fact the manner of British rule over the formerly New French Francophone Catholic there was I gather, accomplished pretty diplomatically, though perhaps with an alarming disregard to British colonial custom--alarming to the Anglo-Colonials on the Atlantic coast that is, to the former French subjects it would be little change. The British viceroys in fact took steps to avoid annoying them, and I gather the clerical power structure of the hegemonic Catholic hierarchy was much put at ease and might actually have found British rule preferable. Nor was there mass discontent among the peasant settlers on the Saint Lawrence. To the properly "quebecois" francophones then, the American invasion would indeed seem alien and potentially quite threatening to a perfectly acceptable status quo. Therefore the envoys of the Continental government would have to be quite astute and diplomatic in their turn merely to prevent the Quebecois from being an actively anti-Revolutionary force and sitting on them by force would be quite distracting in terms of tying down potentially fighting forces on occupation duty.

Being humanistic and optimistic about the best ideals of American revolutionary ideology, I personally hope the resolution involves a combination of short term visibly dominant local force, what with the cooperation of the Maritime colonists also in rebellion downstream, strong force in Quebec city, Montreal and other strategic points, and longer term persuasion of various factions, including some Anglophones, that the American republic is the future and they have an honored place in it if they join in. The Catholic hierarchy has something to fear to lose and little apparent to gain, but in fact while anti-"Papist" bigotry was a major thing among the Anglo-American colonists, there were OTL some Catholic signatories of both the Declaration and the Constitution at the Convention. Therefore I figure that in the right circumstances, having chosen suitably statesmanlike envoys with suitable authority over potentially bigoted Continental and expeditionary State forces to keep rein on them, the powers that be in Quebec are persuaded to form a State of their own, which is received in the Continental Congress as equal to any other. In fact Quebec elites are proficient enough in English to function as envoys of their state in the English speaking United States In Congress Assembled (if that terminology survives the POD) but there will be no question of imposing English only; Quebec's internal state business will be conducted in French primarily, though surely with extensive translation into English taken for granted. Of course any formerly British-American colonial with pretensions of high culture would be more or less proficient in French themselves, so even Congress might get notably bilingual. De facto, I suspect Quebec will be more theocratic than the Atlantic colonials like and a certain degree of anti-Catholic bigotry will remain a thing, but somewhat toned down versus OTL, and over time I expect democratic republicanism will assert itself against clerical pretensions of power and authority, both by persons radically opposed to Church authority and even the Church itself, and by persons professing seriously continued faith and fidelity nevertheless asserting also the secular separation of church and state even in Quebec.

The Constitution of OTL, which I suppose will be significantly butterflied here, does not in any way forbid individual states from establishing churches--what did that before the Civil War, with disestablishment universal before the 1830s were out, was political expediency. I believe the "equal protection" clause of the 14th Amendment would render modern establishments legally impossible nowadays, but any Constitutional barrier to it does not stem from the Bill of Rights directly--I do think that in the context of the Equal Protection clause, the prohibition on establishment placed on the Federal government is logically extended with the Bill of Right's moral authority to the states as well. Of course the ATL Constitution and its subsequent evolution is probably quite butterflied and subject to a great many variations! Demanding the Quebec establishments accept radical secularism as an imposed doctrine this early however would be undiplomatic and counterproductive--again I imagine Quebec coming into line with the range of US practice gradually over time. And the Catholic Church retaining pretty strong authority through legally informal means pretty much indefinitely, unless the population is swamped out by non-Catholic immigrants, which i do not foresee except in limited sections of its boundaries if that.

Parallel to the suggestion that Quebec be incorporated as a state with a distinct nature initially to accommodate its peculiarities versus a typical British North American settler colony, I also put in a brief plea the author consider the possibility that with the situation of Native American people being different than OTL with Yankee sweeping successes, rather than simply turning the screws of OTL tragic near-genocide somewhat tighter, that a possible reaction is that at least some Native peoples, seeing they cannot as OTL expect effective British aid against the onslaught of Yankee expansionism, instead of despairing and desperately fighting a hopeless cause, negotiate some kind of terms with the Patriots, even going so far as to risk fighting their own long term interest in actively aiding the Rebel cause in order to solidify meaningful support among some US people, and as a result first the self-selected few who come to these terms and eventually all surviving Native peoples, including those who initially fought against the USA but eventually surrendered, will have some sort of negotiated Constitutional status better than merely subjected alien peoples, but rather some recognized role in the Constitutional order that secures them some rights and some resources reserved to them, in return for their compliance.

I have a dear quaint hobbyhorse notion you see, of an Indian Confederation forming which legally unites disparate, multinational, discontiguous tracts of treaty granted territory under the formal banner of a state-equivalent nationwide body, in which the Native peoples collectively have equal representation proportional to total population of all their peoples combined in the House of Representatives, and two Senators in that house, and voting for President on the same basis as Anglo and other European descended citizens. Few Native peoples ever had a population as distinct nation-tribes comparable to a US state, even a very small one, you see. But integrated all together they would in fact have numbers to amount to a fair sized if not too large US state. Of course internally such an Indian Confederation would be nothing like a US state, not being an integrated and distinct territorial unit nor composed of a large majority of more or less culturally unified people, but rather a crazy quilt patchwork of tiny (in population, I envision tribal lands tending to span somewhat more territory, and better land, than OTL) reservations each autonomously ruled by quite distinct Native customs as evolved in their encounter with their conquerors. The Confederation would be a clearinghouse negotiating intertribal conflicts where these arise, and mainly mediating with state scale authority the relations of each tribe with whichever states they are embedded within or between. It would itself therefore require a federal structure internally. But being able to collectively bargain with the Federal regime I think would tend in the long run to negotiate a more reasonable settlement for each tribe and contribute to the collective dignity of all Native peoples. (They would be called "Indians" of course, and if this scheme were to evolve to work as advertised, the "Indian" label would have more dignity than OTL so that term would remain the standard way to politely and respectfully refer to North American Native peoples in the ATL). Legally speaking their status would evolve from foreign peoples who have separate treaties with the US federal government toward those treaties being amended en masse and subsequently to negotiate their incorporation as US citizens with special negotiated status but the same general rights and duties as other citizens broadly speaking--both their distinctiveness and their assimilation would be legally defined and enforced. In the long run I would expect somewhat higher overall "Indian" populations than we recognize now, both because of overall lower death rate, and because Native peoples in charge by basic treaty template of identifying who belongs in their distinct nations at their own discretion instead of Federal top down mandate will be more inclusive, and people who OTL either tried to keep their Native connections quiet or were completely ignorant of them would be more likely to embrace the identity, and be accepted by their respective peoples.

To return to the broader picture having entered this plea for consideration, or that might inspire some other approach toward a different, hopefully better outcome for Native people:

So--first of all, the major base on land, and connection to power projection against the USA via arming and organizing Native American resistance, of Britain OTL is short circuited out and denied, and to a limited extent manpower OTL in British hands also becomes available to the Continental cause. Against this a siege of Halifax probably needs to be kept up unbroken throughout the war.

The War I believe will be of considerably longer duration than the OTL war, which was already the most enduring war in terms of time span of any US war of OTL, unless one counts every phase of the US entanglement in Southeast Asia known as "the Vietnam War" or the ongoing occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan as of today. Which is telling--all are essentially the same kind of conflict, with the USA on the insurgent side in the 18th century OTL and on the imperialist side in the 20th and 21st century conflicts.

What is different here is that early success in "Canada" to again use a convenient anachronism will inflate Yankee ambition. I would think early and sweeping if not complete success would on the whole enhance US capability--mainly through tipping the balance of political calculation toward the secessionist "Patriot" side, lowering the percentage who remain deeply "Loyalist"/"Tory" and shifting people who OTL devoutly equivocated to avoid entanglement and being on the wrong, losing side as much as possible, toward the Patriots. Secondarily by largely though not entirely removing the threat of counter invasion from the north, permitting heavier concentration of total American potentials toward resisting descents on the coasts and toward the southern front, and to a quite limited extent by increasing the pool of available manpower with recruits from the Maritimes and Quebec. Against this, the British will be somewhat more enraged and determined, persons who OTL got away with openly defending American interests and denouncing British imperial ones in Britain, such as Edmund Burke, will be more quelled and either prudently keep their heads down or perhaps have them lopped off, or are otherwise legally clamped down on. The British will retain Newfoundland and Halifax and the Atlantic islands of Bermuda and the Bahamas as well as Caribbean holdings--perhaps in a long war with more resources, the US will develop some serious naval resources to challenge British control of the Atlantic islands, attempt interference with British shipping across the North Atlantic, and go raiding in the Caribbean and farther afield. But I would guess that this remains at serious disadvantage to RN power throughout and such attempts impose some costs but are not successful in terms of actual sustained conquest.

Nevertheless, such war aims as securing Florida, however defined, to deny a British foothold on the continent and round out US coastal defense, and demanding at the peace table the abandonment of all British and to the extent possible allied claims anywhere north or east of Mexico, including Prince Rupert Land and Newfoundland as well as surrendering Halifax, will come to be the American policy, and it is this extreme they hold out for that sustains the war perhaps twice as long as OTL.

From the quote of the OP I open with, I infer, perhaps wrongly, that in this TL, the end of the Revolutionary War and adoption of the new Constitution are telescoped together as they were not OTL. OTL, the Articles of Confederation were only briefly fully adopted by all US states in formal legal force before the new Constitution superseded them...but informally, the Articles, preceded by informal ad hoc measures leading to them, were de facto the government of the USA from before the Declaration right up to the Constitution being ratified. And this long period included not only the ARW years but a comparably long post-war period of nearly a decade, in which time the USA, nominally and legally at peace with the Treaty of Paris ratified by all sides, evolved some key features of government and administration carried over into the Constitution, notably Jefferson's Northwest Ordinances laying groundwork for how the USA would incorporate and govern Territories on a path to statehood (thus settling a lot of conflicting and otherwise unsatisfactory state claims to territory beyond the traditional state boundaries.

But here, I gather that the war goes on much longer due to the factors mentioned above, with the Articles regime, probably much modified versus OTL both by formally agreed to amendment and also by de facto practices not formally ratified, being shaken down into a more or less workable Federal government. One might suggest an outcome of that would be not to have a new Constitution with a clean sheet, but rather to simply extend a half-assed but working Articles frame into the indefinite future. But it is not implausible a new clean sheet Constitution would also emerge from the war years, with the matter of adopting it and even fleshing out much of its detailed nature accomplished diplomatically during the war but placed on hold by mutual agreement until that war is won, and then by prior agreement rapidly adopting it as the ink dries on the peace treaty.

The resulting Constitution might plausibly be closely parallel to our own, or might be radically different in some details or the entire structure. Above in sketching the "Indian Confederation" concept for Federal incorporation of native peoples simply assumed, for illustration's sake, exactly the OTL outcomes in terms of House of Representatives, a fixed uniform number of Senators for each state, and Presidential EV at state discretion via choosing a number of Electors equal to their total Congress representation all as OTL--but I hardly assume it will be exactly that way; quite a few curve balls, of subtle detail or gross structure, will probably come at us taking us on a different track.

Everything I have written here is a pretty personal extrapolation I have spun to try to match my own concepts of the nature of things in North America in these days with the limited sketch we have been given so far.

I look forward to the author revealing their own thinking.
 
It goes on until early 1784. Britain keeps Bermuda and their other Caribbean holdings (as for their other Mainland North American holdings you'll have to wait and see). Needless to say, this will be a semi-serious timeline.
 
1. George Washington

“The Father of his Country”


Presidency: March 4 1789-March 4 1797

Life: February 22, 1732-June 6, 1800

Home State: Virginia

Party: Independent

Vice President: John Jay (Independent/Federalist)

Opponents: 1788/89: Unopposed. 1792: Unopposed.

Who Was He?: Soldier, Statesman, the only one trusted to lead the country as her first President.

Early Life/Career: No formal schooling after 16, his elder brother Lawrence helped him get a surveyors’ license and he began surveying the frontier, which at the time was around the Appalachians. Lawrence died when Washington was 20 and he joined the military soon afterwards. After suffering under the snobbery of British military upper crust, and accidently starting the French and Indian War, he left. He got married to Martha Dandridge Custis and got into politics. It was during that the War of Independence broke out and Washington was called on to lead the Continental Army. Though the war was costly and nearly lost at several points, Washington pulled it off.

Ascension: Washington didn’t want to be president. He only accepted the position because Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson, in one of the few things they actually on, thought that it would tear the young nation apart to have a highly partisan election. So reluctantly, Washington put his name forward and the voters, then white men of property, selected the electors, this is when the Electoral College was around, elected George Washington President of the United States.

Presidency: It was actually fairly calm domestically, other than the screaming matches between Secretary of Foreign Affairs Thomas Jefferson and Secretary of Finance Alexander Hamilton. During his term, the Bill of Rights was ratified; the States of North Carolina, Rhode Island, Ontario, Quebec, Acadia, Cantucky and Franklin joined the Union. Washington also picked the sight of what is now Washington C.D. (or Capital District for my non-American readers).

Things He Can Brag About:

· Being the first president.

· Doing everything he did with little formal education.

· Selecting the location of Washington C.D.

· Being the only President to win 100% of the Electoral College. Twice.

· Being on the quarter, dollar bill and American Memorial Statue.

· Having several million things named after him.

· Being the largest whiskey distiller in Virginia.

Things He Hopes We Can Overlook:

· The fact that he owned slaves. Thought he was a mild advocate for abolition towards the end of his life the fact remains that he only freed them after he died.

Things He That Get On His Nerves:

· The fact that his mother didn’t really like him being involved in this revolution business.

· The fact that he lost most of his teeth and had a set of dentures made from teeth pulled from his slaves.

· The fact that despite wanting to have children of his own he never had any.

Other Things You Should Know About Him:

· He was a great dancer

· Gave the shortest Inaugural Speech ever at 193 words.

· He hated taking baths and like being filthy.

· Martha was 5’0” to his 6’3”.

· When he died, his estate was worth $1.5 million or around $19 million today.
 

Lusitania

Donor
@Lusitania i call upon you
Actually these TL get tiring because people do not take into consideration the ability of a US to actually invade and conquer Quebec and Nova Scotia (oh hold on they somehow raised a whole fleet and conquered Newfoundland). Then we forget the cultural, linguistic and religious disagreement and in many cases animosity. I do not understand the premise because it not possible and the author not provide any realistic possibility of this happening.

Now after a miraculous and Devine intervention war the people are going to forcibly incorporate Newfoundland and Quebec really. Americans are going to force the Quebec people to learn English I guess.

Sorry but this is not a realistic scenario just like the others before. If you want to know my reasons please read my previous multiple posts on this topics.

Hint even if Quebec joined the revolution there would not been a constitution but only articles for the Quebec would not of accepted it.

Take care
 
Well I never really meant for this timeline to be taken that seriously. Is it something of a cliché at this point? Yes, yes it is. But they are clichés for a reason.
 
@Lusitania:

The USA was not in the ARW completely alone; we had allies, mainly France. If we combine somewhat better success in the early invasion of Quebec and the Maritimes--in the latter at least some fair number of locals sympathized with the Patriot cause, so I certainly don't think it is crazy that they, barring Newfoundland of course, and granting Halifax might hold out all through the war being well fortified and supplied by sea, might go over to the US side and in the ATL, it would be more than 13 colonies counted as in the Revolution from the beginning--with France giving the British a harder run for their money in other distant theaters, the outcome could be the British agreeing to quit-claim all North American territories, even those they actually were in effective control of. After all OTL the British conquered what is today New York City, and held it all through the war, but gave it up as part of the peace agreement. If driven out of the Maritimes by force including a substantial share of their own domestic population joining the Rebels (so this loss looks, in the OTL, exactly like that of any other colony in our OTL 13) which would impede their communications with Quebec, and Quebec's own key points, notably Quebec city itself, were under Yankee occupation, why should they cavil at writing off the Francophone colony too? This just leaves Newfoundland outstanding, and Rupert's Land. Certainly the US forces were not capable of ousting British control of either by force. But if other victories the American rebels might have been capable of have deprived the Crown of the territories making the North American continent profitable, what, other than just hanging in there to give the Yankees headaches in the future perhaps, motivates keeping Newfoundland as well?

Rupert's Land is another story; the Hudson Bay Company made some investors in Britain good money, whereas the Yankees would have a hard time sustaining expeditions capable of making the land around the Bay too hot for the Company to profit. But even here, certainly, if not right away then in near future decades, a suitably irritated USA, recovered from Revolutionary War losses, having undergone some growth, and with no other British presences to distract and sap them, could in fact at least seize or destroy the major trading centers, and if we are to be blunt, commit genocide aimed at the HBC's Native American partners. Making it too hot to be profitable is not cheap or easy to do in the 1770s, but if the USA has consolidated Quebec into itself, then harassing HBC out of business is certainly possible, if perhaps an unnecessary flexing of muscle.

I think that if the US has in fact secured the more southerly Maritimes via indigenous Patriots, and secured a strong hold on key Quebec conquests, while also perhaps being stronger in the southern states to justify a Yankee claim on the Floridas too, then the Yankee war aim of driving Britain right off the continent, so they have no bases from which to attack the USA by land directly, might have enough momentum, especially in the context of French victories anywhere else in the world, to persuade the British to agree to make a clean sweep of evacuating the whole continent (well not in Central America, but the part of the continent the USA was directly worried about). Newfoundland by itself is not much of an additional concession, and while Rupert's Land is, if the American negotiators can soften the blow by for instance making agreements with HBC they can continue operations and even perhaps the USA can agree to remit some cash payment from the US tax proceeds on HBC business to fatten British profits from the operation in compensations, then the management of HBC will come around to advocating for agreeing to let them operate under Yankee supervision.

So while I think it is a long shot, I do think that the USA demanding and getting full withdrawal of all British power from continental North America (including Newfoundland as part of that obviously) is not outside the realm of sane possibility, given the Rebel factions in the Maritimes and that Quebec can in effect be conquered as far effectively blocking British power there by taking and holding Quebec City itself. And given other ATL breaks in favor of the general alliances with France and others doing somewhat better than OTL.

This leaves your assertion that Quebec cannot be expected to join the US adopting the new US Constitution. I don't think your say so is borne out by any really concrete considerations actually. If you can stipulate it could participate as a state under the Articles, what is so radically difficult about a state of Quebec (or Canada, or Nouveau France; the British pretty much invented the terminology of Quebec=the French settlement area as a whole; Canada might have been the preferred term of the Patriots to distinguish from the invidious function they attributed to the proclamation of the really gigantic Quebec Province in 1774) participating as an integral part of the Union under the Constitution?

It is true the vast majority of inhabitants of such a state would have been French speakers, but the Constitution would permit the state, as long as it had a "republican form of government," to be pretty autonomous. I estimate from the population of Quebec (as the British defined it around 1790) to be 161,000, which puts it between New Jersey and New Hampshire in size at the time, that Quebec as a state would be apportioned 4 Representatives--this at a time when Virginia then the largest state had 19 and the average among the 15 states was 7. So it would not be a large state by population, but neither would it be tiny, having a larger delegation to the House than 5 states. Noting that the states controlled the terms of who comprised their electorate, I daresay the Representatives and Senators would be quite proficient in English, whereas French was of course a prestigious language of culture and diplomacy, so their Francophone background would be little barrier to their conducting business in Congress. In terms of geography a state of say Canada would be off to the side of the main thrusts of westward settlement, so while they would be in some danger of being swamped by English speaking immigrants, I think they would be left largely in peace to remain Francophone, and US political culture would just adapt to include them.

As for their Catholicism, Maryland of course was supposed to be a refuge for English Catholics when founded; its Catholic settlers had been overwhelmed by other, Protestant English subjects, but the USA in fact had some important Catholic figures among the Framer generation. I daresay open bigotry would be a thing for centuries to come, but again it hardly seems like something that would guarantee Quebec cannot possibly integrate into the larger USA, with or without keeping a very distinct cultural identity. I expect "with," and by the time Yankees start getting really aggressive about dominating the region demographically, the high Quebecois birthrate will have secured the state as a French-speaking majority while the political and general culture of the USA will have normalized Quebec, under whatever name, as integral to the USA.

The US alliance with France during the Articles period would smooth over this acceptance.
 

Lusitania

Donor
@Lusitania:

The USA was not in the ARW completely alone; we had allies, mainly France. If we combine somewhat better success in the early invasion of Quebec and the Maritimes--in the latter at least some fair number of locals sympathized with the Patriot cause, so I certainly don't think it is crazy that they, barring Newfoundland of course, and granting Halifax might hold out all through the war being well fortified and supplied by sea, might go over to the US side and in the ATL, it would be more than 13 colonies counted as in the Revolution from the beginning--with France giving the British a harder run for their money in other distant theaters, the outcome could be the British agreeing to quit-claim all North American territories, even those they actually were in effective control of. After all OTL the British conquered what is today New York City, and held it all through the war, but gave it up as part of the peace agreement. If driven out of the Maritimes by force including a substantial share of their own domestic population joining the Rebels (so this loss looks, in the OTL, exactly like that of any other colony in our OTL 13) which would impede their communications with Quebec, and Quebec's own key points, notably Quebec city itself, were under Yankee occupation, why should they cavil at writing off the Francophone colony too? This just leaves Newfoundland outstanding, and Rupert's Land. Certainly the US forces were not capable of ousting British control of either by force. But if other victories the American rebels might have been capable of have deprived the Crown of the territories making the North American continent profitable, what, other than just hanging in there to give the Yankees headaches in the future perhaps, motivates keeping Newfoundland as well?

Rupert's Land is another story; the Hudson Bay Company made some investors in Britain good money, whereas the Yankees would have a hard time sustaining expeditions capable of making the land around the Bay too hot for the Company to profit. But even here, certainly, if not right away then in near future decades, a suitably irritated USA, recovered from Revolutionary War losses, having undergone some growth, and with no other British presences to distract and sap them, could in fact at least seize or destroy the major trading centers, and if we are to be blunt, commit genocide aimed at the HBC's Native American partners. Making it too hot to be profitable is not cheap or easy to do in the 1770s, but if the USA has consolidated Quebec into itself, then harassing HBC out of business is certainly possible, if perhaps an unnecessary flexing of muscle.

I think that if the US has in fact secured the more southerly Maritimes via indigenous Patriots, and secured a strong hold on key Quebec conquests, while also perhaps being stronger in the southern states to justify a Yankee claim on the Floridas too, then the Yankee war aim of driving Britain right off the continent, so they have no bases from which to attack the USA by land directly, might have enough momentum, especially in the context of French victories anywhere else in the world, to persuade the British to agree to make a clean sweep of evacuating the whole continent (well not in Central America, but the part of the continent the USA was directly worried about). Newfoundland by itself is not much of an additional concession, and while Rupert's Land is, if the American negotiators can soften the blow by for instance making agreements with HBC they can continue operations and even perhaps the USA can agree to remit some cash payment from the US tax proceeds on HBC business to fatten British profits from the operation in compensations, then the management of HBC will come around to advocating for agreeing to let them operate under Yankee supervision.

So while I think it is a long shot, I do think that the USA demanding and getting full withdrawal of all British power from continental North America (including Newfoundland as part of that obviously) is not outside the realm of sane possibility, given the Rebel factions in the Maritimes and that Quebec can in effect be conquered as far effectively blocking British power there by taking and holding Quebec City itself. And given other ATL breaks in favor of the general alliances with France and others doing somewhat better than OTL.

This leaves your assertion that Quebec cannot be expected to join the US adopting the new US Constitution. I don't think your say so is borne out by any really concrete considerations actually. If you can stipulate it could participate as a state under the Articles, what is so radically difficult about a state of Quebec (or Canada, or Nouveau France; the British pretty much invented the terminology of Quebec=the French settlement area as a whole; Canada might have been the preferred term of the Patriots to distinguish from the invidious function they attributed to the proclamation of the really gigantic Quebec Province in 1774) participating as an integral part of the Union under the Constitution?

It is true the vast majority of inhabitants of such a state would have been French speakers, but the Constitution would permit the state, as long as it had a "republican form of government," to be pretty autonomous. I estimate from the population of Quebec (as the British defined it around 1790) to be 161,000, which puts it between New Jersey and New Hampshire in size at the time, that Quebec as a state would be apportioned 4 Representatives--this at a time when Virginia then the largest state had 19 and the average among the 15 states was 7. So it would not be a large state by population, but neither would it be tiny, having a larger delegation to the House than 5 states. Noting that the states controlled the terms of who comprised their electorate, I daresay the Representatives and Senators would be quite proficient in English, whereas French was of course a prestigious language of culture and diplomacy, so their Francophone background would be little barrier to their conducting business in Congress. In terms of geography a state of say Canada would be off to the side of the main thrusts of westward settlement, so while they would be in some danger of being swamped by English speaking immigrants, I think they would be left largely in peace to remain Francophone, and US political culture would just adapt to include them.

As for their Catholicism, Maryland of course was supposed to be a refuge for English Catholics when founded; its Catholic settlers had been overwhelmed by other, Protestant English subjects, but the USA in fact had some important Catholic figures among the Framer generation. I daresay open bigotry would be a thing for centuries to come, but again it hardly seems like something that would guarantee Quebec cannot possibly integrate into the larger USA, with or without keeping a very distinct cultural identity. I expect "with," and by the time Yankees start getting really aggressive about dominating the region demographically, the high Quebecois birthrate will have secured the state as a French-speaking majority while the political and general culture of the USA will have normalized Quebec, under whatever name, as integral to the USA.

The US alliance with France during the Articles period would smooth over this acceptance.


In the realm of possibility as you point out anything is possible but the scenario pointed out is not realistic. For the Americans could not force the brutish to give up anything more than the 13 colonies in rebellion.

Remember that France ally had no desire to make US a powerful country it wanted to weaken Britain. To exemplify this the French worked against the US in the peace negotiations and the US alarmed st the French intentions then negotiated directly with the British. So the French ally theory does not reflect reality.

But let’s move forward and say that “mad” king George does withdraw Britain from North America for as I remember American history books he was MAD and unstable.

How does the a bankrupt US force hostile Quebec, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland to join them? It cannot, it has no ability to occupy and force anyone. So the only way would be to invite these late comers to the party ask ask their opinion. So let’s see they are invited told of the wonderful things that had been agreed upon and asked to please sign. Hm that works right that proper inclusion and asking for their input. What you think these people will say. Hm.. take a leap of a cliff would be good start except the Quebec which is 99% French Catholic they say it in French.

The Americans either have to let these people decide their own future which will be independent or stay part of Britain. Newfoundland stayed part of Britain till 1949 do to tell me you forcing them is a fantasy. That you forcing québécois is just as likely.

Why can’t you force them you may ask because the US was bankrupt, had a huge debt and had a continental army that had not been paid in months and was buying stuff on credit. This was the reason that continental army was disbanded and federal government reduced to bone.

Therefore if the 13 winter to make it 16 then negotiations need to restart and bringing 3 more players (reluctant) to table reopen many more divisions. Question how the other delegates handle French que voos demands for French language in Congress? Please don’t tell me they have to speak English. They are French and now starting to wonder do we trust the WASP or we go on our own? So what they going to be told french only allowed in Quebec but not outside? Are the constitution/articles and future government documents going to written in both languages? Laugh or dismiss this if you think that US might will force the Québécois to speak English but that is not the case of 18th century. So what happens do the 3 newcomers decide that if they are going to join make themselves as strong as powerful and hence those who supported articles are going to be bolstered. In any event the inclusion of the 3 means US constitution as iotl is dead and a different document will be required to be written.

But.... you can ignore everything I said and gave every one sit in circle sing hyms make believe it works out. There is always a magic wand also.
 
I didn't include Newfoundland (not yet at any rate). The negotiations were tough. But everyone was reasonably happy. Quebec does still have some grievances with their new overlords, and they would take some time to iron out. It would take beyond Washington, or his immediate successors, to iron out.
 

Lusitania

Donor
I didn't include Newfoundland (not yet at any rate). The negotiations were tough. But everyone was reasonably happy. Quebec does still have some grievances with their new overlords, and they would take some time to iron out. It would take beyond Washington, or his immediate successors, to iron out.
But that is just the point the US cannot and does not have the means to be overlords to force the people of Quebec to be part of the US. This is a failure of most TL.
 

Lusitania

Donor
I didn't include Newfoundland (not yet at any rate). The negotiations were tough. But everyone was reasonably happy. Quebec does still have some grievances with their new overlords, and they would take some time to iron out. It would take beyond Washington, or his immediate successors, to iron out.
This is again proving my point that the French were not interested in replacing lenient and very easy going British overlord with some wild American overlord. Thanks for proving my point
 

Lusitania

Donor
Not necessarily. You can still have a silly timeline and have it in pre1900 timelines.
We are Canadian and we are not amused. This is your final warning to desist otherwise the beaver divisions and armored moose armies will move south. Our Canada Gesse air squadrons are being scrambled as we type. While our sea lion and killer whale fleets are being deployed as well as our beluga whale carriers are on high alert and our pelican squadrons have been given your cities coordinates.
 
I’m Canadian too. So you will face my army of hockey playing timbit eating hosers with poutine artillery.
 
Top