Borders in New World without colonialism

[Tomislav Addai]

If you look at borders in the Americas, partly in Africa and Oceania as well, they were drawn arbitrarily by European powers.

So my question is, what would borders in North, South America, in Australia and Papua, and in Africa look without colonialism?

Looking forward for seeing soem nice maps

 

[Somebody-Someone]

Some things to note :
1. Any contact with the New World or to a lesser extent Oceania would still cause 80+% of the population to die from disease, which would collapse many states.
2. No Age of Colonialism does not mean no intercontinental colonialism. I expect that in this scenario, as soon as gold is discovered in Alaska and California, east asian filibuster states will pop up quickly, even if there is no effort expended on the parts of governments. Also, as a result of population and technology differential, as well as depopulation, tropical Australia will likely be significantly indonesianised.

 

[BelfastBrawler]

There wouldn't be a concept of borders as the people living there had not even invented the concepts of nation states.

 

[Crazy Boris]

There wouldn't be a concept of borders as the people living there had not even invented the concepts of nation states.

But the concept of a state could spread from those that did (Aztec, Iroquois, Powhatan) and in a few hundred years time, we could end up with nomadic Sioux empires and coastal Haida city-states and stuff

 

[BelfastBrawler]

But the concept of a state could spread from those that did (Aztec, Iroquois, Powhatan) and in a few hundred years time, we could end up with nomadic Sioux empires and coastal Haida city-states and stuff

Would they?
It depends on a lot of variables. You first have to have a lot of people. Then you have to develop cities. That creates the need for centralized governments. And then you need a taxation system that makes borders, or land control at least, relevant. Then you need to have an enemy. Nothing makes borders more important that disputes on said borders. So i'd have to say they would be improbable. In fact even in Europe nations weren't nations until a few centuries ago. I think you should take a look at Japan if you want to see what they would've looked like. At the height of the age of colonialism Japan, or more precisly the area that is today Japan, was a feudal system. That is because it's a simple "Might makes right" system. And that is actually the opposite of what you need in order to have nation states. Diplomacy. Yes you can say, "see this land between those mountains and that forests belongs to our kind" but unless at least the vast majority of people agree on said borders, it doesn't matter. And the concept of sovereignty isn't as straightforward as you think, which again, is very important to have nation states.
The most probable kind of borders that would exist is the ones similar to feudal systems. You wouldn't have central goverment that dictates what the borders are but patches of land in control of people who have the streghth to protect them

Also note that technology, monetary systems, religion, and pretty much everything will dictate the way the proto-goverments crystalize and that in turns determines how the borders will be enforced or even if they will exist at all.

 

[Not Plato]

Some things to note :
1. Any contact with the New World or to a lesser extent Oceania would still cause 80+% of the population to die from disease, which would collapse many states.
2. No Age of Colonialism does not mean no intercontinental colonialism. I expect that in this scenario, as soon as gold is discovered in Alaska and California, east asian filibuster states will pop up quickly, even if there is no effort expended on the parts of governments. Also, as a result of population and technology differential, as well as depopulation, tropical Australia will likely be significantly indonesianised.

Huh, that actually sounds like quite an interesting concept. I can imagine an Asian-American country taking up Central California, probably with a culture similar to the Boers, given the similar history.

On another note, I highly doubt that the Americas would go entirely uncolonized. The Spanish would likely take over the Caribbean, and the French the Saint Lawrence River. The only way I can see this happening is that somehow the Aztecs manage to repel the Spanish invasion and not die of disease.

 

[Tomislav Addai]

My go at South America.
Antisuyu would get independence from Tawantinsuyu at some point, after the Ayamran independence movement.
The three Chaco State (Matacoa, Toba, and Chiquita) might have gained independence from Guaani, Charrua orTwantinsuyu