TL-191: After the End

[David bar Elias]

i like it very much,
i'd like to know about the political changes in the old CSA, what party is strongest down there? the Democrats being anti-CSA for so long and the Socialists are to far left for the CSA. so are the Republicans regrouping in the south land? or are the Whigs and Rad Libs coming back?

All of the old Confederate parties are gone. I'll get to that when the Southern states begin re-joining.

also Texas? what's going on there?

They're very thankful that they got out while the going was good...

Mormons how is all of this changing them? when will the Sandwich Isles become states, and Russian Alaska?

The Mormons view themselves as exiled from their rightful homeland. The Sandwich Isles (outside of the Big Island), will be joining the Union soon.

By '60s, Alaska is a Military District, where numerous resource-extraction companies will be moving into...

how are all the non-Americans taking being part of the USA?

They're either resentful (a spiteful few), or resigned, by the time Humphrey comes to power.

Aye. I definately thought Jamaica would fall during the second great war, it was just never mentioned. Having all the major Anglophone regions of North America under one flag is always enjoyable, though.

It is certainly interesting, to say the least.

I definitely agree that many Confederate die-hards would likely move to South Africa. It wouldn't be any kind of mass-exodus or anything, but I see at least enough for it to be noteworthy.

I always kind of saw Chester Martin continuing his slow slide into politics, probably eventually running for office and ending up as a prominent Socialist Congressman or Senator.

If Rita allows for it.

Over time, I think its likely that we will see a Cold War develop between Germany and the USA, the beginnings of which were alluded to at several points during the American Empire series. They are the only two countries with superbombs, and even though they were on the same side during the war, I don't think that the foreign policy goals of the two new superpowers are going to necessarily continue along the same track.

There's not going to be a mirror version of OTL's Cold War between the Germans and Americans: they really don't have anything to fight about. Besides, the Germans are far more worried about Russia, while the USA has more pressing concerns with Japan...

Ah, finally someone who's decided to do a post-Setting Accounts Timeline-191...uh, TL. Good stuff so far, but I do wish we would get to see more of the problems and politics of the smaller nations around the world; also, what provinces that are in dispute with Russia does Japan now 'formally' have? Just wondering.

The Japanese now have control of OTL Amur Oblast, Jewish Autonomous Oblast, Khabarovsk Krai, and Kamchatka Krai.

Also, what's up with the Republic of Texas? Will we get to see her succession of Presidents after Wright Patman? And how do Texans feel about being an American satellite nation, etc.? As for the Ottoman empire, what's going on with them? We know they have the IM now (I wasn't actually expecting this...I thought maybe they'd be thrown into the U.S.'s camp after perhaps fearing growing German dominance), will they get a superbomb? What does it currently look like right now (i.e. what territories do they hold)?

The Texans are lucky even to have their token independence. By the 1960s, they're a nice place for rich Americans to use as a tax shelter.

The Ottomans control all of the Middle East, portions of the Caucuses, and have puppet states of their own running Egypt and the Sudan.

At the moment, the only thing keeping them from building their own bomb is German pressure...

As for Austria-Hungary...if I recall correctly, I've heard before that an idea once posited by Archduke Franz Ferdinand was to eventually turn the empire over into some sort of confederation between her participant nations; perhaps this is what happens to her, rather than fall apart? It still retains all the territories she once had as a monarchy, but it's a parliamentary democracy, or something like that at some point in the future (it also gives a bit of poke toward the satellite nations of the Soviet Union in eastern Europe, considering Germany's growing dominance). Which brings me to another point: maybe a Hohenzollern who tries to unite the throne with Habsburgs?

All possibilities...

What I want to know is, when did Sam Carsten finally succumb to skin cancer?

Well if you want to know he said he wanted to take the longest sun-bath ever getting the world record for sun-born and getting and his dead body dip in zinc oxide

Well, uh, logically going by the end of Settling Accounts regarding Sam Carsten, we can assume of course that he's probably succumbed to skin cancer by around 1960, or I'd at least think so.

Of course, there's always the possibility that we may have to deal with his treatments regarding it.

Sam Carsten will get a mention in the "Whatever happened to...?" segment.

This is far too depressing to continue reading

Which means it's succeeded, I suppose

My apologies. I'm merely continuing on the trajectory of TL-191.

Nicely done, but a few questions:

1) Is there now an independent U.S. Air Force under the DOD reorganization? One would think that the Army aviators have been chafing to be on their own, as they did in OTL.

Yup. I've added it into the timeline.

2) U.S. Navy's first nuclear sub-in 1955? U.S.S. Nautilus as in OTL?

In TL-191, the U.S.S. Pittsburgh is launched in 1954.

3) I gather that if there is an independent USAF, there's SAC, TAC, ADC, and MATS....

Yes, although some of it is structured differently (with the Japanese in mind, instead of the Soviets).

4) Australia and NZ hosting U.S. military forces, perhaps?

Yup; the Compact of Democratic States is a combination of our world's United Nations and NATO. They'll play a major role in any future conflict that breaks out in the Pacific.

 

[black angel]

well you'd better get cracking on part 2

 

[Matt Wiser]

Or German threats: the Kaiser would tell the Ottoman Sultan "If you so much as think about getting the bomb, we'll deliver some to you, via the Luftwaffe." Not to mention that nationalist tendencies in the Middle East could use some firing up-see how the Ottomans like revolts in OTL Syria, Palestine, Iraq, etc.

U.S.S. Pittsburgh: Wouldn't that be a carrier name? It was a battle, after all.

 

[Nevermore]

Hey, Dave, thought I'd cook something up for your continuation here. I personally don't think it's very good, but you may think otherwise (first time doing one of these). It's a map of North America, in the current year of 1961 in TL-191:

Updated (Guatemala's mis-label as 'Honduras' fixed; legend made more legible; also added Kentucky and Tennessee as states):

(Credit goes to whomever thought this map layout from AH.com's Map Thread)

Anyway, lemme know what you think of it, and if you want me to, I'll keep updating this one and trying to do ones for other parts of the world, as well (or if someone else wants to, all the more power to 'em).

Also, some more questions:
What part of the Caucuses do the Ottomans control?
What's a rough approximation of what the Empire of Japan looks like?
What's the political situation in Russia? Seems to me that Czar Mikhail won't be in office much longer, considering his genocide against Russia's Jews and all of that jazz...will Russia be seeing a coup in the future? Or does she turn from an absolute monarchy to a parliamentary (or maybe even constitutional) democracy? Constitutional monarchy?
Might the Republic of Texas someday see a man named George W. Bush as its leader (or his less famous father)?
Who's currently leading Austria-Hungary (as this is a blip on Turtledove's part, the leadership hierarchy seems to be a bit screwed up; some think that it could be Emperor-King Karl II though) and the Ottoman empire?

 

[Nevermore]

Not to mention that nationalist tendencies in the Middle East could use some firing up-see how the Ottomans like revolts in OTL Syria, Palestine, Iraq, etc.

Personally, if any part of the Ottoman empire decides to start a rebellion anytime soon, I think it'll either be Armenia or Saudi Arabia. Hope it isn't Armenia though, as I don't think there are too many left of them in Turkey...and a genocide might be even worse for them if they try again. Saudi Arabia looks likely simply due to their history of this point wanting their own independence from higher powers (formerly the British, I believe, now the Ottomans). I'd imagine the situation will devolve similarly into how it is with the U.S. and the Mormons from Utah: long periods of 'peace' with the occasional long conflict thrown in for good measure.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

I doubt Saudi Arabia will ever exist. Given new revenues and time to improve the military and economy the Ottomans would have had the so-called Arab Revolt for lunch. No Jewish state either, of course.

Chances are the Ottomans, now joined by Persian Gulf oil revenue, are liable to a major economic force and a medium power in the world.

Yucatan might be independent from Mexico or spoils to Guatamala.

One problem with the timeline is going to be Japan's role, as Turtledove's portrayal of Japan is difficult to classify as remotely plausible. The number of times Japan attacked vastly superior powers which somehow forgot Japan ever existed, or even the colonies seized by Japan, flunked any credibility test.

 

[Faeelin]

One problem with the timeline is going to be Japan's role, as Turtledove's portrayal of Japan is difficult to classify as remotely plausible. The number of times Japan attacked vastly superior powers which somehow forgot Japan ever existed, or even the colonies seized by Japan, flunked any credibility test.

Leaving aside that godawful Pacific War, what else was there?

 

[Neroon]

I don't think there'll be any Cold War between TTL US and Germany. 3 Reasons:

- Much less conflicting ideologies, especially if there was constitutional reform in Germany and it's now more Parliamentary then OTLs was in 1914.
- Much less conflicting Spheres of Influence (not none, but less)
- Other threats to worry about

 

[Euroman26]

I don't think there'll be any Cold War between TTL US and Germany. 3 Reasons:

- Much less conflicting ideologies, especially if there was constitutional reform in Germany and it's now more Parliamentary then OTLs was in 1914.
- Much less conflicting Spheres of Influence (not none, but less)
- Other threats to worry about

But by lets say by 1960. Germany and Europe (Minus Russia) aren't democracis are they???

/Fred

p.s. The whole point of TL-191 series isn't that in way that HT states. With disunited USA, then the rest of the world stays in the semi-feudal mode it was before WW1 in OT?
And we non-americans then have to thank our Lord and savior that Lincoln won the Civilwar??

 

[Umbric Man]

p.s. The whole point of TL-191 series isn't that in way that HT states. With disunited USA, then the rest of the world stays in the semi-feudal mode it was before WW1 in OT?
And we non-americans then have to thank our Lord and savior that Lincoln won the Civilwar??

Uh. What?

Someone's certainly hating on America today.

 

[Adam]

But by lets say by 1960. Germany and Europe (Minus Russia) aren't democracis are they???

/Fred

p.s. The whole point of TL-191 series isn't that in way that HT states. With disunited USA, then the rest of the world stays in the semi-feudal mode it was before WW1 in OT?
And we non-americans then have to thank our Lord and savior that Lincoln won the Civilwar??

Yup, else you'd be living under a fascist/communist jackboot now.

 

[Snarf]

Hey, Dave, thought I'd cook something up for your continuation here. I personally don't think it's very good, but you may think otherwise (first time doing one of these). It's a map of North America, in the current year of 1961 in TL-191:

(Credit goes to whomever thought this map layout from AH.com's Map Thread)

Anyway, lemme know what you think of it, and if you want me to, I'll keep updating this one and trying to do ones for other parts of the world, as well (or if someone else wants to, all the more power to 'em).

Also, some more questions:
What part of the Caucuses do the Ottomans control?
What's a rough approximation of what the Empire of Japan looks like?
What's the political situation in Russia? Seems to me that Czar Mikhail won't be in office much longer, considering his genocide against Russia's Jews and all of that jazz...will Russia be seeing a coup in the future? Or does she turn from an absolute monarchy to a parliamentary (or maybe even constitutional) democracy? Constitutional monarchy?
Might the Republic of Texas someday see a man named George W. Bush as its leader (or his less famous father)?
Who's currently leading Austria-Hungary (as this is a blip on Turtledove's part, the leadership hierarchy seems to be a bit screwed up; some think that it could be Emperor-King Karl II though) and the Ottoman empire?

The nation identified as Honduras on the map is in fact Guatemala. Honduras should be the larger nation directly to the east of Guatemala. And what of Belize (a/k/a British Honduras)--do the British lose that territory as well?

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Faeelin, in this TL's WWI Japan grabbed Germany's Pacific colonies, the ones Australia/New Zealand didn't get and somehow Germany forgot all about those colonies even though the German High Seas Fleet, not even counting possible US support, would have outgunned the IJN by a massive ratio of between five and ten to one.

Needless to say, the likelihood of Prussians forgetting either an insult or seized territory is not too high.

Then the US not once but twice decided to forget all about pesky wars with Japan.

And, of course, despite Japan's seizing French and Dutch colonies it never struck the British or Russians that they might have a little bit of a problem building...



Euroman26, since this Germany apparently allowed itself to be outarmed, something most unPrussian-like, it would be plausible that Germany had indeed become a more modern and peaceful nation...until WWII began.

It also isn't clear that Russia is feudal, as opposed to a constitutional monarchy which survived because Germany preferred the Tsar and the Duma to the Bolsheviks and acted accordingly.

I don't see anything feudal about France or the UK as presented.

 

[Euroman26]

Uh. What?

Someone's certainly hating on America today.

I am not anti-american I am quite the obvisit, thank you.

My point being. United States of America is our Timeline a force for good restoring democracy and the economy in Western Europe after WW2. Creating World bank, UN etc.

While in TL-191 this is not the case, thus semi-feudal society of pre WW1 OT is allowed to continue.

/Fred

 

[Lord Insane]

While in TL-191 this is not the case, thus semi-feudal society of pre WW1 OT is allowed to continue.

/Fred

Problem: the semi-feudal society of pre-WW1 wasn't very feudal.
Further problem: in many ways, it was the war itself that changed things. The US entry certainly wasn't the cause for the changed post-War society, more then that it secured Germany's defeat, helped the German revolution-thingy occur by the increasing pressure Germans felt due to the enormous armies being marshalled in the West, and modified borders.
One could also ask why, if the qualifier 'pre' WW1 is needed, a state's action after WW2 would have an impact...

So, no. The US simply wasn't that important until the Second World War. European trends would affect Europe, as in OTL.
Yes, Germany would still be an Empire, and yes, the nobility and the Emperor would still keep power- but calling it semi-feudal is a bit too strong, and things were changing. It's entirely plausible that, by WW2, the German Empire would be rather democratic, due to internal reform.

 

[Euroman26]

Problem: the semi-feudal society of pre-WW1 wasn't very feudal.
Further problem: in many ways, it was the war itself that changed things. The US entry certainly wasn't the cause for the changed post-War society, more then that it secured Germany's defeat, helped the German revolution-thingy occur by the increasing pressure Germans felt due to the enormous armies being marshalled in the West, and modified borders.
One could also ask why, if the qualifier 'pre' WW1 is needed, a state's action after WW2 would have an impact...

So, no. The US simply wasn't that important until the Second World War. European trends would affect Europe, as in OTL.
Yes, Germany would still be an Empire, and yes, the nobility and the Emperor would still keep power- but calling it semi-feudal is a bit too strong, and things were changing. It's entirely plausible that, by WW2, the German Empire would be rather democratic, due to internal reform.

I was not refering to Germany only. Austria-Hungary, Ottoman Empire etc

Al these still exist by 1944 cause United States became a Central-Power country in TL-191.
Thereby in some ways the Europe of Nations doesn't exist!

 

[Lord Insane]

I was not refering to Germany only. Austria-Hungary, Ottoman Empire etc

Al these still exist by 1944 cause United States became a Central-Power country in TL-191.
Thereby in some ways the Europe of Nations doesn't exist!

Which is far from the same thing as 'semi-feudal'. It's not like the Sublime Porte was stagnant, anyhow.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Give the Ottomans a generation without the British or Russians preying on them and they won't look remotely feudal, especially with the oil fields.

 

[Euroman26]

Give the Ottomans a generation without the British or Russians preying on them and they won't look remotely feudal, especially with the oil fields.

I am gonna go with a no to that as Bill Lomburg from Office Space would say.

OT Ottoman empire had Sharia as the main basis for their society. So by feudal I gonna with a Saudi Arabia-style society.

Maybe an Islamo Facist state??

 

[Nevermore]

The nation identified as Honduras on the map is in fact Guatemala. Honduras should be the larger nation directly to the east of Guatemala. And what of Belize (a/k/a British Honduras)--do the British lose that territory as well?

Um, yeah, whoops, that's a mis-label on my part, however, it is correct that British Honduras unified with Guatemala: they're now one nation. Check out David's original post to find it under the Treaty of Aachen section, one of the last bullet points I believe.