RN throws out the rule book after the three Illustrious class carriers and Indomitable, Implacable and Indefatigable are ordered with two full length hangers 17.5ft high with only splinter protection vertically. Flight and Hanger Decks are armoured as otl. With war imminent as the designs are drawn up the treaty limitations are considered irrelevant. HMS Unicorn is ordered not as an Armoured Carrier/maintenance ship but to the same design as a Colossus class light carrier.
If only I had a triple 12in gun turret model lying around...
... wait a minute. I do. Hold that thought.
edit:
Yep, this is what happens when pretty much every part is off the shelf...
Last edited:
McPherson
Banned
If only I had a triple 12in gun turret model lying around...
... wait a minute. I do. Hold that thought.
edit:
Yep, this is what happens when pretty much every part is off the shelf...
Why am I thinking of the SMS Szent István and what happened to her?
2 reasons:
That the angle of the pic made the hull looked higher than it actually is, and it was a scaled down version of another ship. Although it was only a difference of 13m in length and 1m in beam.
Mars 1927
Alyskan fleet carrier
Displacement
16,530 tons standard
Speed
32 Knots
Range
8,000 nautical miles
Propulsion
9 small tube boilers, four geared turbines driving quadruple screws
Dimensions
171 metres long, 25 metres wide, 8 meters draught
ArmourxArmament
4 inch belt, 3 inch splinter deck beneath hangar. 6x2 10.5 cm guns, 4x1 7.5 cm AA guns. Armament altered significantly during wartime.
Aircraft embarked
Single hangar, designed compliment 50 aircraft. By 1940 36 aircraft split into three squadrons of twelve planes each with DB, TB and Fighter squadrons capable of being carried.
History
Although the 1923 Washington Naval Treaty had provided Alyska the ability to rebuild two of their then building battleships into aircraft carriers, in a manner similar to the Lexington class in the USA and the Akagi and Amagi in Japan, the Alyskan navy decided to scrap these ships. Doing so as another part of their drive to receive permission to build the two Admiraal class battleships instead which complied with the treaties 35,000 ton displacement cap. At the time the Alyskan navy relied on airships to carry out the role envisaged for carriers, airborne reconnaissance. Making a carrier of dubious value to the navy anyway.
A year after the signing of the treaty however the navy laid down a small seventeen thousand ton carrier to test out the basic premise of such a ship and compare its abilities to those of the airships currently in service. The future Mars would be laid down on the third of June 1924 and the ship would complete in August of 1927. Fully working up and commissioning into the navy on the first of the year 1928. The ship then undertook an exhaustive series of tests to determine her effectiveness, as well as how to get the most out of the ship. These tests included round the clock flight operations of her airgroup in all weather conditions, tests to determine the best methods of refueling and rearming future carriers. Concluded in the middle of 1929 and with a full report delivered early in 1930 it showed clearly that airships had been outclasses by seaborne carriers in the reconnaissance and strike roles.
The lessons learned through testing the Mars would take some time to be fully digested, and it would not be until 1933 that new carriers were laid down, the Romulus and Remus. Much larger these ships carried more aircraft than the now outdated Mars, as well as having the capacity to embark more modern types. As these ships entered operational service with the fleet Mars was relegated to the position of a training ship for new pilots and aircrews. Performing this mission, and the role of aircraft ferry throughout 1936-38. With the onset of the third Patagonian war in the middle of 1938 however the ship was fully commissioned once more and deployed to provide aircover for the naval element dispatched to south American waters in that year.
The ship primarily served to provide aircover for the fleet during her stay in the south Atlantic, the lack of any carriers in either the Argentine or Brazilian navies meant that the ships limited airgroup and inability to carry the new heavier bombers was not as much of an issue than if she was deployed with the other carriers of the first Naval Air group. When war with Japan broke out in 1941 some thought was given to deploying the ship alongside the Alyskan commitment to help the Netherlands in defence of the Dutch East Indies, though the renewal of Argentine air strikes against the battlefleet however this idea was dropped.
Mars participated in the big drive northwards undertaken by the fleet in May of 1942 to lure out the Argentine and Brazilian battleships into a fleet engagement. The ship avoided the main battle and her planes managed to locate the straggling Brazilian 2nd light cruiser division and help in its near total destruction. Unfortunately the ship would then be torpedoed by the Argentine Submarine Aguja on the 23rd, taking 420 tons of water. Damage control efforts saved the ship initially. However the ship then struck a mine two days later and the ship would take on another 3,500 tons of water. A storm during the day thwarted efforts to patch the hole and on the 24th the order was given to abandon ship and Mars was torpedoed by the Luiaard, F262 and sunk in twenty minutes when her avgas caught on fire.
Alyskan fleet carrier
Displacement
16,530 tons standard
Speed
32 Knots
Range
8,000 nautical miles
Propulsion
9 small tube boilers, four geared turbines driving quadruple screws
Dimensions
171 metres long, 25 metres wide, 8 meters draught
ArmourxArmament
4 inch belt, 3 inch splinter deck beneath hangar. 6x2 10.5 cm guns, 4x1 7.5 cm AA guns. Armament altered significantly during wartime.
Aircraft embarked
Single hangar, designed compliment 50 aircraft. By 1940 36 aircraft split into three squadrons of twelve planes each with DB, TB and Fighter squadrons capable of being carried.
History
Although the 1923 Washington Naval Treaty had provided Alyska the ability to rebuild two of their then building battleships into aircraft carriers, in a manner similar to the Lexington class in the USA and the Akagi and Amagi in Japan, the Alyskan navy decided to scrap these ships. Doing so as another part of their drive to receive permission to build the two Admiraal class battleships instead which complied with the treaties 35,000 ton displacement cap. At the time the Alyskan navy relied on airships to carry out the role envisaged for carriers, airborne reconnaissance. Making a carrier of dubious value to the navy anyway.
A year after the signing of the treaty however the navy laid down a small seventeen thousand ton carrier to test out the basic premise of such a ship and compare its abilities to those of the airships currently in service. The future Mars would be laid down on the third of June 1924 and the ship would complete in August of 1927. Fully working up and commissioning into the navy on the first of the year 1928. The ship then undertook an exhaustive series of tests to determine her effectiveness, as well as how to get the most out of the ship. These tests included round the clock flight operations of her airgroup in all weather conditions, tests to determine the best methods of refueling and rearming future carriers. Concluded in the middle of 1929 and with a full report delivered early in 1930 it showed clearly that airships had been outclasses by seaborne carriers in the reconnaissance and strike roles.
The lessons learned through testing the Mars would take some time to be fully digested, and it would not be until 1933 that new carriers were laid down, the Romulus and Remus. Much larger these ships carried more aircraft than the now outdated Mars, as well as having the capacity to embark more modern types. As these ships entered operational service with the fleet Mars was relegated to the position of a training ship for new pilots and aircrews. Performing this mission, and the role of aircraft ferry throughout 1936-38. With the onset of the third Patagonian war in the middle of 1938 however the ship was fully commissioned once more and deployed to provide aircover for the naval element dispatched to south American waters in that year.
The ship primarily served to provide aircover for the fleet during her stay in the south Atlantic, the lack of any carriers in either the Argentine or Brazilian navies meant that the ships limited airgroup and inability to carry the new heavier bombers was not as much of an issue than if she was deployed with the other carriers of the first Naval Air group. When war with Japan broke out in 1941 some thought was given to deploying the ship alongside the Alyskan commitment to help the Netherlands in defence of the Dutch East Indies, though the renewal of Argentine air strikes against the battlefleet however this idea was dropped.
Mars participated in the big drive northwards undertaken by the fleet in May of 1942 to lure out the Argentine and Brazilian battleships into a fleet engagement. The ship avoided the main battle and her planes managed to locate the straggling Brazilian 2nd light cruiser division and help in its near total destruction. Unfortunately the ship would then be torpedoed by the Argentine Submarine Aguja on the 23rd, taking 420 tons of water. Damage control efforts saved the ship initially. However the ship then struck a mine two days later and the ship would take on another 3,500 tons of water. A storm during the day thwarted efforts to patch the hole and on the 24th the order was given to abandon ship and Mars was torpedoed by the Luiaard, F262 and sunk in twenty minutes when her avgas caught on fire.
Braden Anderson
Banned
HMS BoatyMcBoatface
Displacement: 65,000 tonnes (64,000 long tons; 72,000 short tons)
Length: 280 m (920 ft)
Beam:
39 m (128 ft) (waterline)
73 m (240 ft) overall
Draught: 11 m (36 ft)
Propulsion: Integrated Electric Propulsion via Two Rolls-Royce Marine 36 MW MT30 gas turbine alternators and four 10 MW diesel engines
Speed: 25 knots (46 km/h)
Range: 10,000 nautical miles (19,000 km)
Capacity: 1,600
Troops: 250
Complement: 679
Sensors and
processing systems:
S1850M long range radar
Type 997 Artisan 3D medium range radar
Ultra Electronics Series 2500 Electro Optical System (EOS)
Armament:
3 x Phalanx CIWS
4 x 30mm calibre gun, various Miniguns and GPMGs to counter asymmetric threats.
Aircraft carried:
Planned Carrier Air Wing of 24 to 36 STOVL fighter jets & 14 helicopters
F-35B Lightning II
Chinook
Apache AH MK1
Merlin HM2 and HC4
Wildcat AH1 and HMA2
Merlin Crowsnest AEW
Aviation facilities:
Hangar below deck
Two aircraft lifts
Ski jump
Displacement: 65,000 tonnes (64,000 long tons; 72,000 short tons)
Length: 280 m (920 ft)
Beam:
39 m (128 ft) (waterline)
73 m (240 ft) overall
Draught: 11 m (36 ft)
Propulsion: Integrated Electric Propulsion via Two Rolls-Royce Marine 36 MW MT30 gas turbine alternators and four 10 MW diesel engines
Speed: 25 knots (46 km/h)
Range: 10,000 nautical miles (19,000 km)
Capacity: 1,600
Troops: 250
Complement: 679
Sensors and
processing systems:
S1850M long range radar
Type 997 Artisan 3D medium range radar
Ultra Electronics Series 2500 Electro Optical System (EOS)
Armament:
3 x Phalanx CIWS
4 x 30mm calibre gun, various Miniguns and GPMGs to counter asymmetric threats.
Aircraft carried:
Planned Carrier Air Wing of 24 to 36 STOVL fighter jets & 14 helicopters
F-35B Lightning II
Chinook
Apache AH MK1
Merlin HM2 and HC4
Wildcat AH1 and HMA2
Merlin Crowsnest AEW
Aviation facilities:
Hangar below deck
Two aircraft lifts
Ski jump
A 5-6" DP mount would probably take by early WWII at best to develop (post-WWII OTL), or whenever that level of technology is available in a certain TL. A power-rammed 6" gun that can briefly fire at 15 rpm was possible since 1904 OTL, possibly earlier in TLs, so that is easy. But the problem is getting the hoists to actually feed shells and casings to the gun that fast, and the real killer is building such a heavy mount that can still traverse and elevate fast enough to track aircraft.
This last issue killed the Richelieu's 15 cm guns' AA ability more than anything, as it did with German 15 cm destroyer guns in the AA role. A truly successful AA gun bigger than 5" was only achieved with the 6" guns on the Worcester (US) and Tiger (UK) class cruisers from 1948 onwards. Those also happened to be the only 6" AA guns to enter service because they came so late, and were made possible because they finally got turrets to rotate and guns to elevate fast enough.
The first attempt to instal a DP mounting of around 5.5 inch, (actually 138.6mm, or 5.46 inch) was on the follow up batch of the French Mogador Class, or Klébèr Class, where the mounting was at first considered to be capable of limmited AA use as well. The actual mount could elevate up to 35 degrees only so only long range barrage fire was possible and certainly not useful against divebomber attacks.
From Navweaps:
- Single Open Mounts
- Two-gun Enclosed Mounts 3b
- Volta (3): Model 1935
- Kléber (4): Model 1938 (?)
- ^The planned ships of the Kléber class would have had a maximum elevation of +35 degrees, but these ships were canceled upon France's defeat in 1940.
- ^Some sources quote a maximum elevation of +35 degrees for the Model 1935, but the recent "French Destroyers: Torpilleurs d'Escadre & Contre-Torpilleurs 1922 - 1956" quotes a maximum elevation of 30 degrees.
Sort off. I was working on a timeline awhile ago and other projects got in the way. I have been writing these to kind of jumpstart my interest in the time line.
Speaking of the carrier, does one of the changes to her armament include all DP guns rather than a mix of 75 mm and 4.1" calibre?
How fast was she? I'd imagine 3 triple turrets wuld be lighter than 5 duals and wing turrets.
Ahh. Well I can't remember any particulars about the ship. The class has since been replaced. As an early dreadnought I would say the ship was between 18-21 knots.
William Van Oranje
Dutch Battlecruiser
The German empires Mackensen class of battlecruisers were to be the pinnacle of the German empires navy in the buildup to world war one. However these impressive ships, each armed with eight 13.8 inch guns in four twin turrets they were the victims of a war in which their completion was not seen as terribly important. The resources required to complete these ships being diverted to the construction of U-boats and other war material. Following the battle of Jutland the ships construction was further halted. However, believing that these ships were nearing completion, or fully completed and in active service, the British Royal Navy would rush ahead with the completion of the Renown class and Admiral class Battlecruisers.
When the war was over the ships, or at least Mackensen, was required to be handed over to the victorious Allies. It took some time for the German navy to convince the Allies that the ships were not actually completed. In the ships place the Bayern was sent and alongside the rest of the High seas fleet was scuttled to prevent their being handed over to the Allies. The three ships that were the farthest along, Mackensen, Graf Spee and Prinz Eitel Friedrich would spend the period 1918-1920 languishing under the indecision and contemplation of the allies. Lacking guns and engines the three ships were given little interest by the Allies, though the German government did spend considerable time planning to convert them into merchant ships.
Enter the Royal Netherlands Navy, before the beginning of the first world war the Dutch had envisaged the creation of a fleet of ten battleships and battlecruisers. However, by the end of the war the Dutch fleet consisted of only outdated cruisers and coastal defense ships. A fleet totally obsolete in the face of the ships completed by the Japanese, American and British ships during the war. With this in mind the Netherlands inquired of the new Weimar Republic about the possibility of buying the incomplete German battleships. With the caveat that the ships be sold to breakers rather than the Netherlands proper Germany gave its approval, agreeing also to sell a quartet of incomplete cruisers as well.
The ships were delivered in 1920 and immediately work was began on the ships to get them ready to join the fleet. France was particularly vocal in their objections regarding the purchase of the vessels, though they were not alone in their consternation. However Germany and the Netherlands had been careful to make the sale of the ships as legal as possible. Claiming that breakers had bought the ships, and then some time later the Navy had purchased the hulls for completion for the RNLN. Work progressed gradually on the ships as time progressed. By 1921 it was planned to complete the ships by 1923, assuming armament could be found for the ships.
This was a major obstacle. The Netherlands did not have the domestic ability to manufacture guns larger than six inch, and the original armament of the ships had been long since scrapped as Germany worked to abide by the terms of the treaty of Versailles. The ships would thus languish incomplete for some time along the quay without armament, but essentially complete otherwise. Efforts to develop guns domestically for the ships showed that doing so would be prohibitively expensive. For some time as well it looked like purchasing guns from abroad was also out of the question.
Happily however a solution was found, the Royal Navy of Britain had built a series of ships armed with 13.5 inch guns. A significant stockpile of such weapons had been built up to keep the vessels using these guns supplied with spare barrels. With the coming of the Washington Naval treaty in 1922 however the UK was looking likely to scrap the majority of their ships armed with guns smaller than 15 inch, with the probable exception of some of the Iron Duke class ships and perhaps a battlecruiser or two. Under the terms of the Washington Naval treaty the sale of these guns would be illegal. So, working as quickly as possible, the Netherlands purchased as many barrels and shells as possible from the UK and quickly set about designing a turret capable of housing the guns for the ships. Britain avoided taking significant fallout from the deal and work proceeded gradually in the Netherlands.
All three ships would be completed finally in 1925-27, fully ten years after the German navy had intended to commission them. Named William van Oranje, Admiraal Tromp and Zealandia, the three ships were dispatched to the Indies following acceptance trials. Forming the first division and alongside the cruisers of the Java class forming the core element of the Dutch forces in the region. One ships was kept in the Netherlands for use as a training ship and to allow her to be refit, the ships being rotated annually to ensure that all ships remained as up to date as possible.
The ships remained the only Dutch battleships in service until the two ships of the De Zeven Provincen class joined the fleet in 1937 and 38. All three ships underwent major modernization from 1936 until 1939, receiving new 13.5 inch guns, the same as those mounted on the Provincen class vessels. New superstructures and secondary batteries were also included, as was provision for a single seaplane and catapult. When Germany invaded the Netherlands all three ships fled to the UK, the Zealandia carrying Queen Wilhelmina, many members of the government, and the nations treasury. This left the Netherlands with a force of five battleships, twelve cruisers and forty three destroyers, plus roughly sixty submarines and numerous flying boats. The majority of these ships were deployed to the Indies, where a showdown with Japan was rapidly developing.
Seeing the Japanese fleet running rampant in China and knowing that was inevitable the Netherlands declared war on the empire on Japan in 1941 and awaited the inevitable attack. What followed was the Indies campaign where the Japanese committed significant forces amounting to seven battleships, three carriers, ten cruisers and thirty destroyers. As well as many troops and army aircraft. Small skirmishes characterised the early phase of the fighting, however in the pivotal battle of the Java sea the Dutch, British, Australian and American forces suffered a major defeat at the hands of the Japanese fleet. Leaving just two Dutch battleships surviving, one of which was the Zealandia.
The ship made a voyage to the United States following the fall of the Dutch East Indies, damage sustained during the Japanese invasion being repaired and the ship updated with more modern radar and anti aircraft systems. The ship returned to active duty and was used to escort American carriers in 1943 and 44 before aiding in D-day, bombarding German positions and lending fire support where necessary. The ship would then carry the Dutch royal family back to the Netherlands following the liberation of the country and then return to carrier escort in the Pacific until the Japanese surrender.
Zealandia then acted as flagship of the Royal Netherlands Navy, the ship having gained significant fame during the war. During the war for Indonesian independence the ship again acted in the fire support role until eventually the independence of the new Indonesian state was recognized. The ship returned to the Netherlands for a final time and it was initially planned to scrap the ship before a massive public campaign resulted in money being set aside to make the ship a museum ship. Opening to the public in 1956 Zealandia has since become a symbol and popular tourist destination in the Netherlands. She is the only Dreadnought still in existence in Europe, and one of only two ships of the type still in existence worldwide, the other being the USS Texas. She is also arguably the only Imperial German warship still afloat today.
Dutch Battlecruiser
The German empires Mackensen class of battlecruisers were to be the pinnacle of the German empires navy in the buildup to world war one. However these impressive ships, each armed with eight 13.8 inch guns in four twin turrets they were the victims of a war in which their completion was not seen as terribly important. The resources required to complete these ships being diverted to the construction of U-boats and other war material. Following the battle of Jutland the ships construction was further halted. However, believing that these ships were nearing completion, or fully completed and in active service, the British Royal Navy would rush ahead with the completion of the Renown class and Admiral class Battlecruisers.
When the war was over the ships, or at least Mackensen, was required to be handed over to the victorious Allies. It took some time for the German navy to convince the Allies that the ships were not actually completed. In the ships place the Bayern was sent and alongside the rest of the High seas fleet was scuttled to prevent their being handed over to the Allies. The three ships that were the farthest along, Mackensen, Graf Spee and Prinz Eitel Friedrich would spend the period 1918-1920 languishing under the indecision and contemplation of the allies. Lacking guns and engines the three ships were given little interest by the Allies, though the German government did spend considerable time planning to convert them into merchant ships.
Enter the Royal Netherlands Navy, before the beginning of the first world war the Dutch had envisaged the creation of a fleet of ten battleships and battlecruisers. However, by the end of the war the Dutch fleet consisted of only outdated cruisers and coastal defense ships. A fleet totally obsolete in the face of the ships completed by the Japanese, American and British ships during the war. With this in mind the Netherlands inquired of the new Weimar Republic about the possibility of buying the incomplete German battleships. With the caveat that the ships be sold to breakers rather than the Netherlands proper Germany gave its approval, agreeing also to sell a quartet of incomplete cruisers as well.
The ships were delivered in 1920 and immediately work was began on the ships to get them ready to join the fleet. France was particularly vocal in their objections regarding the purchase of the vessels, though they were not alone in their consternation. However Germany and the Netherlands had been careful to make the sale of the ships as legal as possible. Claiming that breakers had bought the ships, and then some time later the Navy had purchased the hulls for completion for the RNLN. Work progressed gradually on the ships as time progressed. By 1921 it was planned to complete the ships by 1923, assuming armament could be found for the ships.
This was a major obstacle. The Netherlands did not have the domestic ability to manufacture guns larger than six inch, and the original armament of the ships had been long since scrapped as Germany worked to abide by the terms of the treaty of Versailles. The ships would thus languish incomplete for some time along the quay without armament, but essentially complete otherwise. Efforts to develop guns domestically for the ships showed that doing so would be prohibitively expensive. For some time as well it looked like purchasing guns from abroad was also out of the question.
Happily however a solution was found, the Royal Navy of Britain had built a series of ships armed with 13.5 inch guns. A significant stockpile of such weapons had been built up to keep the vessels using these guns supplied with spare barrels. With the coming of the Washington Naval treaty in 1922 however the UK was looking likely to scrap the majority of their ships armed with guns smaller than 15 inch, with the probable exception of some of the Iron Duke class ships and perhaps a battlecruiser or two. Under the terms of the Washington Naval treaty the sale of these guns would be illegal. So, working as quickly as possible, the Netherlands purchased as many barrels and shells as possible from the UK and quickly set about designing a turret capable of housing the guns for the ships. Britain avoided taking significant fallout from the deal and work proceeded gradually in the Netherlands.
All three ships would be completed finally in 1925-27, fully ten years after the German navy had intended to commission them. Named William van Oranje, Admiraal Tromp and Zealandia, the three ships were dispatched to the Indies following acceptance trials. Forming the first division and alongside the cruisers of the Java class forming the core element of the Dutch forces in the region. One ships was kept in the Netherlands for use as a training ship and to allow her to be refit, the ships being rotated annually to ensure that all ships remained as up to date as possible.
The ships remained the only Dutch battleships in service until the two ships of the De Zeven Provincen class joined the fleet in 1937 and 38. All three ships underwent major modernization from 1936 until 1939, receiving new 13.5 inch guns, the same as those mounted on the Provincen class vessels. New superstructures and secondary batteries were also included, as was provision for a single seaplane and catapult. When Germany invaded the Netherlands all three ships fled to the UK, the Zealandia carrying Queen Wilhelmina, many members of the government, and the nations treasury. This left the Netherlands with a force of five battleships, twelve cruisers and forty three destroyers, plus roughly sixty submarines and numerous flying boats. The majority of these ships were deployed to the Indies, where a showdown with Japan was rapidly developing.
Seeing the Japanese fleet running rampant in China and knowing that was inevitable the Netherlands declared war on the empire on Japan in 1941 and awaited the inevitable attack. What followed was the Indies campaign where the Japanese committed significant forces amounting to seven battleships, three carriers, ten cruisers and thirty destroyers. As well as many troops and army aircraft. Small skirmishes characterised the early phase of the fighting, however in the pivotal battle of the Java sea the Dutch, British, Australian and American forces suffered a major defeat at the hands of the Japanese fleet. Leaving just two Dutch battleships surviving, one of which was the Zealandia.
The ship made a voyage to the United States following the fall of the Dutch East Indies, damage sustained during the Japanese invasion being repaired and the ship updated with more modern radar and anti aircraft systems. The ship returned to active duty and was used to escort American carriers in 1943 and 44 before aiding in D-day, bombarding German positions and lending fire support where necessary. The ship would then carry the Dutch royal family back to the Netherlands following the liberation of the country and then return to carrier escort in the Pacific until the Japanese surrender.
Zealandia then acted as flagship of the Royal Netherlands Navy, the ship having gained significant fame during the war. During the war for Indonesian independence the ship again acted in the fire support role until eventually the independence of the new Indonesian state was recognized. The ship returned to the Netherlands for a final time and it was initially planned to scrap the ship before a massive public campaign resulted in money being set aside to make the ship a museum ship. Opening to the public in 1956 Zealandia has since become a symbol and popular tourist destination in the Netherlands. She is the only Dreadnought still in existence in Europe, and one of only two ships of the type still in existence worldwide, the other being the USS Texas. She is also arguably the only Imperial German warship still afloat today.