AHC: Autocratic West Germany

[Deleted member 96212]

What would it take for West Germany to become an authoritarian state in the same vein as a number of other anti-communist states in the Cold War, like South Korea, Taiwan/ROC, South Vietnam, and others? Liberalization and a turn to democracy is optional.

 

[Psmith]

I have a feeling that if something like the Stalin Note went through and both West and East withdrew from Germany and forgot about it in the early '50s, a siege mentality could set in combined with economic struggles that might make a repeat of the Weimar experience more likely. This is especially considering that eastern revaunchism wouldn't go away and Ostpolitic certainly wouldn't happen. But this, of course, is not West Germany alone straying down the dark path again, but rather a united Germany spat out and forgotten shortly after the War ends.

 

[Michele]

Presumably, a sizable Communist threat in the West. The RAF and similar groups were minuscule, actually, and the SPD always staunchly democratic, as well as never majoritary. If you have a significant, sizable, prone to violence movement for Communism-at-any-cost and possibly for reunification-in-the-other-direction, then harsher countermeasures become more likely.

 

[Maponus]

The Anlgosphere don't work out that Otto Strasser is a fraudster with no movement behind him as soon as they did OTL and foolishly give him even more undeserved political clout and legitimacy than they did OTL, allowing him to waltz onto the West German political scene and make himself President for life. The West will look the other way and convince themselves that Germans just aren't ready for democracy, and need "our Nazi" to keep them in line. In return Strasser will oblige them with the customary anti-Communism he displayed through most of his life, and perhaps be convinced to drop some of his more inconveniently utopian feudal-corporatist polices for the sake of speedy reconstruction.

Perhaps this would make most sense in an Allied Mussolini world.

 

[oberdada]

The Western Allies would have to leave Karl Dönitz in charge. This is pretty much a no go.

By 1946 the future 3 party system ( arguably 4 or 5 party system for a while) was pretty much established and state elections were held.
The 1949 constitution is pretty robust by design.

The KPD got 5% in 1949 and went downhill afterwards.

 

[Michele]

The KPD got 5% in 1949 and went downhill afterwards.

I didn't say that a serious Communist threat would be easy to support or realistic to come up with.

 

[Colonel Zoidberg]

They Weimar things up when they found West Germany and it all goes to shit right away? That or it’s more unstable and they go with a Syngman Rhee-type authoritarian whose mission is to build the nation back up, and in all likelihood, it transitions to a functioning democracy by the time the wall comes down.

 

[Michele]

They Weimar things up when they found West Germany and it all goes to shit right away?

Weimar Germany took two economic bullets, one when they managed to ruin their own country in order not to pay the war reparations, and the other when everyone else did, from 1929 onwards. That seems somewhat difficult to concoct in the 1950s-1960s.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

This isn’t West Germany but I do have a pod idea that involves Germany being broken into three countries after ww2. I was thinking a fascist Italy who is more powerful and smarter gets involved in ww2 later on against Germany. They occupy Austria and South Germany which they make into one fascist puppet nation. Italy is much more lenient with Germans when compared to the allies or the Soviets. This is the reason they advanced so fast through Germany during the war. Once the war looks lost Germans rather surrender to the Italians if given a choice. Italy only punishes the SS and top Nazis officials for war crimes and they are the only people held responsible. Italy states the Wehrmacht was “just following orders” like soldiers are supposed to and their loyalty was abused by the criminal Nazis regime. Wehrmacht is immediately rearmed and reorganized to help create a new fascist German state in the south. I was thinking the capital be Vienna. The new republic is run by former Wehrmacht and the old guard who both work together under Italian guidance. Prussian Junkers fleeing from the east adds to this.

Basically, South German state still purge themselves of people like Himmler or extreme racial purist but they get replaced by more moderate or traditional fascist. Maybe a Rommel who flees to Italy after his falling out with Hitler helps lead Italian forces into Germany and he is put into a position of power after the war. Wehrmacht isn’t as extreme or radical as the SS or Nazis but they are still fascist or nationalistic in many ways.

 

[Colonel Zoidberg]

Weimar Germany took two economic bullets, one when they managed to ruin their own country in order not to pay the war reparations, and the other when everyone else did, from 1929 onwards. That seems somewhat difficult to concoct in the 1950s-1960s.

The first one is doable in postwar Germany; there was hyperinflation OTL. The second is a tough sell but some kind of localized economic hardship right after hyperinflation May do the trick.

 

[Byzantion]

Presumably, a sizable Communist threat in the West. The RAF and similar groups were minuscule, actually, and the SPD always staunchly democratic, as well as never majoritary. If you have a significant, sizable, prone to violence movement for Communism-at-any-cost and possibly for reunification-in-the-other-direction, then harsher countermeasures become more likely.

Even SPD chancellor Schmidt discussed discussed such ideas with the conservative opposition in 1977. They suggested to treat any suspected sympathizers as combat faction and to built camps.

 

[Byzantion]

What would it take for West Germany to become an authoritarian state in the same vein as a number of other anti-communist states in the Cold War, like South Korea, Taiwan/ROC, South Vietnam, and others? Liberalization and a turn to democracy is optional.

There Had been many Anti Democrats in the early FRG. Franz-Joseph Strauss for example could be such a figures especially in the 1960es. Allegedly he had ideas to Site US Nuclear weapons If the Chance was given. Also the SPIEGEL-affair showed his Attitude towards the free Press. Also extremly right winged former Nazis like Arnold von Gehlen are to mention. He had been one of the Most high ranking Spy chiefs in Nazi Germany. He built the West German Secret service and was responsible to spy in the opposition. Also in 1966 the German government tried to implement Emergency laws tbat would have allowed authoritarian messures. After massive protest These laws failed.

 

[oberdada]

Even SPD chancellor Schmidt discussed discussed such ideas with the conservative opposition in 1977. They suggested to treat any suspected sympathizers as combat faction and to built camps.

That would have been a huge mistake, Baader wanted to be treated as a combatant after all.

Even if there would have been camps, we are talking about maybe a thousand people here, max. And the constitutional court would have ended it pretty fast.
While it was a grave injustice, putting citizens of Japanese origin in camps did not turn the USA into an autocratic country.

 

[Quintuplicate]

The Western Allies would have to leave Karl Dönitz in charge. This is pretty much a no go.

By 1946 the future 3 party system ( arguably 4 or 5 party system for a while) was pretty much established and state elections were held.
The 1949 constitution is pretty robust by design.

The KPD got 5% in 1949 and went downhill afterwards.

Which were the other 2 parties that got eliminated?

 

[Livius wannabe]

Once the war looks lost Germans rather surrender to the Italians if given a choice.

I see a few problems there:

• potential for a separate peace which would make Italy not a full ally
• dissidents in the Wehrmacht have been all but rooted out at this point OTL
• the madman in Berlin who would rather turn the country into a giant mausoleum instead of surrendering

But that's for a different POD.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

I see a few problems there:

• potential for a separate peace which would make Italy not a full ally
• dissidents in the Wehrmacht have been all but rooted out at this point OTL
• the madman in Berlin who would rather turn the country into a giant mausoleum instead of surrendering

But that's for a different POD.

I was thinking many of the people who had falling outs with Hitler or the SS flee to Italy in the 30s and during the war before Italy enters it. This could be done by them sneaking out somehow or Hitler(before insanity grows to bad) just lets them go there and is happy they are gone. Maybe he thinks exile is smarter option then purging them. Maybe somehow Rommel flees there after issues with Hitler over the Eastern front. By the time the war looks lost to most Germans, Italians are marching in from the south but they are companied by exiled officers and generals. The Italians even let Rommel lead some forces into the country. This could have a huge impact. Italians could be perceived as “liberators” by many Germans in a situation like this especially when the allies are doing pillow bombing(look at images of hamburg bombing) and the Soviets are doing their otl stuff out east. I was thinking Italy joins in mid to late 1943. Isn’t the Wehrmacht not purged completely until 44ish?

Also why would Italy have to be an ally? The allies probably won’t turndown the help and some within ally counties likely would support them hoping they screw the Soviets out of as many gains as possible. Also Italy being seen as a joke by some of the ally powers might help them out here. If Italy joins none of the allies would think they would be able to march into Bavaria and Baden until they actually do it. Italy is likely to have a mix relationship with the west while being hostile with the Soviets. Fear of Soviet expansion is probably the only thing that allows Italy to get away with a lot more stuff especially after the war. After FDR dies, the US could shift to being more friendly with Italy over the Soviets. The only western ally I see being completely against Italy in this is France because I honestly see Mussolini trying to screw them out of anything possible just to insult them and out of ego. I don’t think Mussolini would hesitate to deny France a occupation zone especially if he is denied a place at the Yalta conference. Imagine the hit to French pride when Mussolini mocks them for getting taken over by the Germans while the Italians not just beat the Germans but occupied them(in reality they just got lucky and played sides to get here).

 

[Livius wannabe]

@ModernImperialism
Sorry, there is too much too much wishful thinking and too much off-topic for me to reply to that.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

@ModernImperialism
Sorry, there is too much too much wishful thinking and too much off-topic for me to reply to that.

Sorry I go off on tangents too much. But if you look at the rise of the Nazis and Hitler and the chain of events leading up to that, I wouldn’t say my pod takes too much wishful thinking. People would probably call you insane in 1938 if you told them what will happen to Germany.