Ancient weapon choices: why swords?

This is in length for pikes, I say about 7 ft for line and there would be many lines behind you. I expect that once the lines crashed they would go into an extremely tight formation.




I have used crossbows a lot so I can speak with some experience. The problem with bows it is takes time to build up muscle and it takes some time for a person to get a decent aim. How long would it take for the longbow, I am not sure? I think firing from a horse like a Mongol would take awhile.

Interestingly I think a crossbow would not take very long at all for a reasonably strong man to learn.




https://about-history.com/the-advancement-and-effectiveness-of-the-late-roman-weapons/
Historically crossbows where the everyman's weapon, anyone could use them and kill a knight with them. I will always favor crossbows in fact over bows because to get real good with even modern bows takes far longer than one expects.
 
Do you have any reasoning or evidence for believing so?




Umm... that doesn't speak well of the troopers carrying those lances. At all. Calls the horsemanship of those into question as well, too.

The infantry would certainly never have gotten away with that kind of mishandling of the government's property.

Dreadful as the individual drill obviously was, one must suspect the formation drill and tactics would have been even worse, which given the frequently terrible mishandling of cavalry isn't surprising.

The American Civil War is pretty much a case study in how to do war badly. (With some notable exceptions and with improving competency by late stages.)

Well during the war horses died at a rate of I think 3 to one soldier killed. The US civil war was such a haphazard affair that hell both sides had dozens of different calibers for rifles alone, never mind things like canons.
 
Historically crossbows where the everyman's weapon, anyone could use them and kill a knight with them. I will always favor crossbows in fact over bows because to get real good with even modern bows takes far longer than one expects.
No they weren't. Crossbows were complicated mechanism, only really affordable for burghers etc. with property and means. Many crossbowmen would have had a servant accompanying them on campaign, and were paid more than common footmen.
 
No they weren't. Crossbows were complicated mechanism, only really affordable for burghers etc. with property and means. Many crossbowmen would have had a servant accompanying them on campaign, and were paid more than common footmen.
For campaign, sure. But during a seige i imagine any tools defenders had on hand got a fair bit of use
 

elkarlo

Banned
No, not really, in general, a battle axe is really well balanced and tend to weight less than a similar lenght sword, wood could be more resistant and ligther than most form of pre-industrial iron, and the fact a battle is weigthed in both extremes, in the axe head proper and with a counterbalnce near the handle, making his use as fast a sword, and with more weight in the strike zone that coud mean you do blunt damage even againts a heavily armored oponet,

now if your are thinking ina typical utily axe or woodsman´s axe you are right they are cumberstone and exhausting to use in battle, but they aren´t designated or balanced to be used in battle, but will do in a pinch
Even a weighted axe isn't going to perform like a sword. It's going to be shorter or weighted so that it's harder to parry.
I haven't fought with one tbh. So I can't say from first hand experience.
 

elkarlo

Banned
Historically crossbows where the everyman's weapon, anyone could use them and kill a knight with them. I will always favor crossbows in fact over bows because to get real good with even modern bows takes far longer than one expects.
Plus crossbows, if you crank them ir have the one where you squat it back to reload it, you can have some unreasonable pull rates. Which would mean it could piece armor.
At Malta when running out if powder, they got out the old crossbows. IIRC those bolts would go straight through men.
 
Even a weighted axe isn't going to perform like a sword. It's going to be shorter or weighted so that it's harder to parry.
I haven't fought with one tbh. So I can't say from first hand experience.
Well I do fight with a sword and a axe, and a spear but figthing with a spear trying to not kill your oponnet is fucking difficult, the long of the axe depends completely on the user, but they aren´t that much short than a similiar weight sword, 60-80 cm for an axe 70-90 cm for a sword, and parry with one is the same than with a sword. where the he axe is slower than the sword is on the attack, in the defense and parry they are the same. ,
 

elkarlo

Banned
Well I do fight with a sword and a axe, and a spear but figthing with a spear trying to not kill your oponnet is fucking difficult, the long of the axe depends completely on the user, but they aren´t that much short than a similiar weight sword, 60-80 cm for an axe 70-90 cm for a sword, and parry with one is the same than with a sword. where the he axe is slower than the sword is on the attack, in the defense and parry they are the same. ,
That makes sense. I feel that the sword has the lowest attack as in armor penetration, but it's versatility and speed make up for that. Otherwise why spend the extra money in swords? Besides prestige that is.

I like reenacting and all, but I don't think it's always realistic. As not worrying about dying changes how you fight. Not to mention you wither use padded weapons or hold back with real ones. It's interesting but I wonder how close we are to understating how battles were really fought
 
That makes sense. I feel that the sword has the lowest attack as in armor penetration, but it's versatility and speed make up for that. Otherwise why spend the extra money in swords? Besides prestige that is.

I like reenacting and all, but I don't think it's always realistic. As not worrying about dying changes how you fight. Not to mention you wither use padded weapons or hold back with real ones. It's interesting but I wonder how close we are to understating how battles were really fought

that is true, but is the closest we can come to an undesrtanding on how is to fight with a sword and axe, because the fencing is even more retired than the real deal, plus Our group don´t use padded spears, sword or axes, just blunted one, that is if we sharp one they are 100% functional. that is the reason the spear is so dangerous to use is more difficult to control and with a bad hit you could kill some one.
So bassically what I saying is easier to kill someone with an spear, if you don´t know how to use one, than with a sword or axe
 
To go back to the original post there are a number of other issues.

Its not necessarily cheaper to have an axe or mace. Depends on how easy it is to get and work wood and how well the carpenter and blacksmith get on. Once you have reasonably common iron working the labour cost will dominate rather than the metal cost.

A sword can be used defensively more easily than an axe or mace and swords have points so you can cut and thrust not just cut.

A sword is a convenient display of wealth and power that can comfortably be worn perambulating around town, and used as a slicing, clubbing weapon or simply adding heft to the backhander if you don't get out of the way peasant, all the cool kids have swords.
 
To go back to the original post there are a number of other issues.

Its not necessarily cheaper to have an axe or mace. Depends on how easy it is to get and work wood and how well the carpenter and blacksmith get on. Once you have reasonably common iron working the labour cost will dominate rather than the metal cost.
For most of the history it was cheaper an axe than a sword, as you, in the worst case scenario could do an axe with worse quality iron, bog iron, wrought iron, pig iron, heck even cooper with only the edge of temperedd iron or steel like this axe head found in iceland The copper head has an iron cutting bit, now heavily eroded.

bronze_axe.jpg

for a sword you need that all the piece was done in a higher quality iron or tempered iron, unless you use the folding technique and a diferential heat tretment, like the japanese, wich is tehcnically dificult and drive up the cost

A sword can be used defensively more easily than an axe or mace and swords have points so you can cut and thrust not just cut.
Only in a "civil" context, is easier to use a sword, where is used in self defense and probalby against light armoured opponets, in a battlefield context most of the sword advantages are a moot point, so most of the time a sword is more useful, most people spend very little time in battle

A sword is a convenient display of wealth and power that can comfortably be worn perambulating around town, and used as a slicing, clubbing weapon or simply adding heft to the backhander if you don't get out of the way peasant, all the cool kids have swords.
In this I completly agree with you

Edit: some mistakes
 
Last edited:
No they weren't. Crossbows were complicated mechanism, only really affordable for burghers etc. with property and means. Many crossbowmen would have had a servant accompanying them on campaign, and were paid more than common footmen.

There were very expensive and complex pieces of equipment and often a crossbowman had a loader, he is not a servant necessarily as such.


Plus crossbows, if you crank them ir have the one where you squat it back to reload it, you can have some unreasonable pull rates. Which would mean it could piece armor.
At Malta when running out if powder, they got out the old crossbows. IIRC those bolts would go straight through men.

The need to squat depends on what sort of a crossbow you have, but yes if you want to go through armor you are going to need to swat or have you a loader, which makes each crossbowman a two-man team.



For most of the history it was cheaper an axe than a sword, as you, in the worst case scenario could do an axe with worse quality iron, bog iron, wrought iron, pig iron, heck even cooper with only the edge of templed iron or steel like this axe head found in iceland The head has an iron cutting bit, now heavily eroded.

bronze_axe.jpg

As well as that often ancient armies marched out, manned by farmers armed with little more than their tools, axes are something a farmer is more likely to have then swords.
 
No they weren't. Crossbows were complicated mechanism, only really affordable for burghers etc. with property and means. Many crossbowmen would have had a servant accompanying them on campaign, and were paid more than common footmen.
I meant that anyone could have used it. I get that they were expensive and fragile so obviously not everyone could have one. But the training to do so took what two weeks? Bow and arrows years?
 
But the training to do so took what two weeks? Bow and arrows years?
Thats less to do with skill and with developing the muscles to use a heavy poundage bow. A problem that crossbows had to overcome with mechanical assistance because effective ones are more than a person can draw back
 
I meant that anyone could have used it. I get that they were expensive and fragile so obviously not everyone could have one. But the training to do so took what two weeks? Bow and arrows years?

I can speak from personal experience about crossbows that the first I time, I used it I hurt my back pretty bad from misuse. It was about a month before I tried again and in a few hours, I had mastered my crossbow and shooting 5 to 6 bolts a minute quite accurately while running and ducking as a soldier would.

This was totally with no tutoring!
 
I can speak from personal experience about crossbows that the first I time, I used it I hurt my back pretty bad from misuse. It was about a month before I tried again and in a few hours, I had mastered my crossbow and shooting 5 to 6 bolts a minute quite accurately while running and ducking as a soldier would.

This was totally with no tutoring!
A modern crossbow I assume, because I hit a bull's eye on my first try with a modern compound bow. Also it was my one and only time I ever shot a bow and well you hit out of the park as the saying goes....
 
Modern crossbows are different in many important ways from those of the Middle Ages. Old style crossbows had to be recocked by cranking with a built in device, attaching a crank device to cock (then load bolt), or they had a stirrup on the end so you could use a foot there and both hands to pull it back. No matter what crossbows had a much lower rate of fire than the longbow, although training for the former was way less. The pull on a crossbow you use for hunting now is much less than the pull on one deigned to penetrate armor, and the bolt for bringing down a deer is much lighter than one designed to bring down an armored knight. Also modern materials make crossbows much lighter and easier to use.

It is important to note that pole arms, pikes, etc were designed primarily for infantry to use against cavalry - pike formations could and would engage other infantry but they were most useful against cavalry as pikemen who stand firm should win against a cavalry charge, break formation and you die. Many polearms were specific for pulling horsemen (armored or other) off their horse.
 
Old style crossbows had to be recocked by cranking with a built in device, attaching a crank device to cock (then load bolt), or they had a stirrup on the end so you could use a foot there and both hands to pull it back. No matter what crossbows had a much lower rate of fire than the longbow, .

Actually, there are about eight different methods the medieval crossbows used for cocking, all with their pluses and minuses. Some of the lighter crossbows would be comparable to bows in rates of fire.

You may also want to check on the Chinese repeating crossbow for fire rates.

It certainly though is a trade-off with a crossbow on power and rate of fire.
 

Zen9

Banned
The varieties of Halberd were very popular with armies. For the metal equal to a small sword or axe you got a instrument combining the functions of axe, spear and hook on a long pole.
Depictions of European and Oriental armies show formations bristling with them, often outnumbering all other weapons.

The Welsh taught the English the value of the Longbow and then the English did what we used to do well....apply the solution in industrial quantities supported by soundly administered logistics and training.
The results, to paraphrase a Spaniard were horror.
Which takes me to the brutal modern point.
Training and logistics were our secret sauce and gave us victory after victory.
Now we are loosing this core of the Alfredian state.
So now we will loose.
And loosing will cost us everything.

So in context, it's not the sword that wins or looses. Not the quality of the weapon or it's manufacture.
It's the quality of the training and logistics, and greatest of all is logistics. For logistics is king, logistics is God.
 
Top