WI America “Discovered” via the North

What if Columbus doesn’t get support for his expedition west in the 1490’s, but someone else gets support that decade to sail west along the North Atlantic?

From an earlier discussion:
At any rate, what happens if Columbus doesn't sail, and a different kingdom (say England) gives a different explorer the backing to sail west along the northern Atlantic (a la Cabot)? How successful are these first expeditions, in terms of getting the lay of the land, of setting up settlements, etc? What is the economic potential of the northeast (Newfoundland, the St Lawrence valley, etc) compared with that of the Caribbean? If they're based on trade of things like furs and timber (and just looking to get a foothold to sail further), are the representatives of Europe less exploitative/enslaving-genocidal of the native nations? And given this dynamic, how does European exploration of the Americas go down?
This is about what I'm thinking too; it won't be super-profitable for the Europeans at first, so the going will be slower, but it will be beneficial enough to maintain a presence in the area, with friendlier (or "friendlier") relations. If the first voyage does make it to Nova Scotia, that means the Wabanaki Confederacy (who have allied tribes as far south as most of OTL Maine) will be major partners, or victims, or both. Meanwhile, I would be surprised if they've even made it as far as the southern tip of Flordia within the first decade, meaning not only do they still think the route to Asia is just around the corner (unlike OTL, where Amerigo figured out the size of the landmass in 1502) but the Caribbean remains un-ravaged, with the Europeans barely aware of their existence, much less how to make them profitable. Oh, and the great civilizations of the Mississippi, Mesoamerica, and what not, have yet still to make contact with these Europeans.
 
What if Columbus doesn’t get support for his expedition west in the 1490’s, but someone else gets support that decade to sail west along the North Atlantic?

From an earlier discussion:

They would keep exploring until they find the Caribbean and Mexico. From a 16th century pov, temperate northern America was but leftover scraps compared to the main course that was Spanish America. The best get rich quick scheme was to conquer exploit the labor of populous civilizations like the Aztecs and Incas with highly developed agriculture and rich mines. The Caribbean also had very large populations and resources.

All the fur and lumber of New France amounted to less economic value than Haiti.
 
@Richard V Then again, Europe doesn’t even know about these places until it finds them; I would think, to the extent they do keep exploring, it will initially be focused on getting “around” this new land to continue west to Asia.

This does mean they (still) run into Mesoamerica, and subsequently become very interested in the precious metals there; but what’s interesting here is that, if they’re sailing west from Florida, there’s far less incentive to take any interest in the Carribean, at least for the short term.
 
Eleventh century Vikings made it to the New World. But there was so little record that L'Anse Aux Meadows was not discovered until the sixties. Having settled Iceland and Greenland to harvest fish, birds and sea mammals, we can probably assume they would have continued down the North American coast if they didn't encounter resistance from hostile native Americans. Allow one wave of Vikings infect the natives with diseases and the next wave encounters less resistance.
 
That PoD is too late. Not much would change in that case. Northern Europeans would discover North America. Not many people will care. And when there is a reason to care, the Iberians would just send a expedition across the Atlantic to the Caribbean, cause the technology is already advanced enough to accomplish that by then.

The North Sea route can be used anytime from 1000 to 1400. A resurgent North Sea Empire strikes me as the best candidate that would have both the motivation and resources to create colonies during that time period. They would probably try to completely lock down the sea route and deny any aid to other colonizers who aren't them, if they weren't hostile to such attempts on principle. This means that eventually other Europeans would just cross the Atlantic themselves, just to cut out the middlemen.

Regardless of the PoD, the result is the same. The other European States give up on the North Sea route and just cross the Atlantic.
 
That PoD is too late. Not much would change in that case. Northern Europeans would discover North America. Not many people will care. And when there is a reason to care, the Iberians would just send a expedition across the Atlantic to the Caribbean, cause the technology is already advanced enough to accomplish that by then...

Regardless of the PoD, the result is the same. The other European States give up on the North Sea route and just cross the Atlantic.
Well sure, but they wouldn't be sending an expedition across the mid part of the Atlantic until they knew there was something to find; nobody's mistakening the West Indies for the East Indies here. Plus, whatever European power decides to get in on this is sending these expeditions earlier and under somebody other than Columbus, and is likely seeing the Carib mainly as a pit stop en route to Mesoamerica (and possibly Asia), at least at first. This is all is a pretty notable change in its own right, no?

Would anyone disagree with this much?
 
A fortuitous question, Johnny P.! I wrote some of my (rambling) thoughts on a French 'discovery' recently.

To save my poor fingers, longish quote below.

Alright then, I'll give it a go. This is going to be a long, rambling ride through my thoughts, so be prepared.

France in the late 1400s is in many ways unique in Europe. It is at the time one of the most populated areas in Europe--13 million in 1483 according to Wikipedia--and has just come off of the war that arguably created French national identity (the Hundred Years' War, if you're not familiar). On the face of it, 1400s France is a very successful state, with a well-developed military culture, a strong economy, and a powerful demographic weight. However, this belies the far more complex truth of the matter.

Historically, France has been one of the least centralized states in Europe--not something we often associate with France given the Ancien Régime, but it must be understood that said system emerged directly as a result of its medieval history. During the Norman Conquest, for instance, the crown was so weak that the great princes who controlled the various duchies often treated with foreign powers on their own and more or less ignored the Capets. While this had changed somewhat by the late 1400s, due to the centralization necessary for the Hundred Years' War, the nobility was still very strong and very influential. To compound this, the church controlled some 40% of French property (seriously) and often collaborated with the nobility against royal policies in order to preserve its traditional power.

At the same time, you have a peasantry that is greatly different from the idea of the feudal serf. While serfdom did exist at the time, it was far less strict than in other areas, meaning that peasants were not as tied to the land; indeed, social mobility often depended on geographic mobility, and many peasants rose to become the influential guildmasters and merchants that formed France's economic core precisely through moving and trading.

In a sense, you have two economic and social worlds existing in unspoken tension; the traditional, feudal, authoritarian world of the nobility and the church, and the burgeoning proto-capitalism of the townships, which often ruled themselves. Sitting atop both of these is a crown that, while more powerful than it has been in previous centuries, is still reliant heavily reliant on the nobility and the church to get anything done.

So. Let us then say that someone in French employ--perhaps even Columbus himself, if foisted off by the Spaniards--discovers the Americas in the 1490s (let's say 1495 to take into account delays due to the Spanish rejection). While it's possible that this explorer ends up in the same place as Columbus did IOTL, I find the odds to be vanishingly small and boringly convergent. So let us say instead that alt-Columbus lands on the northern part of the OTL Eastern Seaboard, somewhere a bit north of Manhattan in OTL Connecticut on the Long Island Sound. What, then, are the values of this new land to the French? No sugar, no spice, not all that much nice. Not a whole lot of gold to be sure.

But the-land-that-would-never-be-Connecticut holds great value in reality, due of course to fur. Fur was ridiculously plentiful in the early days of colonialism, and the Long Island Sound is a perfect place to profit off of it. Moreover, the timber found there is of great strategic value to a future French navy, and of course it is decent, though not great, land for tobacco cultivation when that is discovered.

I figure that most likely, the Crown uses this as an opportunity to gain advantage over its subjects and thus establish an alt-Ancien Régime about a hundred years ahead of schedule. Most likely a form of colonial company similar to OTL is formed, with hunters and trappers in service to the crown travelling to the New World (not sure on what it'd be called by Europeans in this ATL, perhaps Colombie or something similar) and bringing back furs. Over time, it's likely that these fellows would make contact with native groups and tap into the continental trade networks (which likely collapse and then quickly reform as per OTL due to plague), gaining access to gold and tobacco from the south, and even possibly maple sugar/syrup from the north. It's likely that there are some settlements made here and there, but these I expect would develop largely as trade hubs rather than areas of heavy settlement and control. There's likely to be a military presence, but I would expect the French to be a LOT less heavy-handed than the Spanish. No conquistadors here most likely.

Let's assume, then, that France more or less has the Americas to itself for the first, oh, five decades or so, with other powers tentatively exploring and making contact (likely the British are among the first). The monarchy thus gains an economic and thus a military and political advantage over its enemies, and is most likely heavily invested in using this. What does the crown do with its new wealth? Well, first of all, the "beautiful 16th century" (in reality 1475 to 1630) is probably magnified even further. Wealth from the New World will inevitably trickle into the townships, likely granting them even more power early on, and an increased reliance on merchants and traders for the stability of the French state. The nobility likely weakens as a result; we may see widespread discontent in the form of civil war, which the nobility probably loses given new wealth. With the rise of townships in wealth, there is probably a corresponding rise in urban population, further weakening both the church and the nobility.

Ah, but it's foreign relations that everyone is interested in, no? In this arena, I figure a more successful Italian Wars on the part of the French, given, again, the influx of wealth. A French Milan is certainly possible, and perhaps even further (French Sicily, anyone?). Brittany is almost certainly incorporated earlier, given Nantes' immense value as a westward port. If indeed there is a Reformation, which there is likely to be given the longstanding institutional corruption in the Catholic Church, it likely goes worse for the Protestants, given that ITTL, France has no reason to side with them (by which I mean side with the German Protestants, certainly not the Huguenots) given its strengthened position, and may in fact be on the opposing side, which would mean French gains in the HRE. We may even see a reversal of the French + Protestant states vs. Catholic League dichotomy that emerged at certain points, with Spain using the Reformation as an opportunity to weaken France. Protestant on Catholic civil strife may occur as per IOTL, but I figure the Catholics win even harder than OTL as long as the Protestants don't actually convert the monarchy (which is more possible than you might think).

With that being said, none of this actually talks about the Americas, SO most likely in the mid-1500s, other powers begin to establish claims in Columbie, likely Britain and Spain first. Are there bush fights over this, as per IOTL between the French and Britain? Oh yeah. I can see burning trading posts, short and bitter wars which threaten to become larger conflicts, the usual. However, with the 'model' of colonialism being trade-based, I doubt we see many settler colonies. Even Spain, most likely, does not conquer the Aztecs or Tawantinsuyu, given that as far as they know, that's unfeasible without the model of Cortez. Keep in mind that conquistador colonialism evolved purely from the luck of Cortez. There are certainly settlements and communities in the New World; likely the Caribbean as per OTL becomes heavily populated by European settlements, given the low population of natives and the effects of plague, which will unfortunately probably wipe out Caribbean groups almost entirely, against as per OTL. But on the mainland? Most likely trade hubs and allied native nations, which is the more interesting point here.

With conflict emerging over trade, we (first of all) will see the development of a French navy, probably using NAmerican timber. We will also almost certainly see a patronage-based relationship with native nations, as various powers ally themselves with the Mohawk or what have you in order to use them essentially as auxiliaries against their enemies; in exchange for the normal trade goods, and of course, weapons. I figure European technology filters in slowly through these avenues, and we see native nations far away from the Europeans (and thus far away from the likely constant low-level conflict over trade) developing and consolidating against more technologically primitive and thus unlucky groups. I wouldn't be surprised if we see the emergence of a strong power in Mexico and among the Cherokee and similar groups in the southern *United States. Over time, it's likely that these powers will demand a more equitable relationship, which may in and of itself lead to war.

What would the future look like after this? I'm not sure. But these are my disconnected, rambling thoughts on the matter. Pass down your judgment with mercy, O Great Caesar. :p
 
Well sure, but they wouldn't be sending an expedition across the mid part of the Atlantic until they knew there was something to find; nobody's mistakening the West Indies for the East Indies here. Plus, whatever European power decides to get in on this is sending these expeditions earlier and under somebody other than Columbus, and is likely seeing the Carib mainly as a pit stop en route to Mesoamerica (and possibly Asia), at least at first. This is all is a pretty notable change in its own right, no?

Would anyone disagree with this much?
I would certainly agree that another discovery from the North would not lead to quick expansion. Newfoundland etc. are not very promising. If anything, they are discouraging, indicating that, yes, wherever you sail around in the Northern waters, there is just more of the kind of lands we already know from Eurasia (Iceland, the Arctic Coast of *Russia etc.). Great fish, but nothing else to want there.

The big question is if this would really discourage people to look for a Westward passage to India/China. Now, we all know that Columbus simply had his calculations wrong, so probably we don't need any serious discouragement at all if we have decreed Columbus away.

The interesting question here is HOW further exploration is going to go - that it goes slower than IOTL we can assume as a given.
And again, I would say that we should free our minds from OTL suggestions: who is to say that expansion is proceeding Southwards from, say, Newfoundland?
Yes, more developed and wealthier people live further South, but those who arrive in Newfoundland do not know that.
Yes, it's warmer and more fertile lands lie down South, but who is to say that those who arrive in Newfoundland are looking for that? They're not pre-programmed to scout for places where a massive English colonization scheme can occur. They're driven by whatever has led them here.
If they're looking for more seals, for example, it may well make a lot of sense for them to proceed Westward along the Labrador Coast, which would then end them (and could well trap expeditions for a while) in Hudson Bay.

As for relations with the indigenous, the first analogy I'd look for is the interaction between Russian Pomors and the coastal indigenous people of what is today the Indigenous People of Russia's Far North.
 
The interesting question here is HOW further exploration is going to go - that it goes slower than IOTL we can assume as a given.

And again, I would say that we should free our minds from OTL suggestions: who is to say that expansion is proceeding Southwards from, say, Newfoundland?

Yes, more developed and wealthier people live further South, but those who arrive in Newfoundland do not know that.

Yes, it's warmer and more fertile lands lie down South, but who is to say that those who arrive in Newfoundland are looking for that? They're not pre-programmed to scout for places where a massive English colonization scheme can occur. They're driven by whatever has led them here.
If they're looking for more seals, for example, it may well make a lot of sense for them to proceed Westward along the Labrador Coast, which would then end them (and could well trap expeditions for a while) in Hudson Bay.
Well, what would most intrigue them longer term is a path westward; in that respect, south makes more sense than north, since in this respect they're just looking for a way around the "island" they found. So the question from there is, how long does it take them to find the southern tip of Florida, and where do they go from there?

Now that said, if they do land as far north as Newfoundland, it could also be they explore the St Lawrence River before any of this, and that would change things as well.
 
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