WELCOME BACK!!!
been waiting for this for a while, will write proper comment when I finish reading this wonderful new update.
Alright, now that I've read this, it seems the Spanish have played the game almost perfectly in the east, with the only exception being, as you said China. I however don't think its going to matter that much.
With the thousands of additional men coming from the Castilian part of all Spain, along with all the silver they can get their hands on, the Portuguese have the opportunity here to really create dominant system in this part of Asia. First of all they now have the strength to physically fight almost anyone around, with the only exception being the strongest states there, such as Brunei, and obviously china. And with extra cash, there's a hidden advantage. They can drop the inflation bomb on china and other states in the area, instead of just on their own heads. Obviously as much silver and gold as possible should be used to develop Spain. But obviously there's a limit to this. Once everyone is already working well, the only thing that you can do with the extra cash is to pay people more, which might sound great at first, until it utterly cripples your manufacturing base. Luckily the developing economic knowledge in Spain should be able to catch onto this, allowing them to escape the worst of it.
While it may be questionable, it will probably be beneficial to create economic and political chaos in the east. In that situation the Spanish have their best shot to truly make gains. Imagine the mid 1600s, china in throes of civil war as the Ming collapse and the Qing rise, and instead of the weak Portuguese and the newcomer dutch, too busy fighting each other to interfere, there's a strong united Spanish presence, which has reached an accommodation with the other Europeans, and is bolstered by millions of Catholics in the indies and japan. Now that's a force that just couldn't resist getting involved. Intense Asian hi-jinks ensue.
In lighter news, I think i can speak for most of the viewership in saying that samurai mercenaries fighting the protestants in Europe for the Spanish is the most epic thing this thread lacks. this update brings that glorious situation one step closer to reality. Also I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about the demographic impact these changes would have on Spain, and i'm curious if anyone cares to hear.
You're right about China, somehow the Portuguese have gotten off even worse than IOTL concerning the situation with the Ming.
You're also right on the money about everything else. What a more powerful Spanish empire/Iberian Union (and also friendlier Dutch and English) means for Asia is that, unlike IOTL, the Spanish/Portuguese will be allowed much greater freedom in choosing which territories and allies they get to hold on to when the other European nations inevitably arrive/certain Asian nations catch up technologically and Spain enters a period of relative decline. Hyperinflation will also inevitably hit Spain, albeit much less disastrously than IOTL.
Your comment reminds me of Diego de Artieda's plan (started in 1573, when the Spanish had just barely finished the conquest of Luzon) to invade and conquer China. Artieda thought this could be accomplished with several thousand men from Spain and several thousand Japanese mercenaries, and - mind-bogglingly - his plan had the full support of just about every Spanish authority (both clerical and secular) in the Philippines. Luckily, such a horrifically shortsighted venture was rejected almost immediately back in Madrid, although this had more to do with Spain having its hands full already in Europe and the Mediterranean. I wonder if this plan would have been given approval in TTL's circumstances, and if the shogun and Spanish authorities could cooperate on it? Seems fairly likely that - especially with the wokou and Portuguese fleets largely working together - there will be a significant number of raids on or even full-scale annexation attempts of Chinese ports/islands. Without spoiling too much, expect to see something of the like occur around the Pearl River Delta/Hainan/Taiwan/Leizhou Peninsula/coastal Fujian/coastal Guangxi.
I also learned recently that the OTL Spanish and Portuguese did hire Japanese mercenaries quite regularly and in fairly large numbers, so I imagine that trend will only be amplified ITTL
It lives.
And perhaps a Christian Japan (or maybe one with a significant presence) could still emerge. (Probably took the blood sacrifice of Switzerland to achieve this
)
¡Vive!
Right now, the biggest obstacle to making a Christian Japan (not that I'm necessarily going to) is both making such a development believable and making the aftermath equally believable. I have only the slightest idea what a Japan with a large Christian minority would look like and what effect it would have on national unification, foreign policy, or domestic culture (Christian and European culture and ways of thought will still manage to seep into the non-Christian sections of society in some way), and I have even less of an idea how the same issues would be in a majority (or at least plurality) Catholic Japan - for instance, does the imperial office transform or is it abolished outright and replaced with a military dictatorship/elective monarchy?
Discussion on this is VERY much welcome in this thread, if anyone is willing to offer information or just float ideas.
Very glad to see this back!
PS. You might want to update the "Different Placenames" threadmark
Thanks! And thank you for reminding me!
It needs footnotes too...
Given this, plus the Christianization of large parts of Japan, I wonder if a Japantown is going to form in Manila?
At this rate, TTL's Manila will BE a Japantown in all but name.
I really enjoyed the Castillion "back door,"
Those Castilians enjoy taking the back door, don't they?
The real question will be if there is a japantown in lisbon
Or a
Lisboinha in Osaka
I'm really glad to see this awesome timeline is still going!
Interesting to see Oda Nobunaga surviving an extra 11 years as that will have a pretty big impact on the unification, centralization, and Christianization of Japan going forward.
Thank you
I'm glad you picked that up - I had known Nobunaga was more partial to the Jesuits than he was to the Buddhists, but I only just recently learned what intense hatred he had for Buddhism. While this may not save Catholics ITTL from being suspicious to the Japanese authorities on political grounds, it certainly offers them a much longer safeguard than IOTL from those who oppose them on spiritual grounds.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Portuguese or Spanish recruit Japanese Christian settlers for their colonies, the ocean currents lead straight from Japan to California (or Kariforniya in Japanese I'd assume) after all.
Quality > Quantity, welcome back
@Torbald !
Having read the reports of Portuguese traders and Jesuits in regards to the Japanese, I must say I'm surprised at how they considered the Japanese their equals, even to the point of kinship (classifying the Japanese as "whites"). Likewise, the Japanese were the only Asian population that the Jesuits fully accepted into its own ranks, and a native clergy in Japan was considered the Jesuit mission's top priorities. Needless to say, if they believe the Japanese are worthy of the priesthood as in OTL, there's no reason to suspect they won't consider them acceptable settlers in the colonies too ITTL.
And thank you
Great chapter...the wait definitively was worth!
I think that the Philippines would be more important Crossway and not only commercial, but cultural and religious first because would be very tinned linked to the rest of the Portuguese islands and mainly with the Portuguese India besides that these unexpected Japanese Ronin/pirates that settled in there I think that would will play a bigger role not only in the Philippines but also not only as important links with the Japanese islands but eventually for the Spanish empire.
I guess that perhaps if wouldn't be butterflied the Japanese unification/centralization would lead as OTL to expansion attempts.
Though if the Cristianizacion it's successful and become at least in one of Empire main religions alongside with the Buddhism the besides to be more integrated and relations both commercial, political and mainly culturally with the Spanish/Portuguese empire that would mean to individual level for the European empire source to recruit soldiers/settlers as in the Philippines 'model' or even as Monks/Missioners.
At 'estate' level this would imply that besides that their Christianity would play a big role in their foreign relations both with Europa as with their neighbors and guess that would be key to the possibility to make alliances.
Also would be possible that to some Japanese Daimyo would be proposed or even asked (perhaps by some traders) to participate in some joint Japanese/Spanish/Portuguese 'expedition'.
Thank you
Manila is an incredibly important locale for East Asian trade, and I wonder if the Portuguese/Spanish will even bother with trying to secure something like Macau ITTL if they have Manila, at least for the time being...
I also wonder if the Japanese influence might be as great or even greater on the Philippines than IOTL given Japan's greater proximity to the isles and their much higher population compared to Spain. So long as Spain is master of the seas (or at least the East Asian seas) then that's up to the Spanish, but there will probably still be many thousands that slip through the cracks and Japan-ify the Spanish East Asian colonies.
Things getting interesting in Asia huh.
I have to say the Portuguese will be introducing more than just
tempura and arquebuses to Japan TTL...
Expect there to be plenty of family-oriented animes about Iesu Kirisuto ITTL's modern day
Woot glad to see you back and with a wonderful update. It’ll be interesting to see how Catholicism develop ITTL compared to oTL. Moreover the possibility of the Emperor converting opens up an interesting amount of possibility's. Definitely continue
Thanks!
Regarding the conversion of the Japanese emperor, that might be an interesting bid to save his position in the country. With the shogunate consolidating and heading for unification, the emperor might renounce his semi-divinity (and replace it with the divine right of kingship, obviously) and convert to Christianity provided the shogun is anti-Christian and the Christian minority in Japan is large or powerful enough. The daimyos of the Sengoku period had a notorious level of disregard for the emperor, sometimes even treating him in a downright insulting manner and also directly disobeying/shooting down his edicts. It's a long shot, but an interesting one to be sure.
Chances are you will be seeing Japanese everywhere ITTL because that happened IOTL despite Japan being closed off so there gotta tons more of them.
That's another good point, especially considering how maritime the culture is. As a series of islands, Japan will also naturally be feeling the consequent population pressure, which means there will be a constant push outwards of varying size.
If it means donburi stalls and oden carts in the major cities of Europe, so be it!
I dont know what the history of ramen is in europe but we nees some portuguese to bring back some "Japon Spagetti" back as well. I love cultural exchanges
I can just imagine TTL's modern day Spanish teenagers on the streets of Lisbon going out to eat at
Tempura - a Japanese-style street-food chain owned and operated by the Quirixima family - at the insistence of their Miguelino friend, who grew up eating it in Celudão...
And now I'm hungry
