The Footprint of Mussolini - TL

[lukedalton]

I was thinking of the same possibility, is pretty probable if else because OTL Italy is still a country weighting on the right, even today, hence able to holding the fascist system - maybe under the facade of an authoritarian democracy (see: Russia), without the need to pass through traumatic passages.

The 'problem' is Benny that, by design, surround himself of idiot that depend on him for their power and usually don't found their own ass even with a map...once he kick the bucket, the only two choice are Balbo and Ciano but even them will be 'forced' towards a much more collegial decision making.
Also better remeber that fascist Italy while a dictatorships was not a totalitarian regime (even if Benny desired), there are already some other political voice...and more importantly much depend on how Abyssinia is dealt, that open wound can become the Angola of Italy and the cause of the downfall of the regime.

If the African situation is dealt, well a somewhat genuine authoritarian democracy can develop and i agree with Ryudrago, Italy has always been a generally conservative nation and ITTL Fascist legacy has been very good for the nation

 

[Evil Crusader]

what with Vatican 2 coming along depriving the Facists of Church Support

TTL, there will be definitely less pressure on the Catholic Church; Franco and Mussolini being very strong supporters of the status quo. I don't really see Vatican II happening, and if It happens it'll quickly ratificate the conservative documents that were rejected OTL.

 

[Herr Frage]

TTL, there will be definitely less pressure on the Catholic Church; Franco and Mussolini being very strong supporters of the status quo. I don't really see Vatican II happening, and if It happens it'll quickly ratificate the conservative documents that were rejected OTL.

Mussolini may not be alive then, and who knows what will happen with the FB being closely allied with the West? That ball is still up in the air.

 

[Sorairo]

So what is the displaced Jewish population doing at this point?

The Otto section seemed to indicate some of the Hungarian Jewish population had returned Post War.

And the Zionists of course are pursuing their grand ambition. But what of the people in this period?

The Jewish Army has by now seen the ruins of Hungary and see that their old homes and communities have been flattened. A fair few have already decided to make the trip to reunite with family in Libya. Zionism absolutely dominates Jewish political discussion and Mussolini has already voiced his support for such a measure as he is interested in creating an ally. Otto supports it too, though mostly out of gratitude for the Jewish Army having been so ready to support his claim to the Hungarian throne.

Wingate is currently lobbying London right now to grant the Zionists everything they want, but there's tension over Zvi Brenner's Trial between Tel Aviv and London. Churchill is richly sympathetic to the Zionists but doesn't want to totally screw Britain's standing with the Arab powers since they need all the help they can get against Communism. Stalin has already publicaly denounced the idea of an Israel and is ready to veto any measure at the fledgling UN that would support Israel's existence as a state. The Arab powers are quite happy to have such a big time backer and are confident that with Soviet support they could 'drive the Jews into the sea'. Stalin is in fact so confident of this that he is not all that restrictive of Jewish emigration, believing they face only obliteration in Israel after the Arabs are through with them.

Already, Hungarian Jews are going to Israel to train locals for the coming conflict. The British are fine with this, and the local Arabs are getting angrier...

Also, a quick update of the status of a bunch of other people ITTL:

Patton is currently in self-imposed exile in California. He shuns the press, stares at pictures and medals all day and feels an aching sense that the world doesn't need him anymore.

Rommel is trying to live a quiet life, knowing that the German army is through as an effective force. He's gotten offers to be Chancellor, even Kaiser, but is uninterested in politics. Then a rather strange request comes through the mail from someone he met back in the surrender at Berlin ...

Mao is already purging the heck out of northern China while Chiang tries to bribe every warlord he can in the south. Already, its becoming pretty clear that this 'Coalition Government' is on shaky ground.

De Gaulle has become one of the most divisive figures in France. His removal of Communists from the ruling Coalition and the subsequent harsh reaction to Communist strikes throughout the period have led to accusations he himself is a Fascist (a charge he takes with anger). He is thankful that the Communist's tactics of insurrection have seriously hurt them in the polls and they've began to relent.

Ho Chi Minh is facing the fight of his life in Vietnam. The French are well positioned and in no mood to talk. That said, they continue to receive both political support and minor covert financial support from the United States. Ho feels his admiration of America was well rewarded.

Churchill has the headache of India to deal with. He has promised the Congress that India would get Dominion status immediately, with Labour still demanding full independence, as does most of India.

 

[President Earl Warren]

TTL, there will be definitely less pressure on the Catholic Church; Franco and Mussolini being very strong supporters of the status quo. I don't really see Vatican II happening, and if It happens it'll quickly ratificate the conservative documents that were rejected OTL.

Mussolini and Franco don’t run the Church, they may have abit of influence among the Mediterainian clerics but that asssociation could also hurt the Conservative cause as the American and Non Facist Free World Cardinals would harden in opposition. I think at least a Democratic declaration would come in fourthwith

 

[thanix01]

Honestly I feel like most western democratic country except America (and that will change soon) main concern is the communist.

It think it might be hard for leader of “free world” to condemn fascism since they are currently their ally.

Now after the fall of soviet (if it happen)... Things could get interesting.

 

[Evil Crusader]

Mussolini and Franco don’t run the Church, they may have abit of influence among the Mediterainian clerics but that asssociation could also hurt the Conservative cause as the American and Non Facist Free World Cardinals would harden in opposition. I think at least a Democratic declaration would come in fourthwith

Pre-Vatican II, the Church's top echelons were chock full of Europeans - the first US Cardinal was only created in 1875. They won't take orders from Mussolini, but they'll definitely support their status quo wholly. With the US in the apparent hands of the Communists, even more so.

EDIT: as a frame of reference, the 1939 Conclave had 55 European Cardinals out of 62, 35 of whom were Italians; at least 41 of them will come from nations aligned with the TTL Roman Alliance.

 

[thorr97]

I'm thinking that lots of things are gonna change real soon and real fast.

Stalin is both outraged and overconfident so he'll be to overplaying his hand in the USSR and Europe. His renewed purges will most likely go too far.

Wallace is doomed. He's pushed things too far himself and the backlash is going to be catastrophic for both the Democrats and the Communists.

Patton's coming election in '48 will unleash a rooting out of the Communists in the US that we could only have dreamed of in OTL.

It'd be fitting if, years later and once confronted with the uncovered evidence of how thoroughly the Soviets played him for the fool, Wallace echoes his OTL contrition in this ATL.

 

[Herr Frage]

Thank you for the response.

Patton is currently in self-imposed exile in California. He shuns the press, stares at pictures and medals all day and feels an aching sense that the world doesn't need him anymore.

I see. I can imagine such scenes for his movie. But the people I think disagree about it being his time to fade away.

Rommel is trying to live a quiet life, knowing that the German army is through as an effective force. He's gotten offers to be Chancellor, even Kaiser, but is uninterested in politics. Then a rather strange request comes through the mail from someone he met back in the surrender at Berlin ...

Patton was my first thought, but he has been touched on. The Prince perhaps? Mussolini offering him a posting?

Excited to find out who is reaching out to the fox.

 

[thanix01]

This song could be modified with some lyric change and it could fit the situation quite well.

I mean in this timeline it could be use to call out western democratic nations that willingly cooperate with authoritarian fascist country.

 

[hijoton]

Excellent thread. Well researched job and a tip of the hat to @Sorairo and the collaborators on this magnificent TL.

Rommel offered the post of Kaiser?
Would be interesting to say the least. Patton running for US presidency and Rommel Kaiser on Germany.

 

[AK47Productions]

A plausible Kaiser Rommel scenario would only skyrocket this TL's chances for a Turtledove in the future. In my eyes at least.

Regardless I'm fully enjoying the TL already. I'm a sucker for unique regime survivals.

 

[Herr Frage]

Well Rommel has already turned the role of Kaiser down.

Hmm, could it be DeGaulle recruiting him for the Foreign Legion?

At the rate things are going I am wondering if Patton will be the one to run for President against Wallace. I am thinking now Patton may run against the next President to end the McCarthy era. General Patton being a man the right wing backlash can't touch, with Patton's pledge being go end the radicalism.

Because for the next election it seems so in the bag for the Republicans i think they would not need to pull in an outsider like Patton to win, and he may not want to throw his hat in. But if Patton feels both parties have betrayed America? I could see him being convinced then that he is the man needed in the White House.

 

[Dolan]

But if Patton feels both parties have betrayed America?

Wait ... BOTH Parties?

Incompetent Republican leads to Patton end up being candidate from FREEDOM PARTY?

 

[Herr Frage]

Wait ... BOTH Parties?

Incompetent Republican leads to Patton end up being candidate from FREEDOM PARTY?

Heck no; those losers were right about Wallace being bad for America but that's a stopped clock deal. Washington ran as an independent didn't he? Trying to make America great again by being a president that wants to put these parties in their place as serving America, rather than it serving them, was more what I was thinking.

 

[Panzerlied]

Wait ... BOTH Parties?

Incompetent Republican leads to Patton end up being candidate from FREEDOM PARTY?

 

[Herr Frage]

Man now, I want a Patton version of Cicero's letter to Antony toward Thurmond or McCarthy.

 

[akoslows]

Holy shit, I just discovered something. I entered Reinhard Heydrich's name in the Search tool because I was curious as to what kind of fate he was given ITTL, and I got no results. Does this mean that Heydrich escaped Germany before/after its surrender and is currently hiding somewhere in South America? If so, could this possibly lead to him being captured and later brought to trial for his crimes as a parallel to the Eichmann Trial of OTL?

Or did he just die the same way he died IOTL and I'm just getting a bit too excited about this?

 

[Ariosto]

I can't say that I am of some of the ways President Wallace has been handled, for various reasons I'll outline below:

• 1944 Presidential Election -
  • While Wallace would still have won over delegates in his Convention speech railing against Nazism, there is no lack of certainty in my mind that he would have fought hard for the inclusion of an exstensive Civil Rights plank in the Democratic Party platform. As it was, the Republican Platform of the time advocated for an constitutional amendment banning the use of poll taxes, the outlawing of lynching, and the establishment of a Fair Employment Practice Commission. Now I know there was a major push to add a plank guaranteeing equal voting rights, and what came out of that fight was largely platitudes that meant nothing, but if you've enlarged and emboldened the Wallace bloc at this Convention, you've effectively incensed the South and are going to have walkouts. A lot of walkouts.
  • Assuming this is not a full-blown bolt, most of the Southern States would remove Wallace from the ballot, instead putting up slates of Undeclared Electors in an effort to influence the election in their favor. I know that against Roosevelt there were nearly successful efforts in both Texas and Alabama to this effect (the former ran as Texas Regulars in the general), and there was talk of it in Mississippi, South Carolina and Louisiana. It is more likely however that there would have been a bolt given the historical 1948 experience, and a more successful one to boot given a host of Southern leaders would not feel the same sense of loyalty to Wallace as they did to Truman.
  • Wallace would never have picked Truman; if anything, he would have picked a political ally upon whom he could depend and who shared a common vision for America and the World. Claude Pepper I'd argue would be the favored choice.
  • Wallace was a highly polarizing, and I can't imagine him reaching (57%) even with an impossibly unified Democratic Party behind him; the (53%) to (46%) margin of the historical 1944 election I imagine would be the likelier scenario, those opposed to voting for Roosevelt's fourth term being instead represented by those seeing Wallace as too Liberal. That doesn't account for the South however, so the Wallace's count would be even lower. Honestly I would have to game this a bit to find an answer I'd be content with.
  • The Guru Letters would probably have been leaked regardless of what Dewey decides, whether by some other journalist or a member of the Republican campaign. I can see however a fear among the journalism community of running such a story, with only a handful of the most partisan papers running with it and actual coverage being relatively minor. Least, till Wallace's popularity sinks.
• Presidency
  • Wallace was an avowed advocate of Decolonization, far more so then Roosevelt least publicly, and that would be an area of serious tension between him and Europe. In the specific example I found, he wished in the Pacific to establish a Bloc amongst the USA, China, the Philippines and Russia which he termed "Free Asia", which would jointly apply pressure on "Subject/Colonial Asia" to ensure movement toward self-government for those areas. He viewed this as important for keeping Japan from ever possibly rearming in the future.
  • I doubt that Wallace would have played his hand the way you described him doing when it came to his private meeting with Stalin. I can certainly see some things come to pass, like the guarantee of a Soviet Occupation Zone in both Japan and Germany, I struggle to find others credible.
    • It is doubtful Wallace would have sacrificed the American zone in Berlin, especially after the amount of blood spilled there. There would certainly be extensive cooperation between the American and Soviet authorities to the chagrin of some, but a full handover would be out of the question, nor would it go over well on the homefront.
    • The Occupation of Japan will likely be the one that was initially envisioned, with American, British, Chines and Soviet Zones. This ironically would give the Soviets a larger hand in Japan then currently.
    • Wallace would not have given Stalin a carte-blanche on China, Korea, Poland or Slovakia, as that would be a betrayal of his very principals. However, he would be apt to not pressure the Soviets to withdraw from those areas which they held or would hold, whatever gains those may be. To some that may be functionally the same thing, but it would give the Wallace Administration an out if the Soviet Union were to pursue a direction in those territories that disturbed it.
      • However, I believe he would have agreed to all those territorial concessions given to Stalin historically, such as the acquisition of Port Arthur, Sakhalin and the Kurils.
    • For those who think this leaves Wallace's hand thin, well, Wallace actually wanted to share the technology for Atomic Weaponry with the Soviet Union. He viewed that, alongside the establishment of what would become the Atomic Energy Commission, as a way to regulate the peaceful introduction of atomic energy globally, and as a step towards atomic disarmament treaty on the part of both parties after the War. Even when accounting for the Soviet information network on the Manhattan Project, being handed the complete research is quite the prize. This might not have been a particularly popular move though.
    • Economic considerations definitely come to the fore, as Wallace wanted a strong and binding economic relationship with the Soviet Union, and hoped that by in further pursuing industrialization it would eventually democratize. That said, I think that Congress would balk at some of the extents which Wallace would have been willing to go and watered them down; significant, but not massive.
    • I think that Stalin would have needed more than three months to properly prepare his military for the punch into Manchuria; material and divisions was being sent East piecemeal as the war wound down historically, but with its far more rapid end here, and the natural limitations of the Siberian Railway, I believe it might have taken another month or so to get everything in place.

At least that is what comes to mind at the present. There are other points of contention, but I don't have enough information to comfortable offer an alternative.
​

 

[RyuDrago]

Well, is possible that Wallace could envision the development of the UN to be a ram against enduring European colonization especially in Africa, but we know already the European front would stand sufficiently compact, at least over what would consider overseas core provinces (Algeria, Spanish Morocco, Libya, Angola & Mozambique at least) so would be steps already doomed and 1948 isn't too far.