Oh! This fits nicely into any potential Confederate animation works.
Oh! This fits nicely into any potential Confederate animation works.
I was reading the post on Colonel Union AKA TL-191's version of Captain America, which made me contemplate what the comic book industry will look like ITTL. MLJ looks like it will take the place of Timely (later Marvel) Comics, so I am guessing that some of the characters will be hybrids of early Marvel and Archie superheroes, perhaps with a little Quality thrown in. These are a few of what I had in mind:
MLJ/Wonder Comics
-Colonel Union
-Firebrand (A combination of the android Human Torch and MLJ's Fireball with the Quality hero's name.)
-Sub-Mariner (More or less the same as OTL.)
-The Comet (Ditto, created by Jack Cole's counterpart TTL.)
-Quicksilver (Not the one you're thinking of. Try DC's Max Mercury.)
-Vision (A combination of the Golden Age hero and MLJ's Mr. Justice.)
-Miss America
-Rubber Man (TTL's version of Plastic Man)
-The Wizard
-The Web (Possibly revived in the Silver Age as a Spider-Man analogue?)
National Periodicals/All-Star Comics
-Superman (Since he is confirmed to exist in TL-191)
-Owl-Man (TTL's version of Batman, but with an avian motif.)
-Sparrow (TTL's version of Robin.)
-Wonder Woman (Given the USA's closeness to Germany, I wonder if TTL's Marston would model her on Norse mythology and change her into a Valkyrie.)
-Thunderbolt (TTL's version of the Jay Garrick Flash)
-The Green Lantern (Same as OTL, though with the name Alan Ladd.)
That's all I have time for, but what do you think?
MLJ/Wonder Comics
-Colonel Union
-Firebrand (A combination of the android Human Torch and MLJ's Fireball with the Quality hero's name.)
-Sub-Mariner (More or less the same as OTL.)
-The Comet (Ditto, created by Jack Cole's counterpart TTL.)
-Quicksilver (Not the one you're thinking of. Try DC's Max Mercury.)
-Vision (A combination of the Golden Age hero and MLJ's Mr. Justice.)
-Miss America
-Rubber Man (TTL's version of Plastic Man)
-The Wizard
-The Web (Possibly revived in the Silver Age as a Spider-Man analogue?)
National Periodicals/All-Star Comics
-Superman (Since he is confirmed to exist in TL-191)
-Owl-Man (TTL's version of Batman, but with an avian motif.)
-Sparrow (TTL's version of Robin.)
-Wonder Woman (Given the USA's closeness to Germany, I wonder if TTL's Marston would model her on Norse mythology and change her into a Valkyrie.)
-Thunderbolt (TTL's version of the Jay Garrick Flash)
-The Green Lantern (Same as OTL, though with the name Alan Ladd.)
That's all I have time for, but what do you think?
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When I was coming up with the publication history for MLJ/Wonder comics, I had the idea that lot of early heroes would be hybrids but more recognisable heroes to otl would start popping up the closer we moved to the modern day.
I also had the idea that the likes of Fawcett or Charlton comics had a better lot this time around and were able to merge with National Allied/DC instead of being sued into the ground. My reasoning was that war closer to home meant more cooperation between publishers to survive the conflicts.
I like a lot of your ideas. I imagine a lot of them would probably be refined in the Tl-191 equivalent of the Silver age (The Wizard getting actual magic powers and such)
I’d probably change The Blurs name (hated that since Smallville). I’d probably go with something like Thunderbolt or Hurricane and give him a fighter pilot aesthetic
Hyperman's first appearance in panel in Hero of the Confederacy #1
Hyperman is a character steeped in controversy, from his creation and first publications to his post-war acquisitions and adaptions. The origin of the Confederate hero turned villain can be found not in the South, but in the North, in New York City. In New York, National Union Publications was finding huge success with their new comic book, Superman! A story of man from a far off world coming to america and becoming a hero was hugely popular, even in the rather insular CSA. Even as the Freedom Party tightened its control and Northern comics became ever more pro-Union in their messages, Superman remained popular in the Confederacy, with copies being smuggled and bootlegged all around the country. In response, the Confederate States Department of Communications cracked down hard on Superman distributors and Confederated Freedom Publishing (the publishing mouthpiece for the Freedom Party) unveiled Hyperman: Hero of the Confederacy!
In his first issue, the origin story of Hyperman is spelled out for all to see. While Superman was an alien from another world, Hyperman was pure human. His names was Daniel Boone Zachary, a Freedom party supporter given great power by Confederate superscience and dedicating himself to championing the causes of the CSA and the Freedom Party. Hyperman was Freedom propaganda from word one, with most of his antagonists being stand-ins for socialism or the United States, or straight up racist caricatures of Blacks and other undesirables of the Freedom Party. It should be noted that many early Hyperman issues started life as issues of Superman, hastily recoloured and dialogue retyped to bring it in line with Freedom Party ideals. Hyperman would continue to be published even as the Second Great War erupted, regularly being portrayed defeating Superman or destroying Philadelphia. Hyperman would also make appearances in National Union Publications during this time as a frequent enemy of Superman and the Justice Squadron. However, as the war dragged on, resources and printers dwindled and eventually all printing of Hyperman in the CSA had ceased by 1944.
After the war, Hyperman was one of many pieces of pro-Freedom and Confederate media seized by the victorious United States as part of their attempts to censor and suppress unacceptable Confederate cultural materials. However, Hyperman was saved from permanent censorship by National Union Publications, now calling themselves All-Star Comics. All-Stars argued that since they had been allowed to use Hyperman during the war as a villain, that they should have right to the characters with the collapse of CF Publishing. In the ensuing court case, All Star Comics was awarded the rights to Hyperman but on the condition that he only ever be portrayed as a villain. In 1948, a retooled Hyperman with a new origin that brought him closer in line with Supermans origins, incorporating Krypton science from supermans rocketship as the secret behind his powers and twisting him into a dark mirror of Superman. He has made regular appearances in All Star Comics acting as an antagonists to many a hero and team, always re-adapted to make him an appropriate villain for the current era.
While many were critical of 2017's Justice Squadron: Legion of Destruction, Michael Shannon portrayal of the neo-Freedomite Major Daniel Boone Zachary was widely applauded
(I couldn't sleep, so I wrote Tl-191 General Zod instead)
Lovecraft died of cancer in 1937. He would not have written stories about atomic destruction and all things related to it.
He would also be too young to have served in the First Great war. His works would be largely unchanged.
I don't know much about Robert Howard.
I tried to have Lovecraft lived longer to write Post-War works. He and Robert Howard was close friends in real life, and Howard's death greatly affected Lovecraft leading to his death.
I didn't even know Lovecraft had friends. Its interesting to see real life writers would be affected by this timeline.
He also was friends with Harry Houdini.
In other news, I think an TL-191 of Babylon Berlin could be very neat to look at. (Probably London, or Pars.)
Show on Netflix about Berlin in the 1920s. I haven’t seen it yet but I want to
i'd totally forgotten about this
there's lots of alternate turns from OTL such as whole films that were scrapped, (it was once possible that a Snow Queen adaptation could've been the first feature-length animated film instead of Snow White, for example) but i can't recall most of them off the top of my head so i'll give a rundown on some probable changes just to the OTL films to start us off:- Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs: probably identical to OTL except for some cosmetic changes like the dwarfs' names (there were a whole bunch of possibilities before they settled on personality-based names)
- Pinocchio: this is where the first big question for all of these comes up--would the national origin of a given work affect adaptations of it ITTL? to my knowledge, Italy was unimportant ITTL and the Union never took any issue with them, so that probably wouldn't affect Pinocchio; Pinocchio itself raises another question of if the butterfly effect would mean most any work of fiction from after the POD wouldn't exist ITTL, which would include The Adventures of Pinocchio, published in 1883
- Fantasia: probably unchanged except for some alterations to the different segments
- Dumbo: this one is dependent on if Fantasia still bombs financially, since IOTL Dumbo was made to recoup the losses of Fantasia
- Bambi: probably unchanged; if origins are taken into account, it's slightly more likely than others since the original book, Bambi, a Life in the Woods, is Austrian
- Saludos Amigos: this one could be where the first big changes to a given Disney film occur, since IOTL both Saludos Amigos and The Three Caballeros were made to exploit a new market in Latin America that Walt realized was untapped, so ITTL it depends on if this same thing comes into play
- The Three Caballeros: see above
- Make Mine Music: this was a compilation film, so any changes would be to the individual segments, not the film as a whole
- Fun and Fancy Free: see above
- Melody Time: see above
- The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad: this one is an interesting possibility on the origins question, since this is another compilation film but half of it is one of the first American classics, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, while the other is based on a British children's book, The Wind in the Willows--perhaps moreso than others, would TTL's Walt want to adapt something from the media of the Union's longtime enemy Britain?
- Cinderella: for the origins question, this one is up in the air--it's French (or at least the version Disney adapted was French) but the fairy tale is ubiquitous enough that it's French origin might not matter, but it's also easy enough to just do a find-replace and use a different version of the Cinderella archetype in this version, or maybe even mesh them together where Cinderella, her late father, and Prince Charming are German (so Cinderella herself could be named Aschenputtel instead, from the Brothers Grimm) while main antagonist Lady Tremaine and the evil stepsisters are French (which itself could lead to another interesting angle later since a big theme of the direct-to-video sequels was one of the stepsisters, Anastasia, going through a redemption arc and getting her own happily-ever-after)
- Alice in Wonderland: the origins question again and the butterfly effect is in play, though not as much as some others since Alice's Adventures in Wonderland was published in 1865 so it's possible that it's "too late" to be canceled out by the butterfly effect like how a novel from OTL's present-day would be; a simple cosmetic change would be that it's called Alice's Adventures Under Ground [sic] ITTL since the original Alice manuscript that Carroll wrote was called that
- Peter Pan: again, the origins question and the butterfly effect
- Lady and the Tramp: this one probably wouldn't have any meaningful changes--it's fundamentally an original story (apparently it's based on a children's book called "Happy Dan, the Whistling Dog" but that one doesn't have it's own Wiki page and i've had no luck finding much on it in the past) so it's more subject to the butterfly effect than anything else
- Sleeping Beauty: another one with probably few to no changes and which is ubiquitous enough that any particular origin of it probably wouldn't affect the film; one interesting bit of it would be the soundtrack, which was based on Tchaikovsky's ballet, which might be butterflied or else subject to the origins question, being Russian and all)
- One Hundred and One Dalmatians: this one is probably eliminated by the butterfly effect, since the book it's based on is from 1956
- The Sword in the Stone: moreso than others, this might be subject to both the butterfly effect and the origins question two times over ITTL--not only is King Arthur one of if not the most significant British fictional/legendary character ever, the book that the film was adapted from is also British in origin and made by an English author who would be alive in the timeframe of the Great Wars and was written over the course of 1938-1958, leaving TONS of room for circumstances to prevent it from ever being written because of the butterfly effect, such as T. H. White being drafted and dying during one of the wars or being part of a group persecuted by the Silvershirts for whatever reason (or, conversely, being a Silvershirt and ending up killed by one of their opponents--i don't know anything about T. H. White as a person so i'm just tossing out possibilities here)
- The Jungle Book: yet another question of origins and butterflies, since the book is of British origin, though the Indian setting might mitigate the latter
- The Aristocats: this is actually the first original Disney film, not The Lion King, (shut up about Hamlet and Kimba) so it's entirely up in the air if it would still be made ITTL, but if it is then i'd believe it if the setting was moved from France to another country, possibly Germany--if memory serves, Dresden was nicknamed "Florence on the Rhine" before being destroyed in World War II so it could make a good substitute as an iconic, beautiful city that the protagonists live in and are kidnapped from and then have to make their way back to
- Robin Hood: in contrast to The Sword in the Stone, i could see this being mostly unchanged--again, barring cosmetic changes--where English folk hero Robin Hood is still the hero as a contrast to the tyrannical English monarchy as represented by Prince John and its enforcers symbolized by the Sheriff of Nottingham, rather than the latter just being an evil overlord and his corrupt law enforcement; barring that, it could be replaced by an adaptation of Reynard the Fox, since iirc that's why Robin Hood featured anthropomorphic animals IOTL (and, particularly, why alot of the animal choices were made--Robin is Reynard the fox and the Sheriff is Isengrim the wolf, for example)
- The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh: again, the origins question and butterfly effect
- The Rescuers: origins and butterflies again
- The Fox and the Hound: if origins are significant, then this one would still be there--it's based on an American book, so pretty much only the butterfly effect is in play here
- The Black Cauldron: similar to The Fox and the Hound, this one is pretty much only subject to the butterfly effect as being based on a series of American novels
- The Great Mouse Detective: the butterfly effect again, but this time at a much earlier stage since the existence of Basil of Baker Street is obviously dependent on the existence of Sherlock Holmes, and even if Holmes does exist as a fictional character then it's entirely possible that the American author wouldn't base their mouse ersatz on a British fictional character
- Oliver & Company: also based on a British novel despite the setting and character's being entirely changed, so i dunno...
- The Little Mermaid: since it's of Danish origin, i'm not quite sure if the origins question would apply to it
- The Rescuers Down Under: as a sequel, this is dependent on The Rescuers existing
- Beauty and the Beast: i would say that origins are in play, but it's gotten to be the 1990s by this point so i'd say it's entirely possible, even probable, that origins wouldn't matter after this point except for the stickiest of sticking points (there will never be an unironic Confederate protagonist in TTL's media, but French? maybe)
Oh-ho-ho~! Did someone say Crime Noir? Already all over it!
Apologies for cross-posting - I imagine its probably more appropriate to put this here, since it does relate to pop-culture and culture in general.
National Personifications --- TL-191 -- The Confederacy's Personifications
Okay guys, here's a fun one. So, the United States has Columbia and Uncle Sam. The United Kingdom has Britannia and John Bull. The Russian Empire has Mother Russia. France has Marianne. See where I'm going with this? They're all the personifications of their respective countries in some way or another. In the United States' case Uncle Sam is more representative of the government of the US, while Columbia herself is more representative of the country as a whole.
You see them and other national personifications in many things - propaganda, political cartoons, advertisements, media, and so on. Seems that every major country had some kind of national personification of their nation at one point or another.
So, that's my question - what would be the national personification(s) of the Confederate States of America? What would be the iconic symbols and look of the Confederacy represented in propaganda and political cartoons and such. Would they be a man or a woman or both? What would their names be? What would they look like?
^^^ --- Columbia - Female personification of the United States.
^^^ --- Britannia, female personification of Great Britain.
^^^ --- Uncle Sam portrayed in propaganda.
^^^ --- Various iterations of John Bull (Great Britain) and Marianne (France).
National Personifications --- TL-191 -- The Confederacy's Personifications
Okay guys, here's a fun one. So, the United States has Columbia and Uncle Sam. The United Kingdom has Britannia and John Bull. The Russian Empire has Mother Russia. France has Marianne. See where I'm going with this? They're all the personifications of their respective countries in some way or another. In the United States' case Uncle Sam is more representative of the government of the US, while Columbia herself is more representative of the country as a whole.
You see them and other national personifications in many things - propaganda, political cartoons, advertisements, media, and so on. Seems that every major country had some kind of national personification of their nation at one point or another.
So, that's my question - what would be the national personification(s) of the Confederate States of America? What would be the iconic symbols and look of the Confederacy represented in propaganda and political cartoons and such. Would they be a man or a woman or both? What would their names be? What would they look like?
^^^ --- Columbia - Female personification of the United States.
^^^ --- Britannia, female personification of Great Britain.
^^^ --- Uncle Sam portrayed in propaganda.
^^^ --- Various iterations of John Bull (Great Britain) and Marianne (France).
Hyperman's first appearance in panel in Hero of the Confederacy #1
Hyperman
(I couldn't sleep, so I wrote Tl-191 General Zod instead)
Me and @Joshua Ben Ari talked about this, and I while I really enjoy this, we came up with this.
I think that the court case deciding Hyperman has to always be a villain might be a bit much, but I do like the idea of US comic-book publishers taking Confederate superheroes and re-imagining them (or repurposing them as antiheroes) after the Dissolution.
Like they might have been able to use Hyperman as the result of a HYDRA-like Confederate "mad scientist" division at countering the United States, a clone gone mad with power. So you have Superman dealing with his mad clone, the idea of nature vs. nurture, the idea of evil, and even what it means to be a superhero. Rather than a court case. It just bothers me.
i'd totally forgotten about this
at this point, as i was going through the list, i found myself doubting more and more that there would probably be any significant changes to any of the OTL films at this point, so i'm just gonna clip the rest of the list
Me and Joshua also talked about this.
Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs: No real differences.
Pinocchio: The rest of the world is more, or less the same till at least the Second Mexican War, the end of slavery in the South, and the Union-German Friendship. (And Butterfly Net.) Carlo Collodi was already writing stuff in the 1850s, some French Fairly Tales so well he won't be affected so much and does his thing. Some butterflies but nothing that would make it so unrecognizable that people from our TL wouldn't recognize it
Fantasia: Same.
Dumbo: The crows are more Southern city-folk, obvious that they're supposed to be derided.
Saludos Amigos/ Three Caballeros: Might see an all-Haitian version.
Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad: You might see some positive German characters, but the story might be largely the same. Like, 98% the same.
Cinderella: I can see that, more obviously German.
Alice in Wonderland: Butterfly Net, and the basis of the story is safe from the POD in America. This one is going to stay the same.
Sleeping Beauty: Tchaikovsky is safe since I doubt the War of Secession would affect him in Russia. This one would also honesty be the same as well.
Sword in the Stone: Not going to happen, at least not in America. The Americans won't celebrate King Arthur, who is steeped in British mythos. The UK would likely make it themselves.
The Aristocats: It was one of my first Disney movies, so the idea of it TTL set in Dresden is fantastic.
Robin Hood: Again Robin Hood is steeped in British culture, so it won't happen. Or if it does, more obviously anti-British (Robin Hood is American, King John is British, framed as part of the American struggle for freedom. Maybe during the American Revolution?)
Beauty and the Beast: Make it set in Quebec, and you avoid the whole issue.
When I first saw the National personification of Tl-191 my mind kind of immediately jumped to some kind of 191 equivalent of Hetalia or Scandinavian and the World.
USA: A former idealist who ended up giving up on his childhood dream of being a hero and is now kind of a paranoid thug. Thanks to having such a bloody history for a relatively young nation, leaving him with more than a few mental problems. Though he is far smarter than his outward demeanor would suggest, consider his amenable relationship with Russia and close friendship with the German Empire. Being two of the very few people who get the United States to break his otherwise intimidating and stoic demeanor and actually smile.
USA: A former idealist who ended up giving up on his childhood dream of being a hero and is now kind of a paranoid thug. Thanks to having such a bloody history for a relatively young nation, leaving him with more than a few mental problems. Though he is far smarter than his outward demeanor would suggest, consider his amenable relationship with Russia and close friendship with the German Empire. Being two of the very few people who get the United States to break his otherwise intimidating and stoic demeanor and actually smile.
The court decision to allow him to only be a villain might be a bit of judicial overreach on my part. I can retcon and say that was a deal put forward by All Star so they can keep using him with minimal trouble from the government.
And there could very well be hyperman as a dark Superman clone stories. Alternate Grant Morrison has probably written a few of them, especially the further away from the Second Great War you get. The General Zod route seemed like the most likely to me. It would require very few changes to the stories they’d already published during the war. And being his own person means they can write more unique stories about him then constantly having him being a reflection of Superman
A friend of mine claims that she has not seen The Aristocats, but she has read the book. However, according to a book with analyzations of Disney movies that i acquired yesterday at a Donaldist auction, it is "based on a story by Tom McGowan and Tom Rowe", but I´m not sure if "story" means a short story or just a synopsis. Then of course, the book she was talking about may just have been a novelization.
Anyway, I´m not convinced that Disney would not set the story in France just because they were indirect enemies in the Great Wars. Aristocats was released in 1970, and by that point in OTL France and Germany had well reconciled with each other, despite being former death enemies (definitely more so than TL-191 France and USA), so I think bitterness in the memory of the Great wars would be irrelevant by this point.
One of their most underrated works, BTW, although its off-topic
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i may well have misremembered, but i can't recall ever seeing anything about an Aristocats book that it was based on
Neither do I, so I guess that she had just read a novelization. BUT then again, it was the last Disney film to be green lighted by Walt himself, so the basic story must have been around already in ´66 (four years before it was released). The same book claims Lady and the Tramp, which was apparently inspired by a short story, to have been "based on a story" as well.