AHC: No German Unification

[Eivind]

Morning all.

With a POD no earlier than the end of the War of the Second Coalition in 1802, set it up so that Germany is still divided in 2019. For purposes of this challenge Germany can't have unified at all. Having a united Germany permanently broken up later (a la the end of "Anglo-American Nazi War") does not count. Germany can never have formed in the first place.

You can have as many or as few minor entities as you'd like, but instead of one nation of Germany there should be at least a few nations where OTL Germany is now.

Strictly speaking, as Austria was considered part of Germany at the time, Germany never really became totally United. But that aside, With a POD in 1802 it should be fairly easy. Just make sure that France remains as powerful as possible. Probably Napoleon dying before he goes too far to provoke his neighbours might help.

 

[JackLumber]

Austria not being German is a modern concept that only exists because the allies wanted it to.

 

[NolanFoster]

Austria not being German is a modern concept that only exists because the allies wanted it to.

I'm not sure what your motivations are for saying this, but you're actually right. Ideas, including ideas about what define a nation, evolve to achieve political objectives. Moreover, they develop in reference to and against other ideas. Austria is not part of Germany because the only successful unification occurred by a regime whose key ideas of Grossdeutschland and very legacy needed to be blotted from German (and Austrian) identity uncompromisingly and completely. All of civil society and the political spectrum, from conservatives to social democrats, subscribed to this project and nation-built two very non-Nazi states.

I'm not saying this was bad. This was good and accomplished what it was meant to do, and the death of the idea of a greater Germany certainly played some part in hampering a renewed German militarism like some feared after 1945.

 

[JackLumber]

I'm not sure what your motivations are for saying this, but you're actually right. Ideas, including ideas about what define a nation, evolve to achieve political objectives. Moreover, they develop in reference to and against other ideas. Austria is not part of Germany because the only successful unification occurred by a regime whose key ideas of Grossdeutschland and very legacy needed to be blotted from German (and Austrian) identity uncompromisingly and completely. All of civil society and the political spectrum, from conservatives to social democrats, subscribed to this project and nation-built two very non-Nazi states.

I'm not saying this was bad. This was good and accomplished what it was meant to do, and the death of the idea of a greater Germany certainly played some part in hampering a renewed German militarism like some feared after 1945.

I have no motive, i was just stating a fact.
I wouldnt say it was good or bad really as long as it is/was done peacefully i see no inherent issue with unification between the two but i do understand that nazism casts an ugly ugly shadow on it

 

[Socrates]

Strictly speaking, as Austria was considered part of Germany at the time, Germany never really became totally United. But that aside, With a POD in 1802 it should be fairly easy. Just make sure that France remains as powerful as possible. Probably Napoleon dying before he goes too far to provoke his neighbours might help.

It was united in the 1930s.