AHC/WI: Ottoman Empire Collapses Sooner

[kernals12]

The breakup of the Ottoman Empire after the First World War came after a century of decline which saw it lose vast amounts of territory. But even in 1914, they were still in control of many strategically and symbollically important territories. They had the Strait of Marmara, and therefore the power to block Russia's Navy and Maritime Commerce, much to the chagrin of Russia and to the delight of everyone else. They had the Holy Land, with all cultural importance that carried. And they had the Persian Gulf, which we would find out had lots and lots of oil.

So what's the best way we could have something approaching the Treaty of Sevres where Turkey is reduced to a rump state by, say, 1870 with Russian control of Constantinople and British control of the Persian gulf? And what impact does this have on the world?

 

[kernals12]

anyone?

 

[BBadolato]

anyone?

Define sooner, as in the late 1800's or much earlier?

 

[kernals12]

Define sooner, as in the late 1800's or much earlier?

Any time during the 19th century. I actually suggested 1870 in the OP.

 

[Mac Gregor]

Had the Russians taken Constantinople in the late 1800s the Ottoman Empire might have broken up.

 

[kernals12]

Had the Russians taken Constantinople in the late 1800s the Ottoman Empire might have broken up.

I think that would've been the result, not the cause, of the empire breaking up.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

The breakup of the Ottoman Empire after the First World War came after a century of decline which saw it lose vast amounts of territory. But even in 1914, they were still in control of many strategically and symbollically important territories. They had the Strait of Marmara, and therefore the power to block Russia's Navy and Maritime Commerce, much to the chagrin of Russia and to the delight of everyone else. They had the Holy Land, with all cultural importance that carried. And they had the Persian Gulf, which we would find out had lots and lots of oil.

So what's the best way we could have something approaching the Treaty of Sevres where Turkey is reduced to a rump state by, say, 1870 with Russian control of Constantinople and British control of the Persian gulf? And what impact does this have on the world?

Mahmud II is murdered by the Janissaries in 1808, after Mustafa IV is killed as well.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Had the Russians taken Constantinople in the late 1800s the Ottoman Empire might have broken up.

Late 19th century is harder due to foreign pressure. If Nicholas I becomes Czar in 1821 and the UK and France are dragged in Spain by 1823 then he might have a chance to take Istanbul. Russian Armies were deep in Eastern Thrace in 1829.

 

[Byzantine fanatic]

The breakup of the Ottoman Empire after the First World War came after a century of decline which saw it lose vast amounts of territory. But even in 1914, they were still in control of many strategically and symbollically important territories. They had the Strait of Marmara, and therefore the power to block Russia's Navy and Maritime Commerce, much to the chagrin of Russia and to the delight of everyone else. They had the Holy Land, with all cultural importance that carried. And they had the Persian Gulf, which we would find out had lots and lots of oil.

So what's the best way we could have something approaching the Treaty of Sevres where Turkey is reduced to a rump state by, say, 1870 with Russian control of Constantinople and British control of the Persian gulf? And what impact does this have on the world?

Why would anyone want that?

Hasn't history already been unkind enough to the Ottomans/ people of the Middle East as it is?

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Why would anyone want that?

Hasn't history already been unkind enough to the Ottomans/ people of the Middle East as it is?

No, it has to be even more cruel! Wtf are Turkz even living in Europe lol? Europe for Europeans (although it varies from person to person who is European)!

 

[kernals12]

Why would anyone want that?

Hasn't history already been unkind enough to the Ottomans/ people of the Middle East as it is?

The Ottomans slaughtered 1.5 million Armenians and the blocked the Bosporous during World War I, crippling Russia.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

The Ottomans slaughtered 1.5 million Armenians and the blocked the Bosporous during World War I, crippling Russia.

1. Slaughtered? One would think that they lined up exactly 1,5 million Armenians and slaughtered them like cattle (literally). What a good way to spend military resources rather than using it against the Russians or the British.

2. Implying crippling Russia was an evil act

 

[Gloss]

1. Slaughtered? One would think that they lined up exactly 1,5 million Armenians and slaughtered them like cattle (literally). What a good way to spend military resources rather than using it against the Russians or the British.

Well I'm not sure why you are nitpicking the sentence as in its essence it's true.

 

[Gloss]

The breakup of the Ottoman Empire after the First World War came after a century of decline which saw it lose vast amounts of territory. But even in 1914, they were still in control of many strategically and symbollically important territories. They had the Strait of Marmara, and therefore the power to block Russia's Navy and Maritime Commerce, much to the chagrin of Russia and to the delight of everyone else. They had the Holy Land, with all cultural importance that carried. And they had the Persian Gulf, which we would find out had lots and lots of oil.

So what's the best way we could have something approaching the Treaty of Sevres where Turkey is reduced to a rump state by, say, 1870 with Russian control of Constantinople and British control of the Persian gulf? And what impact does this have on the world?

Russia need some good ally that is far enough from the region to not have a big stake in what happens to the Ottomans if they get something else out of it, maybe Germany?

 

[BBadolato]

1. Slaughtered? One would think that they lined up exactly 1,5 million Armenians and slaughtered them like cattle (literally). What a good way to spend military resources rather than using it against the Russians or the British.

Wording aside the Ottoman military did use the pretext of conscription and logistics to gather and kill the Armenian men, with death marches to kill the women and children, so they literally did use the military as a means to commit genocide.

 

[Byzantine fanatic]

The Ottomans slaughtered 1.5 million Armenians and the blocked the Bosporous during World War I, crippling Russia.

Fairly sure this constitutes an attempt to provoke other posters into a reaction. I would advise other members to be careful and exercise judgement. It may be best to simply walk away. I would not like to see any moderator action in this thread. I fear a post like this could lead to a flame war that derails the whole thread (unfortunately). I hope not.

 

[kernals12]

Fairly sure this constitutes an attempt to provoke other posters into a reaction. I would advise other members to be careful and exercise judgement. It may be best to simply walk away. I would not like to see any moderator action in this thread. I fear a post like this could lead to a flame war that derails the whole thread (unfortunately). I hope not.

I'm just saying that it wasn't a tragedy the Ottoman Empire was broken up.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

I'm just saying that it wasn't a tragedy the Ottoman Empire was broken up.

Tell that to the Syrians, Iraqis and the Palestinians.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Wording aside the Ottoman military did use the pretext of conscription and logistics to gather and kill the Armenian men, with death marches to kill the women and children, so they literally did use the military as a means to commit genocide.

And ofcourse genocide would mean that all Armenians would be targeted yet the community in Istanbul was somehow not touched. Not even talking about the ever rising Armenian death toll. I won't be surprised to hear 2 million casualties within 5 years.

It was a tragedy. It was a catastrophe. And the Ottomans could have done a better job in relocating the Armenians but they failed. Just like they failed in the Caucasus front.

 

[kernals12]

And ofcourse genocide would mean that all Armenians would be targeted yet the community in Istanbul was somehow not touched. Not even talking about the ever rising Armenian death toll. I won't be surprised to hear 2 million casualties within 5 years.

It was a tragedy. It was a catastrophe. And the Ottomans could have done a better job in relocating the Armenians but they failed. Just like they failed in the Caucasus front.

This is flagrant genocide denial.