“European” Native Americans

[Bassarion Korax]

Dont really like how many threads that have come up recently asking how to make certain areas of the world "white"

Ummm... why? What’s the matter with playing with the phenotypic makeup of the world? What if someone wanted to expand the East Asian phenotype further west, or maybe have more Native American-looking phenotypes wider spread in East Asia? Or how about more South Asian phenotypes in Southeast Asia, like Myanmar, or maybe more Southeast Asian-looking folks in India? Actually, Bangladesh apparently only began to experience migration from further southwest as recently as 3000 years ago, but before that was largely made up of “Asians”, likely speaking some variety of Sino-Tibetan as well as Austroasiatic (speakers of Munda and Khadijah started to migrate into the area around then as well).

Would you also not like that, or is it only when people are expanding the phenotype that makes up less than a 6th of the world population that you start to become uncomfortable?

 

[Mightyboosh5]

Ummm... why? What’s the matter with playing with the phenotypic makeup of the world? What if someone wanted to expand the East Asian phenotype further west, or maybe have more Native American-looking phenotypes wider spread in East Asia? Or how about more South Asian phenotypes in Southeast Asia, like Myanmar, or maybe more Southeast Asian-looking folks in India? Actually, Bangladesh apparently only began to experience migration from further southwest as recently as 3000 years ago, but before that was largely made up of “Asians”, likely speaking some variety of Sino-Tibetan as well as Austroasiatic (speakers of Munda and Khadijah started to migrate into the area around then as well).

Would you also not like that, or is it only when people are expanding the phenotype that makes up less than a 6th of the world population that you start to become uncomfortable?

Yes obviously Speculating on phenotype differences in history isn’t inherently a bad thing. What unnerves me is the number of threads that use ahistorical language (white people as a concept did not exist thousands of years ago and would likely not exist in the same way had North America been populated with lighter skinned people). Do I really have to spell out for you why constantly trying to imagine a world that is more white than ours is more annoying than the reverse?

Not trying to insult OP just saying that the threads recently (especially that one about making Most of Asia white) have been a bit pointless imo by their use of terminology of white.

 

[Bassarion Korax]

Yes obviously Speculating on phenotype differences in history isn’t inherently a bad thing. What unnerves me is the number of threads that use ahistorical language (white people as a concept did not exist thousands of years ago and would likely not exist in the same way had North America been populated with lighter skinned people). Do I really have to spell out for you why constantly trying to imagine a world that is more white than ours is more annoying than the reverse?

Not trying to insult OP just saying that the threads recently (especially that one about making Most of Asia white) have been a bit pointless imo by their use of terminology of white.

Yes, you kind of do. While there might not have been the same concept of “Whiteness” that there is today, which tends mostly towards someone having a non-Mediterranean phenotype (although most Western Mediterraneans I have seen would still be classed as White), there was definitely a concept of White Europeans as being different from people in the Middle East and especially South Asia, East Asia, and Southeast Asia. If you keep up with the literature today, you know that “Whiteness” can also be distinguished genetically, as the majority of White Europeans cluster together in a few different haplogroups that have been evolving here (I’m in Italy at the moment) for millennia.

There should be nothing wrong with people speculating about how to either expand these genetic clusters and thus expand the European phenotype, or evolve a parallel phenotype elsewhere. For example, the Andamanese look very African when compared to Melanesians, but they aren’t genetically similar to either. The majority of people on this planet are not White today, but are actually Black or East Asian... what’s the matter with imagining a world where more people look White and/or cluster genetically with Europeans?

In terms of how this would change interactions between people, I agree that they would be similar, but one key difference that you can observe with the Spanish and the Guanches for example is that the Spanish directly assimilated the Guanches, displacing their men and marrying their women. Although this happened to some degree in the Spanish colonies in the Americas, this was much, much less common, and in English colonies there were at various times laws forbidding miscegenation. If the people look similar enough, despite being genetically distant, the laws are unlikely to be conceived of, let alone even take root.

This would have a MAJOR impact on the demographics and the perception of race and race relations in general in North America today, assuming a “butterfly net” were used in such a timeline.

 

[Mightyboosh5]

Yes, you kind of do. While there might not have been the same concept of “Whiteness” that there is today, which tends mostly towards someone having a non-Mediterranean phenotype (although most Western Mediterraneans I have seen would still be classed as White), there was definitely a concept of White Europeans as being different from people in the Middle East and especially South Asia, East Asia, and Southeast Asia. If you keep up with the literature today, you know that “Whiteness” can also be distinguished genetically, as the majority of White Europeans cluster together in a few different haplogroups that have been evolving here (I’m in Italy at the moment) for millennia.

There should be nothing wrong with people speculating about how to either expand these genetic clusters and thus expand the European phenotype, or evolve a parallel phenotype elsewhere. For example, the Andamanese look very African when compared to Melanesians, but they aren’t genetically similar to either. The majority of people on this planet are not White today, but are actually Black or East Asian... what’s the matter with imagining a world where more people look White and/or cluster genetically with Europeans?

In terms of how this would change interactions between people, I agree that they would be similar, but one key difference that you can observe with the Spanish and the Guanches for example is that the Spanish directly assimilated the Guanches, displacing their men and marrying their women. Although this happened to some degree in the Spanish colonies in the Americas, this was much, much less common, and in English colonies there were at various times laws forbidding miscegenation. If the people look similar enough, despite being genetically distant, the laws are unlikely to be conceived of, let alone even take root.

This would have a MAJOR impact on the demographics and the perception of race and race relations in general in North America today, assuming a “butterfly net” were used in such a timeline.

I kind of need to explain to you the history of white supremacy, white mans burden and racial theories of superiority? Nah you can google that and see why constant discussion of expanding the numbers of white areas of the globe is more contentious than the reverse.

Miscegenation in Spanish colonies was very similar to the Canary Islands, most of the carribeans natives were assimilated into the Spanish settler population in almost je exact same way as the Guanches were. The main difference in Mexico and the Andes was that they encountered a much larger well established population that was not structurally annihilated by disease.

Miscegenenation laws are one major thing that could be changed however I doubt that fundamentally the confrontational aspect of colonisation would be changed, just look at catholics and Protestants in Ireland who look almost exactly the same and even spoke mostly the same language, still managed to come into conflict over land and control of state power for the best part of four hundred years.

 

[Bassarion Korax]

I kind of need to explain to you the history of white supremacy, white mans burden and racial theories of superiority? Nah you can google that and see why constant discussion of expanding the numbers of white areas of the globe is more contentious than the reverse.

Miscegenation in Spanish colonies was very similar to the Canary Islands, most of the carribeans natives were assimilated into the Spanish settler population in almost je exact same way as the Guanches were. The main difference in Mexico and the Andes was that they encountered a much larger well established population that was not structurally annihilated by disease.

Miscegenenation laws are one major thing that could be changed however I doubt that fundamentally the confrontational aspect of colonisation would be changed, just look at catholics and Protestants in Ireland who look almost exactly the same and even spoke mostly the same language, still managed to come into conflict over land and control of state power for the best part of four hundred years.

There is just about nobody who believes that Whites are inherently “superior” in all aspects. Even people who talk about human biodiversity extending to the brain don’t consider White people to have a “superior” but rather a differently adapted brain. With that in mind, the history of White Supremacy and colonialism is history, and so not only should we not be beating people over the head with it today, but we also shouldn’t be limiting alternate history discussion based on it.

And no, the natives of the Caribbean were not assimilated in this manner by a longshot. They died en masse due to disease and the complete disruption of their socio-economic structure by the Spanish who, for awhile treated them pretty brutally. Later on, after their numbers had been totally decimated, some Spaniards began mixing with them, and this became more socially acceptable of course after the conquest of Mexico in which Hernán Cortéz famously fell in love with and married a native woman. But the Arawaks and the Caribs had a pretty raw deal there for a bit.

I’m not saying that assimilation of a “White” Native American population is going to be more peaceful. Colonization is going to be rife with much of the same violent shenanigans as it was IOTL. Assimilation is often somewhat of an ugly process (see the assimilation of the Irish and Italians into wider American culture). The difference however, is that the Natives might be fully assimilated by the turn of the 21st century, and certain events like the Trail of Tears I think are considerably less likely to happen, even if the Natives never fully convert to Christianity. Miscegenation laws are also extremely unlikely to exist, which means a greater level of Native admixture in the general populace, because once grandma had converted to Christianity and adopted an Anglo-Saxon Protestant lifestyle then who to say she’s not an American? Hell, grandma and grandpa could both be converted Natives, and if they had English names and spoke good enough English, you might not even be able to tell... especially not after a few generations. This would of course also result in a far less racially conscious United States, especially in states where slavery never takes hold (again, assuming a butterfly net). There would probably be a very different feeling in the air about Europeans’ interaction with the Natives as well.

 

[Mightyboosh5]

There is just about nobody who believes that Whites are inherently “superior” in all aspects. Even people who talk about human biodiversity extending to the brain don’t consider White people to have a “superior” but rather a differently adapted brain. With that in mind, the history of White Supremacy and colonialism is history, and so not only should we not be beating people over the head with it today, but we also shouldn’t be limiting alternate history discussion based on it.

And no, the natives of the Caribbean were not assimilated in this manner by a longshot. They died en masse due to disease and the complete disruption of their socio-economic structure by the Spanish who, for awhile treated them pretty brutally. Later on, after their numbers had been totally decimated, some Spaniards began mixing with them, and this became more socially acceptable of course after the conquest of Mexico in which Hernán Cortéz famously fell in love with and married a native woman. But the Arawaks and the Caribs had a pretty raw deal there for a bit.

I’m not saying that assimilation of a “White” Native American population is going to be more peaceful. Colonization is going to be rife with much of the same violent shenanigans as it was IOTL. Assimilation is often somewhat of an ugly process (see the assimilation of the Irish and Italians into wider American culture). The difference however, is that the Natives might be fully assimilated by the turn of the 21st century, and certain events like the Trail of Tears I think are considerably less likely to happen, even if the Natives never fully convert to Christianity. Miscegenation laws are also extremely unlikely to exist, which means a greater level of Native admixture in the general populace, because once grandma had converted to Christianity and adopted an Anglo-Saxon Protestant lifestyle then who to say she’s not an American? Hell, grandma and grandpa could both be converted Natives, and if they had English names and spoke good enough English, you might not even be able to tell... especially not after a few generations. This would of course also result in a far less racially conscious United States, especially in states where slavery never takes hold (again, assuming a butterfly net). There would probably be a very different feeling in the air about Europeans’ interaction with the Natives as well.

I don’t understand what your point is about white supremacy in brain differences, how is that relevant at all to this discussion?

Agree with what you said about the carribean because I mentioned disease briefly anyway, when I said they used the same technique of assimilation I meant that intermarriage was so common that after several generations the two peoples essentially became one.

Integrating white European immigrants into American society by the 21st century is a very different prospect to integrating native Americans who just appear white. Potentially easier to integrate those who look similar to the majority, however the history of native Americans within the USA is that of constant conquest suppression and confinement, not quite the same as how Irish and Italians were treated.

 

[inawarminister]

it's ASB but I remember an ISOT/isekai novel set in Americas where "Aryans" crossed over so native Americans become caucasoids, but it's just an aside.
Hmm, Sergeant of Kalevolan something?
Let me search for a bit.


Anyway, let loose the butterfly net and have Carthaginians exploring the Americas in 400BCE, it might be fun. The Native Americans would be the primitive Celts and Germans analogues of the era after all.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

it's ASB but I remember an ISOT/isekai novel set in Americas where "Aryans" crossed over so native Americans become caucasoids, but it's just an aside.
Hmm, Sergeant of Kalevolan something?
Let me search for a bit.


Anyway, let loose the butterfly net and have Carthaginians exploring the Americas in 400BCE, it might be fun. The Native Americans would be the primitive Celts and Germans analogues of the era after all.

Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen.

 

[Albert.Nik]

That still doesn't make any sense. That's a really broad and vague category and I have no idea how these groups are "more structured" than Norsemen, much less how the hell they're supposed to get across the Atlantic and maintain contact with Rome.

Continental Celts had good contact with Greece and Rome. So they could potentially do so after getting significantly influenced by the Romans and could become some satellite states of Rome or incorporated into Rome itself. Italo-Celts include Romans who were on the Latin-Faliscan branch of the Italic branch under the Italo-Celtic umbrella.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

Continental Celts had good contact with Greece and Rome. So they could potentially do so after getting significantly influenced by the Romans and could become some satellite states of Rome or incorporated into Rome itself. Italo-Celts include Romans who were on the Latin-Faliscan branch of the Italic branch under the Italo-Celtic umbrella.

This doesn't make any sense at all and I can't really guess what you're trying to get at.

 

[Bassarion Korax]

I don’t understand what your point is about white supremacy in brain differences, how is that relevant at all to this discussion?

Agree with what you said about the carribean because I mentioned disease briefly anyway, when I said they used the same technique of assimilation I meant that intermarriage was so common that after several generations the two peoples essentially became one.

Integrating white European immigrants into American society by the 21st century is a very different prospect to integrating native Americans who just appear white. Potentially easier to integrate those who look similar to the majority, however the history of native Americans within the USA is that of constant conquest suppression and confinement, not quite the same as how Irish and Italians were treated.

Because, at least what I am reading, and perhaps I am wrong, you’re saying that these threads are off-putting because they are conjuring up some sort of a specter of “White Supremacists” merely by expanding the European phenotype. I was saying that I don’t understand your sensitivity, because there aren’t really any on the prowl today, and that people who often get labeled as such aren’t even arguing that Whites/Europeans are superior across the board, but rather that various groups do people are differently adapted according to the environments in which they evolved. Whether or not you or I think that argument holds its salt isn’t relevant here, but rather, the fact that “White Supremacy” is not an issue in our time, and because it isn’t, it seems rather silly to me to be put off by threads about expanding a phenotype that is presently relatively rare.

Now, I agree that integrating the Italians and the Irish IOTL was something of a different beast than this would be, but it still stands to reason that without significant physical differences, integration is going to be a little easier than it was with OTL Natives, because the latter can be picked out of a crowd of Europeans while the former, this hypothetical “Europoid” Native group (probably genetically closer to Siberian’s yet nonetheless appearing European) would not be able to be. Does that make sense?

 

[Albert.Nik]

This doesn't make any sense at all and I can't really guess what you're trying to get at.

Okay,to make it clear,I am talking about a Roman influenced settlement in the New World. Since Celts were heavily influenced by the Romans later,I included them.

 

[Mightyboosh5]

Because, at least what I am reading, and perhaps I am wrong, you’re saying that these threads are off-putting because they are conjuring up some sort of a specter of “White Supremacists” merely by expanding the European phenotype. I was saying that I don’t understand your sensitivity, because there aren’t really any on the prowl today, and that people who often get labeled as such aren’t even arguing that Whites/Europeans are superior across the board, but rather that various groups do people are differently adapted according to the environments in which they evolved. Whether or not you or I think that argument holds its salt isn’t relevant here, but rather, the fact that “White Supremacy” is not an issue in our time, and because it isn’t, it seems rather silly to me to be put off by threads about expanding a phenotype that is presently relatively rare.

Now, I agree that integrating the Italians and the Irish IOTL was something of a different beast than this would be, but it still stands to reason that without significant physical differences, integration is going to be a little easier than it was with OTL Natives, because the latter can be picked out of a crowd of Europeans while the former, this hypothetical “Europoid” Native group (probably genetically closer to Siberian’s yet nonetheless appearing European) would not be able to be. Does that make sense?

i find it hilarious that you can be in italy and claim that there are no white supremacists left, the country where politicians have called black politiciains orangutans,the ex prime minister has claimed there is a state of emergency in terms of racist attacks, https://www.theguardian.com/comment...st-black-minister-racist-abuse-discrimination. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...can-descent-face-dire-picture-of-racism-in-eu

this is hardly an exaustive list as all i had to do was literally google italy racism.

We can split hairs all day over the definition of white supremacy, but the belief that there is a hierarchy of races in cognitive function (in which whites are higher up or at the top of the list) necessitating purely white countries, seems like a good definition. Hatred of non white groups in europe has been rising in recent years, personally i cant really agree that there are no white supremacists on the prowl, when me and non white friends have been harassed and nearly attacked by groups of skinhead men just for walking around at night in a english seaside town.

 

[Bassarion Korax]

i find it hilarious that you can be in italy and claim that there are no white supremacists left, the country where politicians have called black politiciains orangutans,the ex prime minister has claimed there is a state of emergency in terms of racist attacks, https://www.theguardian.com/comment...st-black-minister-racist-abuse-discrimination. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...can-descent-face-dire-picture-of-racism-in-eu

this is hardly an exaustive list as all i had to do was literally google italy racism.

We can split hairs all day over the definition of white supremacy, but the belief that there is a hierarchy of races in cognitive function (in which whites are higher up or at the top of the list) necessitating purely white countries, seems like a good definition. Hatred of non white groups in europe has been rising in recent years, personally i cant really agree that there are no white supremacists on the prowl, when me and non white friends have been harassed and nearly attacked by groups of skinhead men just for walking around at night in a english seaside town.

I could conjure up a considerably more exhaustive list of Left-wing politicians and media personalities gloating about sweeping demographic changes in White countries and talking about the need of indigenous White ethnic groups to assimilate to the culture of the migrants. I could also provide an exhaustive list of examples of Left-wing media personalities making deprecating comments about White people, usually to the tune of us not having a culture of our own because everything we have is stolen from somewhere else.

So what? This is the Pre-1900 section of an ALTERNATE HISTORY forum. If I were to make a proposition for how I think Hitler could have one WWII and asked the users here what they thought such a world would be like, would that represent an endorsement of Hitler’s views? I don’t think it would. It would be an alternate history proposal, one that I might find interesting (I’m actually not that interested in the period), but not necessarily moral or utopian. With that in mind, your coming in here and arguing that these kinds of threads are worrisome or otherwise off-putting because of some sort of looming phantom is more than pretentious.

 

[Mightyboosh5]

I could conjure up a considerably more exhaustive list of Left-wing politicians and media personalities gloating about sweeping demographic changes in White countries and talking about the need of indigenous White ethnic groups to assimilate to the culture of the migrants. I could also provide an exhaustive list of examples of Left-wing media personalities making deprecating comments about White people, usually to the tune of us not having a culture of our own because everything we have is stolen from somewhere else.

So what? This is the Pre-1900 section of an ALTERNATE HISTORY forum. If I were to make a proposition for how I think Hitler could have one WWII and asked the users here what they thought such a world would be like, would that represent an endorsement of Hitler’s views? I don’t think it would. It would be an alternate history proposal, one that I might find interesting (I’m actually not that interested in the period), but not necessarily moral or utopian. With that in mind, your coming in here and arguing that these kinds of threads are worrisome or otherwise off-putting because of some sort of looming phantom is more than pretentious.

I'd love to see your exhaustive list of anti white racism in europe and an explanation why we should care at all about such a ridiculous problem , i doubt you will produce that list. It must be fun to think racism against non white people isn't a problem in your home country and i hope you have a good time thinking that.

My point was never that its wrong to imagine worlds that are worse than ours, ive started numerous threads that do just that. Far right extremism isnt some looming phantom just ask poland hungary and ukraine. i cant make you be annoyed at this because you clearly dont care, atleast we can agree that terminology for time periods thousands of years ago should not use terms like white when they would almsot definitely butterfly those terms away. The main thing im annoyed at is just anachronistic use of the term white in time periods that are not applicable because it implies that these terms are scientific and would exist in all ATLs.

 

[Bassarion Korax]

I'd love to see your exhaustive list of anti white racism in europe and an explanation why we should care at all about such a ridiculous problem , i doubt you will produce that list. It must be fun to think racism against non white people isn't a problem in your home country and i hope you have a good time thinking that.

My point was never that its wrong to imagine worlds that are worse than ours, ive started numerous threads that do just that. Far right extremism isnt some looming phantom just ask poland hungary and ukraine. i cant make you be annoyed at this because you clearly dont care, atleast we can agree that terminology for time periods thousands of years ago should not use terms like white when they would almsot definitely butterfly those terms away. The main thing im annoyed at is just anachronistic use of the term white in time periods that are not applicable because it implies that these terms are scientific and would exist in all ATLs.

Lol.

Yeah, I’m really not, and I don’t care. Securing your borders and saying no to mass migration is not the same thing as arguing in favor of racial supremacy. Furthermore, whether or not you want to accept the reality that population groups tend to cluster together genetically, thus making them distinct visibly and in the lab isn’t really relevant to the discussion here. The question was whether or not the Natives appearing more similar to European colonists would affect their relationship with them and also how this would affect the sociological development of the colonies going forward.

 

[Mightyboosh5]

Lol.

Yeah, I’m really not, and I don’t care. Securing your borders and saying no to mass migration is not the same thing as arguing in favor of racial supremacy. Furthermore, whether or not you want to accept the reality that population groups tend to cluster together genetically, thus making them distinct visibly and in the lab isn’t really relevant to the discussion here. The question was whether or not the Natives appearing more similar to European colonists would affect their relationship with them and also how this would affect the sociological development of the colonies going forward.

cool

i really didnt think there would be anyone stupid enough to believe in race realism on this board but every day im surprised

 

[Siberian Tiger]

Even if you have North America settled from Europe, the three waves of settlement from Asia OTL show that settlement from Asia is inevitable and that Native American people probably won't look like Europeans by the time of first contact. If you handwave aside that, all that will change is the definition of whiteness. Remember that the idea of being white was a construct that was a product of European contact with Africa and the new world.

Yes, but just asking, how is settlement from Asia inevitable?

 

[Albert.Nik]

Yes, but just asking, how is settlement from Asia inevitable?

He mentioned about the Bering Strait,I think.

 

[trajen777]

It would have made no difference. It did not matter with the Greeks vs the Balkan tribes, or Rome vs germans, or Rome vs Brits. It's about land resources and control, or establishing defensible borders.