The Anglo/American - Nazi War
- Thread starter CalBear
- Start date
- Status
nbcman
Donor
It’s not nukes that are applying ‘justice’. If you continue, you’ll see all of the aspects of the fall of Nazism.
I agree. From what I read, most Nazi "research" was little more than an excuse to horrifically torture people.
https://allthatsinteresting.com/nazi-research
Bookmark1995
Banned
I can imagine a lot of Slavic people thinking that he's not being bloody-minded ENOUGH!
You know you're responding to posts from NINE YEARS AGO, right? I get that this is a good TL, but maybe finish up reading before commenting, rather than this intermittent play-by-play.
Deleted member 96212
I think you'd actually see the exact opposite happen; moral guardians would be stronger than ever, they could point to Nazi Germany as the perfect example of what happens when a society allows itself to become utterly enamored with violence. I mean really think about it - the vision of the Nazis considered sending every generation of German citizens to go wantonly murder people in Eastern Europe to be ideal.
You know, it kind of makes me think about all the societal problems a country like Nazi Germany would have at an individual level. Bullying would become a national epidemic, just to name one problem. Since strength, ruthlessness, and intelligence above all else are valued, millions of children who don't "measure up" are going to be tormented by their peers and probably teachers too.
Sure you can, but if you do, you're probably a paranoid schizophrenic.
Bookmark1995
Banned
Being on this TL, I've read about how people see the A4 as brutal dictators for their heavy-handed policies and harsh treatment of former German states.
But I haven't really given my two cents on the issue, and my response is: Can you forgive someone who murdered your family? Can you also forgive someone who bullied you so badly, they left permanent scars on you?
OTL, Germany was defeated, millions of lives were spared, West Germany became a free and prosperous nation, Israel emerged as a homeland for Holocaust survivors, etc.
TTL, Jewish Europe was made extinct (to the point that a Jewish state couldn't emerge), millions of Eastern Europeans were slaughtered through slave labor, the cultural heritage of Poland, Ukraine, and Western Russia utterly destroyed.
The Germans, apparently on some blood lust high, proceeded to launch attacks on America and Britain.
Even when Hitler suffered a stroke, his successors saw no reason to stop the war even though they were losing. In fact, they upped the insanity, barbarity, and assholery.
The City of Lights was reduced to a smoky crater (which was televised by the way), much of Western Europe's cultural heritage was lost, the dikes of Netherlands were destroyed, horrible pestilence was unleashed on European civilians, Soviet Russia was plunged into civil war, French farmland and infrastructure was destroyed, poison gas was used on French, Italian, and British civilians.
The Allies had a front row seat to the modern version of a Mongol massacre, in which not only are people killed, but their lands are rendered uninhabitable and their treasures are stolen or destroyed.
Himmler, despite everything he did, THEN had the nerve to demand medical supplies, showing a complete indifference to human suffering he caused, and ordered anyone who surrendered would be hung like traitors.
By the end of the war, Europe was left a diseased, apocalyptic MESS. OTL Europe was rebuilt in a decade, but TTL Europe suffered potentially irreversible destruction, in both lost lives, environmental damage, destroyed artifacts, economic infrastructure, etc.
And the Allies gave numerous, numerous chances for the Nazi leadership to go quietly. They hated having to fight a prolonged war, and tried to end it as quickly as possible. They diverted huge amounts of their resources to help a civilian population that a lesser person would've let starved.
As painful as dividing up Germany was, and later forcing decades of reparations on them, you have to give them credit for not doing MUCH WORSE! After all, Hitler felt savage races had no right to live, and the Germans fought to death for a truly savage leadership.
As of TTL 2019, these horrors are still within living memory, and the ITTL modern day leadership of the A4 are people who grew up hearing about these crimes. The still non-rebuilt ruins of Paris stand as a stark reminder of German aggression for those young people who have the luxury of not dying in a horrible war.
I find the uber-Wilsonian attitude of the A4 to be repugnant (peace and liberty, courtesy of a few space Swords of Damocles). But what they want, in the end, is that no other person should ever experience the mid-20th century. They aren't like OTL neoconservatives, but people trying to instill in others that war and mass murder is nothing but mankind reduced to his most basic instincts.
And if you choose to start a war anyways, well, it is hard for me to have pity from you when the A4 bring the hammer down on you.
Yes, the A4 should stop being controlling lunatics, but again, they are like prison guards watching over a truly heinous criminal, a truly vicious and deranged bully. Would you honestly feel upset if they battered that criminal and bully around? At least that prison guard is trying to rehabilitate that vicious criminal, and give him food.
But I haven't really given my two cents on the issue, and my response is: Can you forgive someone who murdered your family? Can you also forgive someone who bullied you so badly, they left permanent scars on you?
OTL, Germany was defeated, millions of lives were spared, West Germany became a free and prosperous nation, Israel emerged as a homeland for Holocaust survivors, etc.
TTL, Jewish Europe was made extinct (to the point that a Jewish state couldn't emerge), millions of Eastern Europeans were slaughtered through slave labor, the cultural heritage of Poland, Ukraine, and Western Russia utterly destroyed.
The Germans, apparently on some blood lust high, proceeded to launch attacks on America and Britain.
Even when Hitler suffered a stroke, his successors saw no reason to stop the war even though they were losing. In fact, they upped the insanity, barbarity, and assholery.
The City of Lights was reduced to a smoky crater (which was televised by the way), much of Western Europe's cultural heritage was lost, the dikes of Netherlands were destroyed, horrible pestilence was unleashed on European civilians, Soviet Russia was plunged into civil war, French farmland and infrastructure was destroyed, poison gas was used on French, Italian, and British civilians.
The Allies had a front row seat to the modern version of a Mongol massacre, in which not only are people killed, but their lands are rendered uninhabitable and their treasures are stolen or destroyed.
Himmler, despite everything he did, THEN had the nerve to demand medical supplies, showing a complete indifference to human suffering he caused, and ordered anyone who surrendered would be hung like traitors.
By the end of the war, Europe was left a diseased, apocalyptic MESS. OTL Europe was rebuilt in a decade, but TTL Europe suffered potentially irreversible destruction, in both lost lives, environmental damage, destroyed artifacts, economic infrastructure, etc.
And the Allies gave numerous, numerous chances for the Nazi leadership to go quietly. They hated having to fight a prolonged war, and tried to end it as quickly as possible. They diverted huge amounts of their resources to help a civilian population that a lesser person would've let starved.
As painful as dividing up Germany was, and later forcing decades of reparations on them, you have to give them credit for not doing MUCH WORSE! After all, Hitler felt savage races had no right to live, and the Germans fought to death for a truly savage leadership.
As of TTL 2019, these horrors are still within living memory, and the ITTL modern day leadership of the A4 are people who grew up hearing about these crimes. The still non-rebuilt ruins of Paris stand as a stark reminder of German aggression for those young people who have the luxury of not dying in a horrible war.
I find the uber-Wilsonian attitude of the A4 to be repugnant (peace and liberty, courtesy of a few space Swords of Damocles). But what they want, in the end, is that no other person should ever experience the mid-20th century. They aren't like OTL neoconservatives, but people trying to instill in others that war and mass murder is nothing but mankind reduced to his most basic instincts.
And if you choose to start a war anyways, well, it is hard for me to have pity from you when the A4 bring the hammer down on you.
Yes, the A4 should stop being controlling lunatics, but again, they are like prison guards watching over a truly heinous criminal, a truly vicious and deranged bully. Would you honestly feel upset if they battered that criminal and bully around? At least that prison guard is trying to rehabilitate that vicious criminal, and give him food.
A. Danov
Banned
I'm new to this board. Been lurking for awhile. Signed up to comment on this thread.
For the price of a far bloodier war, a better world than we have OTL has been bought.
The A4 are the finest, freest nations on Earth. I'd rather democracies control the world than any other alternative. Germany twice plunged the world into war, the second time in a way that defies description. That they continue to exist in any way is a mercy granted them by the A4.
Space is controlled solely by them. Anyone who so much as burps about aggressive war or re-unifying Germany dies. The human race is headed to Mars. Technology is further along, as are civil rights.
The only hurdle is China. My hope is that someone in China thinks "yeah this is nuts" leaks what they are doing to the A4, and then kinetics start to rain down from Shanghai to Kashgar.
India is competing the right way, by developing the deep seabed. After China gets thumped, I could see the A4 becoming the A5. And then its off to the races developing the solar system, with no peers to the A5 to be found on Earth.
And I don't understand the hand-wringing over how Japan was beaten. Put simply, they started it.
For the price of a far bloodier war, a better world than we have OTL has been bought.
The A4 are the finest, freest nations on Earth. I'd rather democracies control the world than any other alternative. Germany twice plunged the world into war, the second time in a way that defies description. That they continue to exist in any way is a mercy granted them by the A4.
Space is controlled solely by them. Anyone who so much as burps about aggressive war or re-unifying Germany dies. The human race is headed to Mars. Technology is further along, as are civil rights.
The only hurdle is China. My hope is that someone in China thinks "yeah this is nuts" leaks what they are doing to the A4, and then kinetics start to rain down from Shanghai to Kashgar.
India is competing the right way, by developing the deep seabed. After China gets thumped, I could see the A4 becoming the A5. And then its off to the races developing the solar system, with no peers to the A5 to be found on Earth.
And I don't understand the hand-wringing over how Japan was beaten. Put simply, they started it.
I think Calbear has made it very clear, no one else is ever going to be allowed to sit at the Big Table with the A4.
SsgtC
Banned
India kind of has at least a say with the A4. Not their "equal" but not someone who gets ignored either.
What happened with Fred Trump ITL? IIRC OTL he got investigated for profiteering. Given what happened ITL I don't see that being taken kindly to.
How about Roy Cohn?
How about Roy Cohn?
The scary/sad part is the way it is described it almost sounds like paradise for the average German before the war restarted. I can see why they would not want to give it up. Of course they are living in a delusional fantasy world built on the backs of slaves and mass murder. They live in a hellscape but they believe black is white and white black.
Last edited:
OTL Germans in Germany/Austria/Suedentenland and elsewhere saw their Jewish neighbors go away and were enriched by their goods, confiscation of businesses (or simply fewer competitors), taking over of university and civil service jobs, more university slots open, and so forth. Modern scholarship has shown that often direct knowledge of what went on, in letters and even photographs from family members serving in camp units or other units, was not restricted to a small circle. Whispers were widespread. Most Germans simply ignored these facts, choosing not to wonder about "the man behind the curtain". Here this has become institutionalized, and since even more so than in the past, slaves were not simply slaves but subhuman merely animals that talked, there was no concern about the cogs that made the machine work. To the extent anyone thought about it, it was right and proper that the Untermenschen labored for the benefit of the Aryans, one did not become upset that the labor of the draft horse went to the master who lived in a fine house while the horse lived in a barn.
It was Paradise, as long as you didn't peer behind the curtain, or think too long and hard about the condition of the occasional "guest worker" work crew (even though those who were likely to be seen by the Volk were, by far, the better treated and best appearing of theses poor souls). In a very real way it was similar to the upper classes of the Antebellum South, stay away from the slave quarters and things were very genteel.
The reality, of course, was vastly different. In both cases the luxury was quite literally built on a foundation of blood and death.
IF China China gets thumped.
The WAllied (e.g pre A4 alliance) personnel who were assigned to Occupation of Japan were pretty much horrified to the core by what the "Block and burn" strategy had wrought. Japan in this ATL collapsed in on itself due to mass starvation, not just from the blockade, but an active bombing campaign that made any sort of wheeled transportation or electric generating site a legitimate target. By the time the Japanese surrendered there were no big cities, not only because of the LeMay's bombers, although they certainly played a major role, but because the city dwellers had been forced to flee in hopes of finding food and perhaps a place that wouldn't wind up in a firestorm on some random evening. The WAllies had P-51s and Skyraiders strafing oxcarts and mules.
The personnel who were the first to land saw things that were close to what the troops who liberated the Nazi concentration camps did IOTL. The difference was those conditions were the result of aircraft with white stars of FAA/RAF roundels on their wings and naval gunfire from warships flying the Stars & Stripes or Union Jack. While it wasn't know by the term, most of the early occupation personnel wound up with PTSD to one degree or another.
Welcome to the Board.
Never thought about either of them.
I guess we can have 'ol Fred do a dime in the Federal can along with a $2,000,000 fine for profiteering and fraud starting in 1956.
Cohn is just the right age to get drafted 17 and a half seconds after he graduated from college and then recalled to active duty in 1954. He wound up in a U.S. Army Constabulary unit, first in Japan, then in France moving on with the advance into Germany. Demobilized in 1962 (didn't ring up a lot of points compared to personnel who earned a CIB and decoration with "V" device attachments). Worked in GE's law department until 1992 when he retired. Past commander of his local VFW chapter.
Bookmark1995
Banned
If Ira Levin ever wrote something like the Stepford Wives, I bet it would be more based off of Nazi Germany then 1950s Connecticut. Nazi Germany ITTL seems the closest thing possible to a real-life crapsaccharine world.
Someone ITTL would say something like this:
"Nazism, like Lucifer, had a clean, shiny exterior. The greatest evils hide behind facades of beauty."
How did the ITTL Civil rights movement go? And what role did MLK and Malcolm X play.
- Status