Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

@Planet of Hats does the sphinx still have a nose in your tl modern world?
The nose still exists, but the beard fell off. That said, it has a big dent in its neck, as one of the more rigorist Harabid rulers of Egypt tried to behead it in a fit of iconoclasm. He failed. There's also a big hideous dent in the hindquarters caused by excavating equipment in the far future.
 
Does Texcoco exist/established? I recall the Aztec beliefs in the city-state was more moderate and subdued on their sacrifices, like no human sacrifices and replace it with hummingbirds instead. It was also known as the Athens of the West, I think.
 
Does Texcoco exist/established? I recall the Aztec beliefs in the city-state was more moderate and subdued on their sacrifices, like no human sacrifices and replace it with hummingbirds instead. It was also known as the Athens of the West, I think.
Wait theres a meso-americans society that aren't khorne worshippers and don't fo human sacrifice?
 
Well, during the reign of Nazahualcoyotl, Coyote who fasts, at least. From April 28, 1402 – June 4, 1472. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nezahualcoyotl_(tlatoani)

Here's some selected parts from his wiki page. He might have been butterflied away though. But his people might be still at the area since they're Acolhua than Mexica.

"He is best remembered for his poetry, but according to accounts by his descendants and biographers, Fernando de Alva Cortés Ixtlilxóchitl and Juan Bautista Pomar, he had an experience of an "Unknown, Unknowable Lord of Everywhere" to whom he built an entirely empty temple in which no blood sacrifices of any kind were allowed — not even those of animals. However, he allowed human sacrifices to continue in his other temples."

"The friars that documented his life thought he was a pious man, though he was skeptical towards the indigenous gods that required human sacrifices. He practiced his faith in a peaceful way; in lieu of human sacrifice, he offered incense and fasted. He built a temple and prohibited human sacrifice in his city after he had fasted and prayed for the victory Texcoco had over Chalca. He allowed human sacrifices to continue in his other temples.

He also tried to convert neighboring cities to his faith, most especially Tenochtitlan. He gathered priests from Tenochtitlan which he used to aid in reconstructing the religious system in Texcoco. He restored the existing gods and temples but also reformed and modified the existing ones. He placed a greater importance on the Mexica god and built a large temple dedicated to Huitzilopochtli."

"Revered as a sage and poet-king, Nezahualcoyotl gathered a group of followers called the tlamatini, generally translated as "wise men". These men were philosophers, artists, musicians and sculptors who pursued their art in the court of Texcoco.

Nezahualcoyotl is credited with cultivating what came to be known as Texcoco's Golden Age, which brought the rule of law, scholarship and artistry to the city and set high standards that influenced surrounding cultures. Nezahualcoyotl designed a code of law based on the division of power, which created the councils of finance, war, justice and culture (the last actually called the "Council of Music"). Under his rule Texcoco flourished as the intellectual center of the Triple Alliance and was home to an extensive library that, tragically, did not survive the Spanish conquest. He also established an academy of music and welcomed worthy entrants from all regions of Mesoamerica.

Texcoco has been called "the Athens of the Western World"—to quote the historian Lorenzo Boturini Bernaducci. Indeed, the remains of hilltop gardens, sculptures and a massive aqueduct system show the impressive engineering skills and aesthetic appreciation of his reign.

Many believe, however, that of all the creative intellects nurtured by this Texcocan "Athens," by far the greatest belonged to the king himself. He is considered one of the great designers and architects of the pre-Hispanic era. He is said to have personally designed the "albarrada de Nezahualcoyotl" ("dike of Nezahualcoyotl") to separate the fresh and brackish waters of Lake Texcoco, a system that was still in use over a century after his death."
 
Maybe they'll even pick up on the Mesoamerican ballgame, get good at it and once again remind the universe that Iberians are the best football players:p
Unfortunately for the Iberians though, calling the Mesoamerican ballgame "football" would be rather inappropriate as its largely played with the hips and so their talents won't be transferring over.

Football it is not, but the ballgame sport is somewhat similar to that of Sepak Takraw, so our Andalusis might become more acrobatic in ball sports instead! The locals are more flexible though. #Mayansdoitbetter


Ah, that's a real shame then. The only Mesoamerican city that i am familiar with is this one, and after reading much about it I have become a bit of what you can call a fanboy [...]Damn, if any of the other cities in Mesoamerica look anything like that i wouldn't be surprised if the Andalusis label the natives as great city-builders and incorporate some of their style to their own architecture.

Mexico-Tenochtitlan is the most beautiful jewel of the New World, and it's a brilliant introduction to anyone who's interested in the land's culture. But it wasn't the land's only flower. Mesoamerica was flushed with kingdoms, city-states, and confederacies, with every capital built and decorated on its own way. Cholula has been mentioned, with some sources estimating a population of over 100,000 as a pilgrimage center for the worshiping of Quetzalcoatl the Feathered Serpent (also known as Kukulkan in the Maya lands). There was also the Otomi city of Metztitlan, which actually served as a refuge for nobles fleeing the Aztec empire IOTL, so maybe an analogue exists ITTL for all the region's grumpy nobles too.

The coasts were also dotted with cities and towns, with the most notable being the prosperous Maya towns of Tulum and Lamanai. The former actually lasted several decades into the Spanish conquest while the latter actually succeeded in driving them out! If their analogues exist in the MiaJ-verse, they would be the first cities the Andalusis shall spot, and I think they are already impressive enough for the explorers to label them as great city-builders.


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I could see some Muslim scholars argue that Texcoco was a throwback or heavily corrupted version of the teachings of a previous American Prophet that God had sent in the past and thus they could be granted Dhimmi status.
 
Does Texcoco exist/established? I recall the Aztec beliefs in the city-state was more moderate and subdued on their sacrifices, like no human sacrifices and replace it with hummingbirds instead. It was also known as the Athens of the West, I think.

[Everything about Nazahualcoyotl and Texcoco]

I could see some Muslim scholars argue that Texcoco was a throwback or heavily corrupted version of the teachings of a previous American Prophet that God had sent in the past and thus they could be granted Dhimmi status.

The king and city kinda reminded me of the guy that called himself Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl who ruled the Toltecs, though this might be me mixing up this TL with Land of Sweetness.
 
Got some questions about this western islam?

Whats the facial hair situation with this western Islam do we still need beards?

Does this islam still have the culture effect where these muslims use muslim names or there own native names?

Woman's rights?

Fasting?

Sexuality etc, is it harem for fun times outside marriage and LGBT stuff, are lesbians and gay people open in society?
 
Got some questions about this western islam?

Whats the facial hair situation with this western Islam do we still need beards?

Does this islam still have the culture effect where these muslims use muslim names or there own native names?

Woman's rights?

Fasting?

Sexuality etc, is it harem for fun times outside marriage and LGBT stuff, are lesbians and gay people open in society?

I believe you can find everything you need to know about women's rights in relation to Islam in the Surah an Nisa. Then again, women's rights have never been an issue in the Ummah. That is a western concept. In fact the idea of individual rights in general is a western idea. The more traditional ummah concerns itself with the needs of the community. I would be sceptical of some kind of 'western Islam' that deviates too far from the Sunnah. It seems like an excuse for behaviours that are not part of the Islamic tradition. Either something is Islamic, or it isn't. Just my thoughts.

If people want to break away, that would be Secularism, imo. Separation of religion and state is a more modern concept and not sure if it fits this TL though.
 
Got some questions about this western islam?

Whats the facial hair situation with this western Islam do we still need beards?

Does this islam still have the culture effect where these muslims use muslim names or there own native names?

Woman's rights?

Fasting?

Sexuality etc, is it harem for fun times outside marriage and LGBT stuff, are lesbians and gay people open in society?
Western Islam is still Islam. The doctrinal difference is related not to grand-scale divergences in the framework of sharia, but in a dispute over the correct succession of the Caliphate.

As of the Crossing, beards are considered mandatory for Muslim men. The beard is considered a mark of status and masculinity, saying nothing of its religious significance, and an entire industry exists to provide maintenance products for the beard. Some of them involve grapeseed oil; in fact, selling beard oil which includes this is one way illegal wine and brandy producers explain away the existence of their vineyards. If ever you meet a man who owns a vineyard and sells raisins and beard oil, especially if he lives in Sheresh, he's probably an illegal vintner.

Most Muslims, as you've probably seen, have adopted Arabic names at this point, but local names also slip through. It's not unusual for Andalusis, for example, to use names like Gharsiya (Garcia), Sanshu (Sancho), Bilayu (Pelagio) and other Arabized versions of Hispano-Roman names, similar to how Berbers will use Berber names like Tumart, Ziri, Tashfin and Atiyya. This is not far off how things went OTL.

Women are notable in the west - Andalusia is the "meme example," but actually West Africa is the real offender here - because of the tendency to be more lenient about hijab than their counterparts in Arabia and Mesopotamia. Most women in the commons will wear the khimar, but in general, the veiling tradition is weaker both here and in the Maghreb, save those areas where Zahiri and more rigorist interpretations of Maliki predominate (e.g. in Sale you can get away with a small and stylish khimar with a nice pattern on it, while in Sijilmasa you put your life at risk if you wear one with a pattern and don't cover your face) - and that's mostly because the veiling tradition actually predates Islam in areas where Islam originated, but has much less of a basis in Spain and the Maghreb. Religious authorities don't condone women going around without the khimar by any means. Women who don't wear a headscarf tend to be seen as extremely headstrong and rebellious; the likes of OTL's Wallada bint al-Mustakfi or ITTL's Majin (who often went about without a khimar) should be taken not as the standard, but as remarkable figures. That said, while most jurists in Al-Andalus and the Maghreb will tell you to cover your head, they almost universally take the view that it is not fard to cover the face and hands (there is, in other words, no tradition of garments like the niqab, save in very conservative areas - indeed, it's seen as weird by most mainstream Andalusis), and the typical khimar worn in an Andalusian city tends to be lighter and smaller than one you might see in Mecca. Covering the head is still important, but whether it extends to veiling, in other words, largely depends on how much the group in question already had a tradition of face covering.

West Africa, meanwhile, has been slow to conform to mainline Maliki jurisprudence on matters of women and hijab. It's common for women in these societies to play outsized roles in the household and to not cover not just the head, but parts of the upper body. This is steadily changing in parts of the Sudan where contact with the Andalusians is most regular; in Tekrur and the New Cities region of Senegambia, for instance, women cover their head and bosom in the style of the Andalusians.

LGBT people are hard to place because of medieval Islam having a bit of a wobbly, contradictory relationship with the subject. While a lot of Andalusian love poetry is implicitly homoerotic and we know that there were caliphs who kept male lovers, and there's certainly evidence that homosexuality and homoeroticism were things that the elite class in Al-Andalus did, that doesn't imply the consent of God or the religious authorities - though when it's the Caliph, I guess maybe it does. A lot of poetry on the topic tends to be couched vaguely: For instance, it'll often be unclear if a love poem is addressing a woman or a man. ITTL, the situation is similar, though it's moderated a bit because the Hizamids are marginally more rigorous than the later Saqlabids and Al-Mustanjid was a marginally more active Caliph than his toothless and decadent forebears. Generally, though, the qadi can't be everywhere or respond to everything, and gay people in Andalusia are careful either to be discreet or to be the Caliph. While your local jurist might come after you for having a same-sex lover just as he would for adultery, he's gotta know about it first. Broadly, jurists tend to hold to the position that homosexual relationships cannot ever be lawful because they are by definition not taking place within the bounds of the marriage.

Basically the gaps between sharia and practice are explainable by what's true about all religions: The letter of the law is not always the practice of the law, and no society is perfectly rigorist or immune to a little decadence. It's why arch-rigorists and the Veiled Sanhaja tend to view Andalusians and city Berbers as decadent wretches, while the city Berbers and Andalusians tend to view the Veiled Sanhaja and arch-rigorists as pedantic Kharijites who read things into hadith that aren't there.
 
Got some questions about this western islam?

Whats the facial hair situation with this western Islam do we still need beards?

Does this islam still have the culture effect where these muslims use muslim names or there own native names?

Woman's rights?

Fasting?

Sexuality etc, is it harem for fun times outside marriage a


This is my take on your question about beards ITTL. Because most of the others have been covered by @Planet of Hats All of the Five Madhabs (including the Maliki Madhab) IOTL considers beards Fardh or Obligatory except for the Shafi'i Madhab which considers it mustahabb or recommended for Believing Men to keep a beard and Makruh (disliked but not Haram or Forbidden) to trim it or to shave it off. Historically the Shafi'i Madhab was much more prominent in the Middle East than the Hanafi Madhab until the period of the Turkic Migrations. Even then for a period of time the Seljuks favoured the Shafi'i Madhab over the Hanafi Madhab and only adopted it later in the Empire's History. One thing I've noticed is that it hasn't yet been mentioned (or maybe I'm just blind :p) which nations follow which Madhab but If I'd have to hazard a guess the Bataids would most likely be Hanafis. A big change from OTL is that Persia isn't or hasn't been subjugated by the Mongols or ITTL the Naimans and that it is under a Kurdified Turkish Dynasty. Historically Persian Ulama was split between the Shafi'i and Hanafi Schools of Thought. The Ghaznavids whom ITTL don't exist followed the Hanafi Madhab. An example of a Shafi'i Dynasty are the Safavids (before they went Shia).

The Mongols were generally neutral in the debate between the two Madhabs. So much so that an instance is reported of a Mongol Ilkhan, Qutlugh-Shah threatening to revert to Shamanism if the disputes between Shafi'i and Hanafi Madhabs didn't end. With the dynasty ruling over Persia being Kurdified there is a high probability that Persia is Shafi'i. The Hanafi Madhab having a strong tradition in the region with even Imam Abu Hanifa (The founder of the Madhab) being a persian it is likely that Hanafi School maintains a presence in the region.

The Arabian Peninsular would be largely split by region: Shafi'i Hijaz and Yemen, Hanbali Najd and Gulf, Ibadis in Oman, Shi'as everywhere else. As a consequence of Yemen being Shafi'i is that Aceh almost certainly follows the Shafi'i Madhab simply by proxy as the Yemeni Traders who brought Islam to the shores of Southeast Asia were themselves mostly Shafi'is. The other Muslim Merchants were either also Shafi'is having themselves been converted to Islam by the Yemenis or were largely unimportant or unconcerned with proselytization. The Omanis fall into the latter half of the second group as they did not actively proselytize. The Shi'a's were too weak and unimportant to draw the admiration of the Rajas of Malaya and furthermore conversion to either Ismai'lism (Posssesing great political and economic power as a community but otherwise plagued by schism after schism and spread thin throughout the subcontinent) or Twelver Shi'ism (The Opposite of the Isma'ilis. Largely concentrated in Iraq with pockets in the Gulf. No Major Schisms but possessing very little in the way of political influence aside from behind the scenes Buyid-style conspiratorial shit) would be politically inexpedient.

Egypt before the advent of the Ottoman Empire mostly followed the Shafi'i Madhab. But on the border regions with Libya there were Bedu who followed the Maliki Madhab and in Syria and Lebanon those who followed the Hanafi Madhab.

In conclusion, ironically (from a Religious Angle) it is more likely for the Eastern Portion of the Islamic World to go beardless than the Western Portion ITTL.
 
One thing I've noticed is that it hasn't yet been mentioned (or maybe I'm just blind :p) which nations follow which Madhab....
Let me take a swing at that.

Broadly speaking, Maliki is the predominant madhhab west of Egypt, while Shafi'i and Hanafi are competitive in the Sunni world east of Egypt. Hanafi is seen as "the madhhab of Turks," and it's most popular on the Steppes, in Tabaristan, in Persia and in Rumaniyah. Hanbali enjoys no state patronage, much like Zahiri. Basically the big three are Shafi'i, Hanafi and Maliki.

Sunni:
Maliki (Umayyad Caliph): Hizamid Andalus; Asmarid Maghrib; semi-independent Tiaret; the Igiderids of Ifriqiya; the Kaledats; Tekrur and the New Cities in the region.
Maliki, syncretic with shamanism: The Manden Kurufaba. Kanem-Bornu. Some of the Hausa.
Maliki: Some Bedouins in Egypt and Berbers in eastern Ifriqiya.
Zahiri: Various small Berber groups. Sijilmasa in the Maghreb. The Godala Berbers of Awlil.
Zahiri (Mahdist): The Blue Army.
Shafi'i: The Harabids of Egypt and Hejaz (after a brief dip into Hanafi); some of the Bataid vassals in Syria and Sham; the Sunni emirates in Yemen; the restored Abbasids; the Mezinids of Persia; the Aceh Sultanate; the Zeila Sultanate; the Warsheikh Sultanate and most of Somalia; the Kilwa confederation; the Sogdian and Persianate subjects of the Naimans and the Altai Taban Horde.
Hanafi: The Bataids, including some in Syria; the Legzins of Lakz; a huge chunk of vassals of the Mezinids, especially Turkmens in Tabaristan; the Gurkhanate; the Tarazids of northern India; the Kyrgyz of the Kaban Khanate; Karluk and some Persianate subjects of the Naimans and the Altai Taban Horde.
Hanbali: A handful of guys in Nejd and the Gulf coast; officially suppressed by the Abbasids.

Shi'a:
Twelvers (various schools): A lot of mainline people in Iran and Mesopotamia; a big chunk of the eastern coast of the Arabian Peninsula on into part of the UAE. A few diaspora communities in the Levant, India and Indochina. Some Persianate subjects of the Altai Taban Horde.
Ismaili: The post-Hilalian emirates (the Abdanids of Al-Muqurra, Mukhalladids of Dunqulah and Ghanimids of Alwa). The Ganda Emirate. The nomadic Lala and Addi peoples. Some of the Masai. A handful of Yemeni highlanders. Some former Fatimid officials who fled to India.
Zaydi: Most of the highlanders of Yemen and southern Hejaz.

Others:
Ibadi: The Sama'ids and other Banu Azd branches in Oman. Some Veiled Sanhaja south of Ifriqiya.
Kharijites: Some of the Veiled Sanhaja.



I'll eventually do a religion map.
 
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No words to describe how cool Isma'ili Maasai ITTL is.

On Somalia (since I must always take an inordinate amount of interest in events there) did the Suldaans of Warsheikh convert to Shafi'i thought coming out of Mogadishu at some point? They themselves were Maliki, from most sources I can find, though that was a product of each coastal trade city doing its own thing religiously until the unification.
 
I could see some Muslim scholars argue that Texcoco was a throwback or heavily corrupted version of the teachings of a previous American Prophet that God had sent in the past and thus they could be granted Dhimmi status.

ISA BIN MARYAM DIED IN TEOTIHUACAN, THE TEMPLE OF THE SUN IS HIS TOMB
THUS SPAKE GHULAM MIRZA BIN MOCTEZUMA, MAHDI AND MASIH
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The discussions and theories about Dhul Qarnayn and the place where he imprisoned Ghog and Maghog will get some new fuel. Especially with the human sacrifices and canibalism.
 
No words to describe how cool Isma'ili Maasai ITTL is.

On Somalia (since I must always take an inordinate amount of interest in events there) did the Suldaans of Warsheikh convert to Shafi'i thought coming out of Mogadishu at some point? They themselves were Maliki, from most sources I can find, though that was a product of each coastal trade city doing its own thing religiously until the unification.
They've steadily become more influenced by elites from Mogadishu, yes. It's a little more advantageous for them because a lot of their trading partners are Shafi'i, too, though at this point the madhhab differences don't really affect trade that much, since most of their partners are already Muslim.

The discussions and theories about Dhul Qarnayn and the place where he imprisoned Ghog and Maghog will get some new fuel. Especially with the human sacrifices and canibalism.
"What do you mean Gog and Magog weren't in the east all along?!"

Then again, Gog and Magog do live near the world sea....
 
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