A world war with a country other than Germany as the main "bad guy"?

Nephi

Banned
Condottiero said:
WWII starts as IOTL, but after USSR attacks Finland, France and UK declare war on the USSR. After Germany defeats France on the west, Stalin thinks "we have won, why do I have to share Europe with Hitler?" and he backstabs Germany...
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That's a good one.
 

Tiro

Look, I know we all Love villains with British Accents - a car advert said so and so it must be true - but that doesn't mean you have to make us the Villains in everything! (It's only paranoia if you believe that this thread wasn't set up for the specific purpose of making Britain the aggressor in a World War ... so it's probably EXTREME Paranoia then!).;)
 

alexmilman

Tiro said:
Look, I know we all Love villains with British Accents - a car advert said so and so it must be true - but that doesn't mean you have to make us the Villains in everything! (It's only paranoia if you believe that this thread wasn't set up for the specific purpose of making Britain the aggressor in a World War ... so it's probably EXTREME Paranoia then!).;)
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Nothing personal, just picking a country which by the late XIX was trying to dictate to a maximum number of countries what they should or should not do. And, as for the nature of you complaint, look at how many posts are about wanking Britain in one form or another so we are not even remotely close to a balanced picture of the world. ;)
 

stevej713

Russia (the Soviet Union) is an obvious contender. In the interwar period, it definitely appeared as though the Soviets were on a crash course with the West. Butterfly away the Nazis and keep the internationalist element in power in the USSR, and presto - you have a world war between the USSR and an anti-Soviet coalition.

Hell, even before the rise of the Soviets, Tsarist Russia was one of the most infamous states in the world with its proven record of autocracy, antisemitism, and ethnic cleansing, not to mention its frightening size. It's not a stretch to imagine a rekindling of the Great Game which sparks a general war in Eastern Europe.
 
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HistoricalArthropod

Banned
Hmm. These are all interesting ideas. Though, what would happen to a Britain and/or Russia that lost an industrial world war? Would it be similar to what happened to Germany otl?
 

Kaze

Banned
How about a war against the Soviet Union? Anything from 1918 to its fall could in theory could suffice.
 

NiGHTS

You can have Britain be the bad guy having them lose a major war, and then tarred and feathered as being the one who has been causing wars in Europe in order to preserve a dangerous balance of power, instead of just letting one war happen and letting Europe be ruled peacefully under one power, thus preventing future wars for power over the region.
 
SealTheRealDeal

SealTheRealDeal

No Nazis, because it's really hard to prevent OTL's WWII while they're around, Japan gets sick of Britain and France selling weapons to the Chinese and launches it's southern war plan (perhaps foregoing the attacks on the US until after Japan has pushed the allies east of Singapore and acquired the DEI oil fields, as something of a Hitler attacking the USSR analogue). On one hand TTL there's no European theatre to distract the Allies, on the other TTL the lower threat of war in Europe means the Allied armies are weaker in general.

With no Holocaust to overshadow them, the Japanese War Crimes get the scrutiny they deserve.
 

HistoricalArthropod

Banned
Hmm. These are all good ideas. But, I wonder. What would happen to a Britain or Russia that losg a world war? Would they be dismantled like Germany otl?
 

Citycat

HistoricalArthropod said:
With a pod no early than 1880, how can we get a world war with a country other than Germany as the main "bad guy"?

Like, could there be a world where Britain or France rather than Germany are the 'enemy' ruled by a genocidal megalomaniac that are then crushed by the allies? Maybe Russia? Hell, maybe even a non European country like China?

Is this plausible? Or is Germany just uniquely suited to fill such a position?
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To be honest, it is very difficult with an 1880 POD.

You can't really have Britain as the antagoniser. They were the "number one" world power, who had built the international political system around itself for most of the 19th century, so were the "status quo" country who would defend the current order, not try to rock the boat.

An 1880 POD for France is too late given their relative decline against the other powers.

Russia, China and the US are certainly possibilities, as they are all large countries with the potential to shake up the order, but you would need major changes to their domestic politics (and in Russia and China's case, it's economic development) to be antagonisers. However, they also all had large land areas, plentiful natural resources and agriculture, and could dominate in their own backyards, so were not really chasing a "place in the sun" like Germany was.

Japan's power limited it to being a regional "bad guy".

And Germany was in a unique position, it was an economically developed power like the Western democracies, but it had a political system that allowed for it to become the way it was. The other world powers either had developed economies with democratic political systems, so were less prone to starting a World War, or were autocratic countries that were too weak and under developed to start a costly World War.

Germany was in the unique situation of having all of this - the economic strength of the democracies and a political system that gave the Kaiser enough control to impose his will on the world in a less responsible manner than a democracy would.
 

HistoricalArthropod

Banned
martymcfly said:
To be honest, it is very difficult with an 1880 POD.

You can't really have Britain as the antagoniser. They were the "number one" world power, who had built the international political system around itself for most of the 19th century, so were the "status quo" country who would defend the current order, not try to rock the boat.

An 1880 POD for France is too late given their relative decline against the other powers.

Russia, China and the US are certainly possibilities, as they are all large countries with the potential to shake up the order, but you would need major changes to their domestic politics (and in Russia and China's case, it's economic development) to be antagonisers. However, they also all had large land areas, plentiful natural resources and agriculture, and could dominate in their own backyards, so were not really chasing a "place in the sun" like Germany was.

Japan's power limited it to being a regional "bad guy".

And Germany was in a unique position, it was an economically developed power like the Western democracies, but it had a political system that allowed for it to become the way it was. The other world powers either had developed economies with democratic political systems, so were less prone to starting a World War, or were autocratic countries that were too weak and under developed to start a costly World War.

Germany was in the unique situation of having all of this - the economic strength of the democracies and a political system that gave the Kaiser enough control to impose his will on the world in a less responsible manner than a democracy would.
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Hmm, well, I didn't stay the world war had to be the first one. So, maybe ww1 is Germany successful breaking the status quo and making a new one, and imposing harsh treaties on France/Britain/Russia (take your pick). And whi ever lost the previous war will come back for a round 2, frothing at the mouth to re establish the old order. How about that?
 

Fan of Alternate History

Reisen Storm said:
I got you on this. The First World War starts around the 1860's the reason is due to the American Civil War. England & France sides with the Confederates States of America (the Specific POD is on you), in doing so the Czar declares war on UK and France for helping the Confederates. Prussia was busy doing its own thing declares neutrality, but they are Pro-Union, so I wouldn't be surprised if they send Volunteers. Austria Empire sides with France and Uk due to Emperor Maximillian of Mexico, The rest of the European powers are undecided on what to do (Let you decide).
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I think this would be a good timeline.
What if the European powers got involved in US Civil War.
 

Fan of Alternate History

Letum said:
Hitler is murdered by an unknown individual upon leaving Prison, resulting in a continuously fractuous and weak Weimar regime and a Germany that remains disarmed.

However this leaves Stalin unchallenged in his domination of Eastern Europe, and in the 1950s a fully industrialised Soviet Army marches into an unprepared and divided Europe that is too busy squabbling with itself to unite and coordinate against the Russian giant until it is too late.

Aided by local socialist insurgents that have been fueled by an even longer Great Depression, the Soviet Army marches all the way into France, and soon it looks like the British may be the last free peoples in Europe, with the US unwilling to help following a casualty heavy war with Japan in the Pacific.

But the European Allies rally, eventually smashing the Soviet War machine.
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Sounds familiar. 😉
 
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GDIS Pathe

GDIS Pathe

HistoricalArthropod said:
Hmm, well, I didn't stay the world war had to be the first one. So, maybe ww1 is Germany successful breaking the status quo and making a new one, and imposing harsh treaties on France/Britain/Russia (take your pick). And whi ever lost the previous war will come back for a round 2, frothing at the mouth to re establish the old order. How about that?
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If Germany wins everyone else too to weak to challenge her without the US joining in
 
GDIS Pathe

GDIS Pathe

HistoricalArthropod said:
Why so? Clearly Germany was strong enough after loosing ww1 to come back for round 2. Even if France and Russia are in shambles, I can see Britain having the strength for a come back.
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Germany was the strongest single power in Europe who was only successfully held down by fighting almost every single other Great power. She was strong enough to come back because Germany is an incredibly strong military and industrial power Britain with all due respect is not as strong as Germany and does not have the same capability to recover or to fight
 
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