TL 191 HOI4 Mod Update and Discussion Thread

[Zoidberg12]

Here are my recommendations for the ideologies and some of the leaders of a Timeline 191 HOI4 mod. This is actually something I wrote a while ago, thinking about what a Timeline 191 HOI4 mod would look like, and it seems appropriate to post now. I edited and added some of the ideologies. Lastly, I may re-post this and add some more leaders and add political party names latter. I hope to have a list of all leaders for all European and American nations before soon.

I would also highly recommend using the Timeline 191-Filling the Gaps Thread as a model for the leaders and politics of this mod.

Ideologies

Communism
Syndicalism
Socialism
Social Democracy
Liberalism
Centrism
Conservatism
Paternalism
Despotism
Actionism

USA

Communism: Earl Browder
Syndicalism: ????
Socialism: William Z. Foster
Social Democracy: Alfred E. Smith*
Liberalism: Robert Taft
Centrism: Herbert Hoover
Conservatism: Wendell Willkie
Paternalism: ????
Despotism: Daniel MacArthur
Actionism: William Dudley Pelley

CSA

Communism: ????
Syndicalism: ????
Socialism: ????
Social Democracy: Huey Long
Liberalism: Ainsworth Layne
Centrism: ????
Conservatism: Carter Glass
Paternalism: Cordell Hull
Despotism: Clarence Potter
Actionism: Jake Featherston*

Germany

Communism: Ernst Thalmann
Syndicalism: Rudolf Rocker
Socialism: ????
Social Democracy: Wilhelm II/Otto Wels*
Liberalism: Wilhelm II/Eduard Dingeldey
Centrism: Wilhelm II/Heinrich Bruning
Conservatism: Wilhelm II/Konrad Adenauer
Paternalism: Wilhelm II/Alfred Hugenberg
Despotism: Wilhelm II/Kurt von Schleicher
Actionism: Wilhelm II/Rudolf Hess

United Kingdom

Communism: Harry Pollitt
Syndicalism: Tom Mann
Socialism: James Maxton
Social Democracy: George V and Edward VIII/Clement Attlee
Liberalism: George V and Edward VIII/Archibald Sinclair
Centrism: George V and Edward VIII/John Simon
Conservatism: George V and Edward VIII/Winston Churchill
Paternalism: George V and Edward VIII/Winston Churchill*
Despotism: George V and Edward VIII/Winston Churchill
Actionism: Edward VIII/Oswald Mosely

France

Communism: Maurice Thorez
Syndicalism: Hubert Lagardelle
Socialism: Marcel Déat
Social Democracy: Leon Blum
Liberalism: Édouard Daladier
Centrism: Louis Marin
Conservatism: Pierre-Étienne Flandin
Paternalism: François de La Rocque
Despotism: Charles De Gaulle
Actionism: Charles XI/Philippe Henriot*

Italy

Communism: Palmiro Togliatti
Syndicalism: Alceste De Ambris
Socialism: ????
Social Democracy: Victor Emmanuel III/ Ferrucio Parri*
Liberalism: Victor Emmanuel III/Ivanoe Bonomi
Centrism: Victor Emmanuel III/Luigi Einaudi
Conservatism: Victor Emmanuel III/Alcide de Gaspieri
Paternalism: Victor Emmanuel III/Emilio de Bono
Despotism: Victor Emmanuel III/Pietro Badoglio
Actionism: Victor Emmanuel III/Benito Mussolini

Austria-Hungary/Danubia

Communism: Johann Koplenig
Syndicalism: ????
Socialism: Otto Bauer
Social Democracy: Karl I/Karl Renner
Liberalism: Karl I/????
Centrism: Karl I/????
Conservatism: Karl I/Julius Raab*
Paternalism: Karl I/Wilhelm Miklas
Despotism: Karl I/????
Actionism: Karl I/Englebert Dolfuss

Russia

Communism: Nikolai Bukharin
Syndicalism: Stepan Maximovich Petrichenko
Socialism: Viktor Chernov
Social Democracy: Aleksander Kerensky
Liberalism: Pavel Mulikov
Centrism: ????
Conservatism: ????
Paternalism: Micheal III/Anton Denikin
Despotism: Micheal III/Pyotr Wrangel
Actionism: Micheal III/Alexander Kolchak*

Spain

Communism: Jose Ramos Diaz
Syndicalism: Juan Garcia Oliver
Socialism: Joaquín Maurín Juliá
Social Democracy: Alfonso XIII/Francisco Largo Caballero
Liberalism: Alfonso XIII/Niceto Alcalá-Zamora
Centrism: Alfonso XIII/Alejandro Lerroux
Conservatism: Alfonso XIII/José María Gil-Robles y Quiñones*
Paternalism: Alfonso XIII/José Calvo Sotelo
Despotism: Alfonso XIII/Jose Sanjuro
Actionism: Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera

Brazil

Communism: Luis Carlos Prestes
Syndicalism: Edgard Leuenroth
Socialism: ????
Social Democracy: Dom Pedro III/????
Liberalism: Dom Pedro III/Julio Prestes
Centrism: Dom Pedro III/Cândido Rondon
Conservatism: Dom Pedro III/Artur Bernardes*
Paternalism: Dom Pedro III/????
Despotism: Dom Pedro III/Pedro Aurélio de Góis Monteiro
Actionism: Dom Pedro III/Plinio Salgado

*=Leader at 1936 start date.

 

[Marklin]

Currently, there are two Fascist Ideologies in the mod: Supremacism and Unitism:
Supremacism is a totalitarian Ultra Nationalist ideology, and modeled from the base Fascism in-game. Unitism is a Monarchist authoritarian Ideology with some good old 19th Century Imperialist stuff thrown in.

 

[Landser03]

Paternalism: Wilhelm II/Alfred Hugenberg

Wouldn’t Franz von Papen or Kurt von Schleicher make a lot more sense?

 

[Zoidberg12]

Wouldn’t Franz von Papen or Kurt von Schleicher make a lot more sense?

I made Von Schleicher the despotism leader.

 

[Zoidberg12]

Heres two more for tonight.

Netherlands

Communism: David Wijnkoop
Syndicalism: Christiaan Cornelissen
Socialism: Henk Sneevliet
Social Democracy: Wilhelmina/Willem Schermerhorn
Liberalism: Wilhelmina/Pieter Oud
Centrism: Wilhelmina/Dirk Jan de Geer
Conservatism: Wilhelmina/Hendrikus Colijn*
Paternalism: Wilhelmina/Carel Gerretson
Despotism: Wilhelmina/Hendrik Seyffardt
Actionism: Wilhelmina/Anton Mussert

Norway

Communism: Adam Egede-Nissen
Syndicalism: Malfred Bergseth
Socialism: Olav Scheflo
Social Democracy: Haakon VII/Johan Nygaardsvold
Liberalism: Haakon VII/Johan Ludwig Mowinckel*
Centrism: Haakon VII/Jens Hundseid
Conservatism: Haakon VII/Ivar Lykke
Paternalism: Haakon VII/Ingolf Elster Christensen
Despotism: Haakon VII/Carl Gustav Fleischer
Actionism: Haakon VII/Vidkun Quisling

 

[Worffan101]

I mean the problem you have is the USA will suck to play because the nazi rebels will get ridiculous buffs to be a challenge.

That reminds me, what would your take on Tl-191 that you put up a while back look like in *ww2? I know there's a cover of it on deviantart but that has a lot of plausibility issues, especially the commie British Empire.

 

[Von Tyrconnell]

The Easter Rising succeeded in TL-191, right?

Ireland

Communism: James Larkin
Syndicalism: James Connolly
Socialism: Michael Mallin
Social Democracy: William Norton
Liberalism: Sean Lemass
Centrism: Patrick Pearse*
Conservatism: James Dillon
Paternalism: Michael Collins
Despotism: Dan Breen
Actionism: Eoin O'Duffy

 

[Alterwright]

So, what does China look like in this mod? How's it divided up?

 

[Tiro]

USA

Communism: Earl Browder
Syndicalism: ????
Socialism: William Z. Foster
Social Democracy: Alfred E. Smith*
Liberalism: Robert Taft
Centrism: Herbert Hoover
Conservatism: Wendell Willkie
Paternalism: ????
Despotism: Daniel MacArthur
Actionism: William Dudley Pelley

Poor old Charles W. LaFollette gets no respect, as usual!

Now I was inches away from suggesting we use Hosea Blackford for "Paternalism" (given he's basically a Team Dad, at least as I see him) but given he's quite, quite dead by this point in the Timeline that would be just a TOUCH out of kilter; I'm also not sure it would suit the Socialist Party ethos as well as it would the 191 Dems.

However, since Paternalism is a fairly "Patrician" attitude, why not use one of Theodore Roosevelt's sons? (You could possibly make a reasonable case for TR being as much a Paternalist as anything and the fact that Mr Roosevelt is effectively THE Greatest Hero President in Modern American History makes it somewhat curious that we never really hear very much about his heirs throughout the remainder of the SOUTHERN VICTORY novels*); I'm tempted to suggest Quentin Roosevelt - to drive home that this is an Alternate History and also because after the late 1930s he'd be roughly the right age to act as a slightly older Thomas E. Dewey.

QR was born in November 1897, so in 1936 he'd be 38 or 39 (though one suspects he'd be better advised to run in 1940; he'd be a convincingly youthful Democratic alternative to the ageing Al Smith); I should also admit that making the "Paternalist" candidate the son of a President amuses me more than it probably should.


*The most logical explanation which occurs to me is that they're all dead in the Great War or the Spanish Flu, but that might be just a tad cruel (even to the Man who Conquered Canada).

CSA

Communism: ????
Syndicalism: ????
Socialism: ????
Social Democracy: Huey Long
Liberalism: Ainsworth Layne
Centrism: ????
Conservatism: Carter Glass
Paternalism: Cordell Hull
Despotism: Clarence Potter
Actionism: Jake Featherston*

I'd like to suggest using Samuel Longstreet as the "Centrist" candidate - we don't learn very much, if at all about the man (so we have a great deal of carte blanche to interpret him as we see fit) and it seems likely that, since he was at least vaguely electable in 1933, he wasn't very closely associated with the Mitchel Administration (which I see as Conservative or Paternalist). His choice of Hugo Black as VP candidate can also be interpreted as hinting at a "middle of the road" approach (since Black was briefly associated with the KKK in our own time, I tend to imagine he flirted with the Freedom Party but turned against them after the Hampton Assassination and, more unusually, STAYED away even after Mitchel screwed the pooch).

I'm also not sure that Clarence Potter fits "Despotism" very well (given that he doesn't seem to have had nearly enough Political connections to rise so high, in the absence of a Featherston Administration to lift him up); I would suggest using Willy Knight in the role, to drive home the point that while he's not as Bad as Jake Featherston he is pretty d--- bad nonetheless.

I think we can safely say that the CSA would only go Communist/Syndicalist/Socialist in the event of an outright Revolution - perhaps the Spanish Confederates & Confederate coloureds sink their differences? - which utterly overthrows the existing political establishment; I'd suggest making the leadership picks African American or Hispanic to reflect this (my guess is that the Syndicalist MIGHT be able to work with the Radical Liberals, assuming they skew a little more Radical, but I'm not au fait enough with that ideology to be sure).

Germany

Communism: Ernst Thalmann
Syndicalism: Rudolf Rocker
Socialism: ????
Social Democracy: Wilhelm II/Otto Wels*
Liberalism: Wilhelm II/Eduard Dingeldey
Centrism: Wilhelm II/Heinrich Bruning
Conservatism: Wilhelm II/Konrad Adenauer
Paternalism: Wilhelm II/Alfred Hugenberg
Despotism: Wilhelm II/Kurt von Schleicher
Actionism: Wilhelm II/Rudolf Hess

Remember that Kaiser Wilhelm dies in 1941 "on schedule" and is replaced by Kaiser Wilhelm III - which might get a little confusing; we might fudge things a little and show Crown Prince Wilhelm taking the throne under the name "Frederick IV" as a way of moving past the lingering controversies likely to a cling on to his father's memory.**

**The Crown Prince's birth name was Friederich Wilhelm Victor August Ernst; on an unrelated note, given his own eldest son contracted a morganatic marriage AND died in the Second World War in our own timeline, it might be interesting to show something similar happening in Timeline 191 (which would make Louis Ferdinand heir to the Imperial throne at the very worst possible time for a man with such a French name to assume such dignities!).

Austria-Hungary/Danubia

Communism: Johann Koplenig
Syndicalism: ????
Socialism: Otto Bauer
Social Democracy: Karl I/Karl Renner
Liberalism: Karl I/????
Centrism: Karl I/????
Conservatism: Karl I/Julius Raab*
Paternalism: Karl I/Wilhelm Miklas
Despotism: Karl I/????
Actionism: Karl I/Englebert Dolfuss

To make the period before the Second Great War breaks out more interesting, you might do worse than to incorporate the possibility of Karl I & IV dying unexpectedly (as he did in our own Timeline, albeit somewhat earlier than 1936***), leaving a fairly young Otto Von Habsburg holding the bag of cats better known as Austria-Hungary and opening up the serious possibility of an Austro-Hungarian Civil War in the mid to late 1930s (acting as a local equivalent to the Spanish Civil War).

Thus the more moderate or liberal leaders would be co-operating with Karl I & IV, while the more despotic might be propping up (or blatantly puppeteering) Otto I & II.

***As did a truly frightening number of Habsburg heirs, including Archduke Franz Ferdinand & Crown Prince Rudolph - it's hard not to suspect some sort of Curse on the male line of the family that only appears to have broken once they stopped being monarchs.

 

[Tiro]

I completely forgot to add - it strikes me that 1936 might be a little late for the Confederate Civil War (since Featherston has had some years to establish himself and a good many "floating" Whigs might well decide that Governor Long is not the horse they want to back against The Snake), but it WOULD make an excellent Point of Divergence for a "War that came Early" timeline, where the unsuccessful attack on Governor Long & the "Police Action" that would likely follow it triggers the fourth War Between the States some years early.

It seems highly unlikely that the Confederates would win that one, but its possible that the US might prefer to prop up a Confederate Puppet State rather than go to the trouble & expense of a long occupation (especially since there's no Population Reduction to hold up to the Southern population as proof positive that they were on the wrong side of History and convince the more dovish Northerners that there's a Moral Imperative to sit on the South for the rest of time, no matter how bloody things get).

I can imagine quite a few butterflies launching themselves in the wake of such a decision ...

 

[Zoidberg12]

Sweden

Communism: Sven Linderot
Syndicalism: Jan Fridegård
Socialism: Nils Flyg
Social Democracy: Gustaf V/Per Albin Hansson*
Liberalism: Gustaf V/Eliel Löfgren
Centrism: Gustaf V/Axel Pehrsson-Bramstorp
Conservatism: Gustaf V/Gösta Bagge
Paternalism: Gustaf V/Martin Ekström
Despotism: Gustaf V/Olof Thörnell
Actionism: Gustaf V/Martin Ekström

Finland

Communism: Otto Wille Kuusinen
Syndicalism: Aimo Aaltonen
Socialism: Yrjö Sirola
Social Democracy: Frederik Kaarle I/Väinö Tanner
Liberalism: Frederik Kaarle I/Risto Ryti
Centrism: Frederik Kaarle I/Kyösti Kallio
Conservatism: Frederik Kaarle I/Pehr Evind Svinhufvud*
Paternalism: Frederik Kaarle I/Vihtori Kosola
Despotism: Frederik Kaarle I/Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim
Actionism: Frederik Kaarle I/Vilho Annala

 

[Faeelin]

That reminds me, what would your take on Tl-191 that you put up a while back look like in *ww2? I know there's a cover of it on deviantart but that has a lot of plausibility issues, especially the commie British Empire.

Remember, the British in that timeline are monsters who have aligned with the racist Confederate elite and then lost a Great War. And the postwar successor state is socialist but not communist.

So far.

 

[Worffan101]

Remember, the British in that timeline are monsters who have aligned with the racist Confederate elite and then lost a Great War. And the postwar successor state is socialist but not communist.

So far.

No, I mean that I find it impossible to believe that a radical socialist revolt against a very British, paternalistic authoritarian capitalist regime would be able to keep India and all those chunks of Africa. I also think it's a bit cliched to have Germany go fascist when their nationalists are basically choking on everything they'd ever wanted or dreamed of. But I love the way you have President Teddy Roosevelt and VP DuBois kick Dixie in the balls and restore the Union (though, I'd think they'd hand those bits of Mexico the Confederacy somehow took back to Mexico), that was a very logical end to *WW1.

 

[HIM Dogson]

Are Maurass and Mosley confirmed to be in power in 1936? Because if not some Kaiserreich style alternate paths would be great to see.

Another note: most maps I've seen have still had China under the Qing. I don't actually think the situation in China is ever dealt with in detail, which is a bit of a shame.

 

[AstroRangerBeans]

Sweden

Communism: Sven Linderot
Syndicalism: Jan Fridegård
Socialism: Nils Flyg
Social Democracy: Gustaf V/Per Albin Hansson*
Liberalism: Gustaf V/Eliel Löfgren
Centrism: Gustaf V/Axel Pehrsson-Bramstorp
Conservatism: Gustaf V/Gösta Bagge
Paternalism: Gustaf V/Martin Ekström
Despotism: Gustaf V/Olof Thörnell
Actionism: Gustaf V/Martin Ekström

Finland

Communism: Otto Wille Kuusinen
Syndicalism: Aimo Aaltonen
Socialism: Yrjö Sirola
Social Democracy: Frederik Kaarle I/Väinö Tanner
Liberalism: Frederik Kaarle I/Risto Ryti
Centrism: Frederik Kaarle I/Kyösti Kallio
Conservatism: Frederik Kaarle I/Pehr Evind Svinhufvud*
Paternalism: Frederik Kaarle I/Vihtori Kosola
Despotism: Frederik Kaarle I/Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim
Actionism: Frederik Kaarle I/Vilho Annala

What about Japan?

 

[Whiteshore]

Russia

Where would our glorious Vozhd Boris Savinkov be here?

 

[Zoidberg12]

Here are my thoughts on China.

Communism: Mao Zedong
Syndicalism: ????
Socialism: ????
Social Democracy: Wang Jingwei
Liberalism: Hu Shih
Centrism: V. S. Wellington Koo
Conservatism: Lin Sen
Paternalism: Wang Jingwei
Despotism: Chiang Kai-shek*
Actionism: Dai Li

 

[Whiteshore]

Socialism: ????

Carsun Chang?

 

[bguy]

I completely forgot to add - it strikes me that 1936 might be a little late for the Confederate Civil War (since Featherston has had some years to establish himself and a good many "floating" Whigs might well decide that Governor Long is not the horse they want to back against The Snake), but it WOULD make an excellent Point of Divergence for a "War that came Early" timeline, where the unsuccessful attack on Governor Long & the "Police Action" that would likely follow it triggers the fourth War Between the States some years early.

1936 was the year in the TL-191 canon where there was an attempt on Featherston's life at the Olympics and where Featherston purged General Stuart. Have either the assassination attempt on Featherston succeed or have Stuart decide to launch a military coup in response to Featherston trying to get rid of him, and you could see a Confederate civil war break out that year.

It seems highly unlikely that the Confederates would win that one, but its possible that the US might prefer to prop up a Confederate Puppet State rather than go to the trouble & expense of a long occupation (especially since there's no Population Reduction to hold up to the Southern population as proof positive that they were on the wrong side of History and convince the more dovish Northerners that there's a Moral Imperative to sit on the South for the rest of time, no matter how bloody things get).

Agreed. The US at that point was having enough trouble just trying to hold down Kentucky, Sequoyah, and Houston, so I can't see them wanting to take on the added burden of the rest of the CSA.

 

[Pelranius]

Poor old Charles W. LaFollette gets no respect, as usual!

Now I was inches away from suggesting we use Hosea Blackford for "Paternalism" (given he's basically a Team Dad, at least as I see him) but given he's quite, quite dead by this point in the Timeline that would be just a TOUCH out of kilter; I'm also not sure it would suit the Socialist Party ethos as well as it would the 191 Dems.

However, since Paternalism is a fairly "Patrician" attitude, why not use one of Theodore Roosevelt's sons? (You could possibly make a reasonable case for TR being as much a Paternalist as anything and the fact that Mr Roosevelt is effectively THE Greatest Hero President in Modern American History makes it somewhat curious that we never really hear very much about his heirs throughout the remainder of the SOUTHERN VICTORY novels*); I'm tempted to suggest Quentin Roosevelt - to drive home that this is an Alternate History and also because after the late 1930s he'd be roughly the right age to act as a slightly older Thomas E. Dewey.

QR was born in November 1897, so in 1936 he'd be 38 or 39 (though one suspects he'd be better advised to run in 1940; he'd be a convincingly youthful Democratic alternative to the ageing Al Smith); I should also admit that making the "Paternalist" candidate the son of a President amuses me more than it probably should.


*The most logical explanation which occurs to me is that they're all dead in the Great War or the Spanish Flu, but that might be just a tad cruel (even to the Man who Conquered Canada).





I'd like to suggest using Samuel Longstreet as the "Centrist" candidate - we don't learn very much, if at all about the man (so we have a great deal of carte blanche to interpret him as we see fit) and it seems likely that, since he was at least vaguely electable in 1933, he wasn't very closely associated with the Mitchel Administration (which I see as Conservative or Paternalist). His choice of Hugo Black as VP candidate can also be interpreted as hinting at a "middle of the road" approach (since Black was briefly associated with the KKK in our own time, I tend to imagine he flirted with the Freedom Party but turned against them after the Hampton Assassination and, more unusually, STAYED away even after Mitchel screwed the pooch).

I'm also not sure that Clarence Potter fits "Despotism" very well (given that he doesn't seem to have had nearly enough Political connections to rise so high, in the absence of a Featherston Administration to lift him up); I would suggest using Willy Knight in the role, to drive home the point that while he's not as Bad as Jake Featherston he is pretty d--- bad nonetheless.

I think we can safely say that the CSA would only go Communist/Syndicalist/Socialist in the event of an outright Revolution - perhaps the Spanish Confederates & Confederate coloureds sink their differences? - which utterly overthrows the existing political establishment; I'd suggest making the leadership picks African American or Hispanic to reflect this (my guess is that the Syndicalist MIGHT be able to work with the Radical Liberals, assuming they skew a little more Radical, but I'm not au fait enough with that ideology to be sure).





Remember that Kaiser Wilhelm dies in 1941 "on schedule" and is replaced by Kaiser Wilhelm III - which might get a little confusing; we might fudge things a little and show Crown Prince Wilhelm taking the throne under the name "Frederick IV" as a way of moving past the lingering controversies likely to a cling on to his father's memory.**

**The Crown Prince's birth name was Friederich Wilhelm Victor August Ernst; on an unrelated note, given his own eldest son contracted a morganatic marriage AND died in the Second World War in our own timeline, it might be interesting to show something similar happening in Timeline 191 (which would make Louis Ferdinand heir to the Imperial throne at the very worst possible time for a man with such a French name to assume such dignities!).





To make the period before the Second Great War breaks out more interesting, you might do worse than to incorporate the possibility of Karl I & IV dying unexpectedly (as he did in our own Timeline, albeit somewhat earlier than 1936***), leaving a fairly young Otto Von Habsburg holding the bag of cats better known as Austria-Hungary and opening up the serious possibility of an Austro-Hungarian Civil War in the mid to late 1930s (acting as a local equivalent to the Spanish Civil War).

Thus the more moderate or liberal leaders would be co-operating with Karl I & IV, while the more despotic might be propping up (or blatantly puppeteering) Otto I & II.

***As did a truly frightening number of Habsburg heirs, including Archduke Franz Ferdinand & Crown Prince Rudolph - it's hard not to suspect some sort of Curse on the male line of the family that only appears to have broken once they stopped being monarchs.

Hmm, could Konrad Heinlein by the KuK actionist leader?