The Great Turk returns - Alternate resurging Ottomans (1747-1947)

[haider najib]

Now I am curious. I wonder where @Koprulu Mustafa Pasha and @haider najib are from?

Just remembered. Well all my guess was wrong i thought pasha was turkish, but he's dutch. Originally bosnian turk, then turkish turk and dutch im assuming turkish dutch.

Envar i assumed was full on turkish. Completely wrong A he's of syrian descent. B on a conpletely different continent. Im assuming your Argentinean muslim?

Nivak even though he told hes latin American im just more confused. Hes spanish proper descent, living in latin America and is muslim, who had a Pied-Noir gf. This sounds like a game of guess who but gone wrong somewhere.

So far this TL threas has attracted a list of 'find the most obscure muslims on the planet' its like pokemon gotta catch em all.

 

[haider najib]

I know I wasnt asked but I think Morroco could send money or help with suplies, if England lets them and Spain its too busy trying to gain back their core territory (which they are). The problem is I not shure if Morroco is gonna benefit that much from it, maybe they could blackmail the Spaniards about helping the independentist patriots in America to gain concessions in Africa and the Mediterranean. Or maybe the could try to snach Canarias from them.

Forgot your from the americas you can answer (anyone can answer it) Bolivar asks for help in exchange the latin americans won't end their war till morroco gets the canary islands, or get some really good trade deals with latin america.

 

[EnvarKadri]

Also, I noticed something from really early in the tml that I think is not so plausible: iirc there was a post regarding avoiding the convertion to shiism of most of irak by (if I remember correctly) starting the forced sedetarization of sunni nomads earlier and keeping better control of the province, sending sunni imams, etc., and it included a map if irak showing most of irak except the area around Karbala-Najaf-Kufa as majority sunni thanks to that policy. I read here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam_in_Iraq , that south irak (marshlands and basra) had a strong shia presence for quite a long time before the ottomans and even in the ottoman period before the resettlement of arabs the area experience big convertions of tribes. Also the area were most resettle people were put was quite near najaf and karbala so really fat away for the authorities of Istanbul and just next door for the clergy and shias from najaf and karbala. Is difficult to imagine the state being able in the 18th century to project control to such a far away area against an element right there. Also the demographics of southern irak were already shia so I dont see how to change that. So I could se if more resources were dedicated in the area of central Irak around Baghdad, especially later in the 19th and 20th centuries you could get a less shia irak maybe 50/50 split or maybe revert the relation with a 60% sunni population.

 

[Nivek]

@Nivek (anyone cans answer if you want) can probs answer this as a latin american you want spanish rule to go as fast as possible right. So Simon Bolivar is coming closer and closer. Part of his early plans was to ger foreign support such as Britain. What about Morroco instead? They hold a Caribbean island, they are doing really well right now and causing a shitstorm for spain they would love to do it. Can morroco make an meaningful change for latin america.

If Morrocco give help that would be amazing,maybe an amazing history for our independance, any help is welcomed

Hes spanish proper descent

Long descendant(my family have been here...at least since independance maybe even earlier) but family emigrated back and for spain...sadly i'm not candidate to spanish/european citizenship(i might have...nah that relationship ended because politics)

 

[EnvarKadri]

Just remembered. Well all my guess was wrong i thought pasha was turkish, but he's dutch. Originally bosnian turk, then turkish turk and dutch im assuming turkish dutch.

Envar i assumed was full on turkish. Completely wrong A he's of syrian descent. B on a conpletely different continent. Im assuming your Argentinean muslim?

Nivak even though he told hes latin American im just more confused. Hes spanish proper descent, living in latin America and is muslim, who had a Pied-Noir gf. This sounds like a game of guess who but gone wrong somewhere.

So far this TL threas has attracted a list of 'find the most obscure muslims on the planet' its like pokemon gotta catch em all.

My great grandpa was a syrian... Druze. He merried here a mestizo catholic woman. Also most of my ancestry is italian and uruguayan and a german grandma. So I am from everywhere. Looking at my family tree is like looking at an octopus.
About the muslim part, I have been really interested in shia islam for years now. But I am not shure about if I actually believe in God sooo small problem.

 

[Nivek]

I actually believe in God sooo small problem.

That is a massive understament...

 

[haider najib]

Druze

Ah yes the 'where the fuck did these people pop up from?' Group.

That is a massive understament...

I thought you where muslim?

Long descendant(my family have been here...at least since independance maybe even earlier) but family emigrated back and for spain...sadly i'm not candidate to spanish/european citizenship(i might have...nah that relationship ended because politics)

Spanish civil war? Also if that's the case how the hell did you become muslim to begin with?

 

[EnvarKadri]

I thought you where muslim?

Thinking about it for a long time. Mmmh, a fellow traveller?

 

[Nivek]

I thought you where muslim?

I'm, is that how can think to become a muslim(a shia more specifically) without beliving in God at all.

Spanish civil war? Also if that's the case how the hell did you become muslim to begin with?

Older...Colonial era, this sketching the details, more if my family trully fight on the independance or was a myth to become popular(one was a bullfighter...)...I Converted to Islam with several friend and family members too

 

[EnvarKadri]

I'm, is that how can think to become a muslim(a shia more specifically) without beliving in God at all.


Older...Colonial era, this sketching the details, more if my family trully fight on the independance or was a myth to become popular(one was a bullfighter...)...I Converted to Islam with several friend and family members too

I am not certain on disbelief either. Is not like anybody could be sure about this thing, is not something demostrable so I may always live with doubt. But that may be ok.

 

[haider najib]

Mmmh, a fellow traveller?

For what?

I'm, is that how can think to become a muslim(a shia more specifically) without beliving in God at all.

Im super confused you guys have broken my thinking i thought u were sunni, godammit got third wrong. Can you explain in layman terms i don't get it. The sentence makes no sense. Btw im not judging im just really confused, this sounds either like some next level of thinking, or if we were high as fuck.

 

[EnvarKadri]

I'm, is that how can think to become a muslim(a shia more specifically) without beliving in God at all.


Older...Colonial era, this sketching the details, more if my family trully fight on the independance or was a myth to become popular(one was a bullfighter...)...I Converted to Islam with several friend and family members too

Colonial era? Thats cool. Mmh from which social sector?

 

[Nivek]

Im super confused you guys have broken my thinking i thought u were sunni, godammit got third wrong. Can you explain in layman terms i don't get it. The sentence makes no sense. Btw im not judging im just really confused, this sounds either some next level shit, or if we were high as fuck.

I'm a sunni @EnvarKadri wanted to become a shia but he doubt about God and his existance, i say how he can want to become a muslim with such massive doubt, the say that doubt is something inside him, like the dealbreaker or why he don't want to convert with such doubt

 

[EnvarKadri]

For what?


Im super confused you guys have broken my thinking i thought u were sunni, godammit got third wrong. Can you explain in layman terms i don't get it. The sentence makes no sense. Btw im not judging im just really confused, this sounds either some next level shit, or if we were high as fuck.

He was asking me about me thinking on converting to shia islam without being shure on believing in God. Which, to be fair, is something that would surprise most people.

 

[EnvarKadri]

For what?


Im super confused you guys have broken my thinking i thought u were sunni, godammit got third wrong. Can you explain in layman terms i don't get it. The sentence makes no sense. Btw im not judging im just really confused, this sounds either like some next level of thinking, or if we were high as fuck.

Fellow traveller of islam in general but unshure on the idea of God.

 

[Nivek]

Fellow traveller of islam in general but unshure on the idea of God.

I'm a very devoted one, that is why was suprised your declaration....very suprised...is up to you to convert, if you want and feel the pure devotion

 

[haider najib]

I'm a sunni @EnvarKadri wanted to become a shia but he doubt about God and his existance, i say how he can want to become a muslim with such massive doubt, the say that doubt is something inside him, like the dealbreaker or why he don't want to convert with such doubt

Oh i thought you were saying you were muslim but didn't believe in god, that to me is really confusing. So are sunni muslim okay. So what your saying envar has thought about it converting to shitte faith, but hasn't done it due to doubt of the existence of god?

He was asking me about me thinking on converting to shia islam without being shure on believing in God. Which, to be fair, is something that would surprise most people.

Fellow traveller of islam in general but unshure on the idea of God.

What you do is you hedge your bets on your death bed you convert giving you two options. A, Conversation makes you a new muslim getting you into hevan also by following the path you shown sincerity. B, there is no god, and your dead meaning there was no reason to convert but that doesn't matter cause your dead and you cant think.

 

[EnvarKadri]

Oh i thought you were saying you were muslim but didn't believe in god, that to me is really confusing. So are sunni muslim okay. So what your saying envar has thought about it converting to shitte faith, but hasn't done it due to doubt of the existence of god?



What you do is you hedge your bets on your death bed you convert giving you two options. A, Conversation makes you a new muslim getting you into hevan also by following the path you shown sincerity. B, there is no god, and your dead meaning there was no reason to convert but that doesn't matter cause your dead and you cant think.

I dont think God, if it's the source of truth and justice, we generally think it is, would condemn overall righteous people that dont believe, after all its okay to be wrong as long that it doesnt produce injustice. I cant avoid feeling that the universe is uncaring about our struggles. Is moral and justice objective truths that we have to uncover whatever thought reason and divine revelation or relative manmade andwer to manmade questions? Are ideas inmanent to existance or product of humanity?

 

[haider najib]

I dont think God, if it's the source of truth and justice, we generally think it is, would condemn overall righteous people that dont believe, after all its okay to be wrong as long that it doesnt produce injustice. I cant avoid feeling that the universe is uncaring about our struggles. Is moral and justice objective truths that we have to uncover whatever thought reason and divine revelation or relative manmade andwer to manmade questions? Are ideas inmanent to existance or product of humanity?

Its to 2am here for me ill answers this later (my morning), i aint doing some cloud atlas philosophy now.

 

[EnvarKadri]

Its to 2am here for me ill answers this later (my morning), i aint doing some cloud atlas philosophy now.

Haha, understandable. I dont know why I am spilling here my existencialist angst.
Lets just say that even if I am uncertain on methaphysics I am politically close to Ali Shariati Red Shiism.