What's on Palmyra and Johnston? What's the strategic value of these places in relation to Hawaii's security after the islands are liberated? Would the Japanese still hold on to them after losing Hawaii?
Days of Infamy: Invasion, Occupation, and Liberation of Hawaii (1941-1943)
- Thread starter Alterwright
- Start date
What's on Palmyra and Johnston? What's the strategic value of these places in relation to Hawaii's security after the islands are liberated? Would the Japanese still hold on to them after losing Hawaii?
Both had airfields and facilities for seaplanes. They could be useful as outposts for the Japanese when the Central Pacific Offensive gets going. Both can also support H8K Emily recon or raids against Hawaii with submarine support. Nimitz will want to take them, while the Japanese would want to keep them.
Uh-huh, do you imagine the islands to be taken with much force? Sounds like the Japanese would heavily contest them? Where exactly are these islands? Do you have a map?
While Hawaii's occupied, there may not be that much of a garrison: air base personnel and maybe some SNLF to man the AA and coastal guns. Post-liberation, they would try to reinforce the islands, and stopping that will be a job for Submarines Pacific now that they can base at Pearl again.
Johnston Atoll is at: 16-44-13 N, 169-31-26 W. Southwest of Hawaii
Palmyra Atoll is at : 05-52 N, 162-05 W. South of Hawaii.
Johnston Atoll is at: 16-44-13 N, 169-31-26 W. Southwest of Hawaii
Palmyra Atoll is at : 05-52 N, 162-05 W. South of Hawaii.
Royal Hawaiian Army --- Uniform and Equipment: 1941-1943
https://turtledove.fandom.com/wiki/Royal_Hawaiian_Army <--- Wiki article
King Stanley Owana Laanui was able to raise a small army with he was in power. Although ceremonial at first, mostly used to garrison Iolani Palace, during the US Invasion of Hawaii in 1943 the army saw action against US soldiers while fighting along side Japanese troops. Their performance was mixed, with units either surrendering without a fight or battling US soldiers in tenacious combat to the death.
At roughly battalion strength, the Royal Hawaiian Army may have been somewhere between 300+ to 800+ men, divided into multiple companies. They were said to be armed with captured Springfield 1903 rifles, but were not issued ammunition since they were, for the most part, used for ceremonial duties and due to Japanese mistrust. It was not until the US invasion that Royal Hawaiian Army was issued ammo in the coming fight.
I haven't read that far yet, but for now I'd be willing to take a guess at the equipment and uniform of the Royal Hawaiian Army. This will exclude a possible ceremonial uniform and focus more on a practical combat uniform.
^^^ --- I think the uniform might be the old summer service uniform used before the occupation. Due to the logistical restraints on the Japanese, I imagine the Royal Hawaiian Army would be issued with surplus/captured US equipment and uniforms. This would include using the Brodie helmets as well. All US markings would have to be removed and perhaps simple insignia or armbands might be used to identify Royal Hawaiian units.
^^^ --- As such they would most likely be kitted out with the M1903 Springfield and ammo belt, removing any US markings.
^^^ --- I do think, however, that the Japanese Army might issue the Royal Hawaiian Army with Japanese equipment as well. This would help if only to identify the Hawaiians as being on their side and not mistaking them for US soldiers. They could probably issue them with Japanese caps, helmets, and ammo belts.
^^^ --- Also likely is the Japanese Type 99 Arisaka being issued to the Royal Hawaiian Army, if in sufficient quantities.
As such, I think we would be looking at a Hawaiian Army that is kitted out in pre-invasion fatigues with a mix of Japanese and US weapons. I believe that with the logistical constraints on the islands by 1943 that the Hawaiian Army would be kitted out in a very simple manner, with identifying armbands used to denote them, if at all.
https://turtledove.fandom.com/wiki/Royal_Hawaiian_Army <--- Wiki article
King Stanley Owana Laanui was able to raise a small army with he was in power. Although ceremonial at first, mostly used to garrison Iolani Palace, during the US Invasion of Hawaii in 1943 the army saw action against US soldiers while fighting along side Japanese troops. Their performance was mixed, with units either surrendering without a fight or battling US soldiers in tenacious combat to the death.
At roughly battalion strength, the Royal Hawaiian Army may have been somewhere between 300+ to 800+ men, divided into multiple companies. They were said to be armed with captured Springfield 1903 rifles, but were not issued ammunition since they were, for the most part, used for ceremonial duties and due to Japanese mistrust. It was not until the US invasion that Royal Hawaiian Army was issued ammo in the coming fight.
I haven't read that far yet, but for now I'd be willing to take a guess at the equipment and uniform of the Royal Hawaiian Army. This will exclude a possible ceremonial uniform and focus more on a practical combat uniform.
^^^ --- I think the uniform might be the old summer service uniform used before the occupation. Due to the logistical restraints on the Japanese, I imagine the Royal Hawaiian Army would be issued with surplus/captured US equipment and uniforms. This would include using the Brodie helmets as well. All US markings would have to be removed and perhaps simple insignia or armbands might be used to identify Royal Hawaiian units.
^^^ --- As such they would most likely be kitted out with the M1903 Springfield and ammo belt, removing any US markings.
^^^ --- I do think, however, that the Japanese Army might issue the Royal Hawaiian Army with Japanese equipment as well. This would help if only to identify the Hawaiians as being on their side and not mistaking them for US soldiers. They could probably issue them with Japanese caps, helmets, and ammo belts.
^^^ --- Also likely is the Japanese Type 99 Arisaka being issued to the Royal Hawaiian Army, if in sufficient quantities.
As such, I think we would be looking at a Hawaiian Army that is kitted out in pre-invasion fatigues with a mix of Japanese and US weapons. I believe that with the logistical constraints on the islands by 1943 that the Hawaiian Army would be kitted out in a very simple manner, with identifying armbands used to denote them, if at all.
I see now. So we may be looking at the beginnings of the island hopping campaign here, with battles over small islands akin to Eniwetok or Tarawa, depending on how tenacious of a defense the Japanese put up in these locations. I'm wondering what the terrain would be like there...
Deleted member 2186
Nice list, we know from the second book that the carriers USS Bunker Hill, USS Essex, USS Wasp, USS Hornet and the USS Ranger took part in the Second Battle of the North Pacific as it is called, thus seeing your list makes a lot of sense.
Their is one thing missing from the list. Their were also several escort carriers that accompanied the fleet. That was also mentioned in the second book.
I only gave the CVs and CVLs, as figuring out which CVEs would be there would be an issue, with the ASW Hunter-Killer groups forming up for the Battle of the Atlantic and closing the Air Gap which the U-Boats exploited.
They did mention one escort carrier in the second book. It was the one that was hit by the bomb carried by Lt. Saburo Shindo on his suicide mission when he struck the Bunker Hill. She was the Copahee. Just out of curiosity, They said in the book that one light carrier was lost, while a fleet carrier and an escort carrier were both damaged. Any idea which ones they were?
It could be that Princeton was the CVL that was sunk-she was sunk OTL at Leyte Gulf. Not sure as to the damaged big carrier or the CVE.
Deleted member 2186
Reading the US Liberation of Hawaii article on the Turrtledove wiki it does mention the escort carrier USS Copahee, also it is mention in the article about the United States Navy that the Task force that liberated the islands in 1943 was made up of seven carriers (four Essex class CVs, and three Independence class CVLs) and in addition, there were a number of escort carriers, as well. Escorts for this task force included battleships, cruisers, and destroyers, their numbers in the dozens.
Have a look at p. 246 of End of the Beginning: Bunker Hill, Essex, and three more new fleet carriers are in the task force, along with Hornet and Ranger (no mention of Wasp, but in all likelihood, she was there). Five CVLs and nearly a dozen CVEs (some were probably handling the ASW mission, while others had embarked Marine and Army fighter squadrons to fly ashore once airfields on Oahu were secured) were also present.
I believe since King Stanley is part of the House of Kalakaua, I think it would mean he's permitted to the fly the royal ensign shown below here. For me, I believe this would be first candidate for a Hawaiian puppet state flag, with the ensign being adopted as the national flag. Not sure.
Deleted member 2186
Both that flag and the flag used by the First Kingdom of Hawaii will be forever tainted as the Third Reich Flag.
Indeed, that's right. An unfortunate consequence of this alternate timeline in which the Hawaiian Royal Family (at least some of them, not most of them) are branded as collaborators. The Royal Ensign here would definitely be seen in a bad light after the war is over, a symbol of Hawaii's painful occupation and collaboration days.
What was the flag used by the First Kingdom of Hawaii that you're referring to? Do you mean the Kanaka Maoli flag or the current Hawaiian state flag? Do you have a picture?
Deleted member 2186
The same flag as the Territory of Hawaii and the First Kingdom which i call this way to separate it from the Japanese puppet Kingdom formed Second Kingdom of Hawaii.
Deleted member 2186
You might be true, a lot of Americans will believe that Hawaii is theirs due the blood spilled for it.
Not just that, but given that Japan committed war crimes through their treatment of POWs under King Stanleys nose, the Royal Hawaaiin army will be forever branded as worst traitors than Benedict Arnold.