Q-Bam Historical Map Thread

[Crazy Boris]

What's going on in the interior of Oman?

In 1913, the Imamate of Oman broke off from the Sultanate of Muscat and Oman, and wasn't brought back under the Sultanate's control until 1959.

Mongolia and USSR added. Unfortunatley I wasn't able to do much more than this since Russia took forever to do.

 

[felixs]

View attachment 425151
I'm almost done with the Americas and Africa.
Anyone got a (clear) map of the divisions of Iran, Southern Rhod., Chile, Nicaragua, Turkey, UK, or the Soviet Union around 1942?

French North Africa seems to have different border between Algeria and Morocco in 1938, they had a special military zone between Algeria and Morocco, thats probably accurate for 1942 too. Also Tunisia has slimmer tail.

Edit: A map i have show Tunisia says current southern border since 1929 but the funny looking tail is the administrative boundary from before and during French period

 

[felixs]

And rest of French Colonial Africa in 1938.
French Sudan(Mali) - Mauritania border took it's current shape in 1944, before that Mali was much bigger.
Upper Volta/Burkina Faso colony was dismantled on 5 September 1932, being split between the French colonies of Ivory Coast, French Sudan and Niger. Ivory Coast received the largest share, which contained most of the population as well as the cities of Ouagadougou and Bobo-Dioulasso. On 4 September 1947 the colony of Upper Volta was revived with its previous boundaries.

 

[Thon Taddeo]

In 1913, the Imamate of Oman broke off from the Sultanate of Muscat and Oman, and wasn't brought back under the Sultanate's control until 1959.

Mongolia and USSR added. Unfortunatley I wasn't able to do much more than this since Russia took forever to do.

Some parts of the USSR need to be fixed.

http://www.iriston.com/books/cuciev_-_etno_atlas/maps/map28.jpg

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Дальне-Восточный_край_1938.png#mw-jump-to-license

I think some other parts of the USSR and Mongolia need to be fixed as well. I'll look for maps later.

 

[felixs]

With Franco-Italian Agreement of 1935, France was trying to appease Italy and ceded Aouzou Strip between Northern Chad and Libya to Italy, also a small territory in French Somaliland/Djibouti south of Eritrean Rahayta was transfered to Italian Eritrea so northern coast of French Somalia/Djibouti was reduced south of the Bab-el-Mandeb Strait.
France was at the time also claiming a small portion of Yemen opposite Djibouti too, they never properly occupied it but you can also see it on the 1935 map

Here two maps showing the different northern borders of Djibouti, current borders and 1935 borders.

 

[damein fisher]

@felixs What is the source for all those colonial maps?

 

[Thon Taddeo]

@felixs What is the source for all those colonial maps?

https://www.alamy.com/search.html?p...splcurate=0&saveQry=&editorial=1&t=0&edoptin=

 

[felixs]

@felixs What is the source for all those colonial maps?

Site is alamy.com, their free previews of the maps they are selling, but the original source is the french colonial atlas from 1930's. Atlas Colonial Français, 1938.

 

[Crazy Boris]

Asia, Oceania, Canada, USA, and Caribbean done.

 

[Sharklord1]

And rest of French Colonial Africa in 1938.
French Sudan(Mali) - Mauritania border took it's current shape in 1944, before that Mali was much bigger.
Upper Volta/Burkina Faso colony was dismantled on 5 September 1932, being split between the French colonies of Ivory Coast, French Sudan and Niger. Ivory Coast received the largest share, which contained most of the population as well as the cities of Ouagadougou and Bobo-Dioulasso. On 4 September 1947 the colony of Upper Volta was revived with its previous boundaries.

These maps are awesome, and while I'm highly unsure that the French-Algeria Morocco border was that way, please send more of them if you come across any

 

[Linbot]

Asia, Oceania, Canada, USA, and Caribbean done.

What happened to Tibet?

 

[Wendell]

What happened to Tibet?

It's in the midst of Communist conquest.

 

[Linbot]

It's in the midst of Communist conquest.

Why would the PRC invade there, though? That's the least densely populated part of Tibet. There's nothing there that weakens Tibet if it is occupied, it's not on the route to something actually important, and the infrastructure, especially in 1950, is virtually non-existent. So the PRC would not waste effort occupying it. This is a common theme in wars; remote areas are not the scene of battles because A) the opposing armies cannot deploy there effectively, and B) there's nothing there that's important or on the route to something that is. So based on logic the PRC would not occupy that area.

 

[Chris S]

What happened to Tibet?

It's in the midst of Communist conquest.

Why would the PRC invade there, though? That's the least densely populated part of Tibet. There's nothing there that weakens Tibet if it is occupied, it's not on the route to something actually important, and the infrastructure, especially in 1950, is virtually non-existent. So the PRC would not waste effort occupying it. This is a common theme in wars; remote areas are not the scene of battles because A) the opposing armies cannot deploy there effectively, and B) there's nothing there that's important or on the route to something that is. So based on logic the PRC would not occupy that area.

China's invasion of Tibet happened in the east of the country, not the west. And it didn't take Lhasa. It resulted in a victory in Chamdo and then Tibet agreeing to terms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chamdo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of_Tibet_into_the_People's_Republic_of_China

EDIT: But CrazyBoris seems to have been working with Omniatlas as a source: https://omniatlas.com/maps/east-asia/19500914/

Doing a bit of checking that region is the Ngari region of Tibet. Perhaps it did come under the control of the PRC in 1950 along with Sinkiang. Anyone can confirm?

 

[felixs]

These maps are awesome, and while I'm highly unsure that the French-Algeria Morocco border was that way, please send more of them if you come across any

I know it's not what we are accustomed to see but since they are from the official french colonial atlas, i think french should know the best about their territories, but im not sure how long that arrangement lasted.
Our sources are almost always anglocentric so there can be mistakes, like the famous empty blop in eastern libya that in almost every pre-world war I map of colonial Africa has. It was never empty, it was controlled by the senussi emirate, under ottoman protection and ottomans had military outposts in northern chad until their war with italy over libya in 1912, but since french and britain didn't want to acknowledge ottoman claims there they just ignored it, and everbody else just copied those maps.

Edit: I did some quick research, French wikipedia page of Territoire d'Aïn-Sefra of western Algeria mentions its borders changed in 1920, 1938 and 1947 and gives links to offical french goverment decrees about them in French Gallica, as far as i can understand with my non existent french, 1938 decree mentions pacifying southern morrocco and establishing a new military territory for that purpose, so we can assume those borders were legit between 1938-1947.I will do some more research later too but we need a french speaker i think

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65510144/f16.item.zoom

 

[Sharklord1]

I know it's not what we are accustomed to see but since they are from the official french colonial atlas, i think french should know the best about their territories, but im not sure how long that arrangement lasted.
Our sources are almost always anglocentric so there can be mistakes, like the famous empty blop in eastern libya that in almost every pre-world war I map of colonial Africa has. It was never empty, it was controlled by the senussi emirate, under ottoman protection and ottomans had military outposts in northern chad until their war with italy over libya in 1912, but since french and britain didn't want to acknowledge ottoman claims there they just ignored it, and everbody else just copied those maps.

Edit: I did some quick research, French wikipedia page of Territoire d'Aïn-Sefra of western Algeria mentions its borders changed in 1920, 1938 and 1947 and gives links to offical french goverment decrees about them in French Gallica, as far as i can understand with my non existent french, 1938 decree mentions pacifying southern morrocco and establishing a new military territory for that purpose, so we can assume those borders were legit between 1938-1947.I will do some more research later too but we need a french speaker i think

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65510144/f16.item.zoom

I know the pacification that occurred specifically with the Western border of Algeria. Though the issue I found between the map and the decree is that all the territories it has said was annexed are currently part of Algeria. I didn't see any locations that referenced a Moroccan/Other-Arabic territory.

 

[felixs]

I know the pacification that occurred specifically with the Western border of Algeria. Though the issue I found between the map and the decree is that all the territories it has said was annexed are currently part of Algeria. I didn't see any locations that referenced a Moroccan/Other-Arabic territory.

Map is mentioning the territory as "Algero-Marocain" so i guess it didn't belong to Algeria or Morroco specifically, red border outlines are also showing it's seperate from both South Algerian territories and Morroco too.

 

[Sharklord1]

Map is mentioning the territory as "Algero-Marocain" so i guess it didn't belong to Algeria or Morroco specifically, red border outlines are also showing it's seperate from both South Algerian territories and Morroco too

Weird. If it didn't belong to Algeria or Morocco specifically, then it must be an undefined border with a military zone, because it was an exception of French control until 1934 or 1938.

 

[felixs]

Unfortunately im not knowledgable enough on the subject but as far as i know southern borders of morrocco was an ill defined subject, because of constant French intervention.
During the colonial period France was always aiming for a smaller Morocco and bigger Algeria as far as i know because Morocco was a protectorate not colonial territory and southern morrocan borders were very ill defined. Trinquet Line of 1938 on the second map was also only a proposal, never fully accepted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_War

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontière_entre_l'Algérie_et_le_Maroc

First map shows Morrocan borders at the end of 19th century. Before French conquest of Sahara

 

[felixs]

I also found this about Morocco 1937
It's mentioning the territory in a small box as Confins A-M. It look like incorporating some Mauretanian territory too.

http://simaroca.blogspot.com/2016/05/carte-administrative-maroc-1937.html