John, Duke of Albany Remarries?

[Kellan Sullivan]

Okay, so John, Duke of Albany, was the heir presumptive to the throne of Scotland between the death of James IV's younger son, the duke of Ross, and Albany's own death. However, Albany never had legitimate children of his own. His wife died in 1524, but in the remaining 12 years of his life, Albany never remarried.

Who would be a good wife for him to remarry to? And how would this affect the future of Scotland (assume James V still runs as OTL leaving a daughter)? Male issue of Albany would be pretty clear cut successors in the event of James V dying without male issue (unless James changes the succession law - don't know how likely that is though).

 

[VVD0D95]

Perhaps Janet Hamilton the sister
Of the earl arran. And was the succession entail as designed by Robert ii still in place at the time?

 

[The_Last_Plantagenet]

During the latter part of his life, he spent a considerable amount of time in France and northern Italy, fighting for the French king, so a Scot match is perhaps less likely.
Perhaps this lass;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_de_Navarre
She was the sister of Francis I so would be a good way to tighten the Franco-Scots alliance.

 

[isabella]

If Albany was still alive or had a son, he would be King at the death of James V.
Plus if Albany became King and had only a daughter, that girl will be Queen after him. If Albany died before James with a daughter that daughter would be Mary’s heiress

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I'm not sure. Albany seems to have had reasonably high ambitions, since at one point he presented himself as a suitor for Kristina of Denmark (not sure if this was before or after she was duchess of Milan). With another Habsburg girl as a wife for James V.

During the latter part of his life, he spent a considerable amount of time in France and northern Italy, fighting for the French king, so a Scot match is perhaps less likely.
Perhaps this lass;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_de_Navarre
She was the sister of Francis I so would be a good way to tighten the Franco-Scots alliance.

She might. But it's hardly worth it, since Albany was predominantly abroad, so I'm not sure that François will give him his sister. And besides, if Albany wants heirs, he's going to politely decline Marguerite's hand (no way of knowing that she's still going to be able to pop out kids into her 40s). The duc de Vendôme's daughters, OTOH, are all too young for a match in the 1520s, maybe for a brief marriage in the 1530s. The French might resort to an Italian proxy. If Albany is looking for a match right now - and to a French heiress - why not Louise Borgia, Duchesse de Valentinois, Comtess de Diois, Dame de la Mothe-Feuilly et de Vaires et Neves, Dowager Princess de la Trémoïlle. Her husband died at Pavia in 1525 (aged 65), no reason he can't die a little earlier, no? She's only 25 versus Marguerite's 33. Suzanne de Bourbon-Montpensier (b.1508) is also available.

Perhaps Janet Hamilton the sister
Of the earl arran. And was the succession entail as designed by Robert ii still in place at the time?

Was she born from the Earl of Arran's first or second marriage? Because if she's from the second, then she'd likely have the same charges of born of bigamy levelled against her that her brother did when claiming the succession

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I've just been wondering. OTL there were rumours that after Albany had procured an annulment for Margaret Tudor (from Douglas), he would wed her himself. Might Marge be considered for a bride? She's older than Marguerite d'Angoulême but it WAS rumored at the time, but IDK if it could work

 

[isabella]

I've just been wondering. OTL there were rumours that after Albany had procured an annulment for Margaret Tudor (from Douglas), he would wed her himself. Might Marge be considered for a bride? She's older than Marguerite d'Angoulême but it WAS rumored at the time, but IDK if it could work

Well Margaret Tudor was possible if Albany is more interested in cementing a position of power in Scotland for himself than in having heirs...

I'm not sure. Albany seems to have had reasonably high ambitions, since at one point he presented himself as a suitor for Kristina of Denmark (not sure if this was before or after she was duchess of Milan). With another Habsburg girl as a wife for James V.



She might. But it's hardly worth it, since Albany was predominantly abroad, so I'm not sure that François will give him his sister. And besides, if Albany wants heirs, he's going to politely decline Marguerite's hand (no way of knowing that she's still going to be able to pop out kids into her 40s). The duc de Vendôme's daughters, OTOH, are all too young for a match in the 1520s, maybe for a brief marriage in the 1530s. The French might resort to an Italian proxy. If Albany is looking for a match right now - and to a French heiress - why not Louise Borgia, Duchesse de Valentinois, Comtess de Diois, Dame de la Mothe-Feuilly et de Vaires et Neves, Dowager Princess de la Trémoïlle. Her husband died at Pavia in 1525 (aged 65), no reason he can't die a little earlier, no? She's only 25 versus Marguerite's 33. Suzanne de Bourbon-Montpensier (b.1508) is also available.



Was she born from the Earl of Arran's first or second marriage? Because if she's from the second, then she'd likely have the same charges of born of bigamy levelled against her that her brother did when claiming the succession

Well being born from either wedding is almost indifferent as her husband would have a stronger claim to the Scottish crown than anyone but a son of King James and his Queen so is pretty unlikely who the allegations against Arran will be made here...

Kristine of Denmark married the Duke of Milan at 12 or 13 so I will say Arran asked her after her first wedding.
I am wondering if an ATL daughter of Albany by his first wife can work as substitute for her cousin if the latter died young... because really I never liked much Catherine...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Well Margaret Tudor was possible if Albany is more interested in cementing a position of power in Scotland for himself than in having heirs...

Well, I think Margaret could still pop out at least one (maybe two - at a push) child. Her grandmother, Elizabeth Wydeville had her last child at 42, and her great-grandmother, Jacquetta of Luxemburg had her last child at 45 - an age Marge won't reach until 1531/1534, so I think there may still be child(ren).

I am wondering if an ATL daughter of Albany by his first wife can work as substitute for her cousin if the latter died young... because really I never liked much Catherine...

IIRC, John and Anne de la Tour d'Auvergne's daughter was stillborn or died young, but she was older than OTL Henri II -so, heiress or not, if there's more than a year or three's difference, they might not wish to wed her there. I can't remember the exact date for the girl, though. And it's not unthinkable for Caterina to be wed elsewhere, or simply to die young.

 

[isabella]

Well, I think Margaret could still pop out at least one (maybe two - at a push) child. Her grandmother, Elizabeth Wydeville had her last child at 42, and her great-grandmother, Jacquetta of Luxemburg had her last child at 45 - an age Marge won't reach until 1531/1534, so I think there may still be child(ren).



IIRC, John and Anne de la Tour d'Auvergne's daughter was stillborn or died young, but she was older than OTL Henri II -so, heiress or not, if there's more than a year or three's difference, they might not wish to wed her there. I can't remember the exact date for the girl, though. And it's not unthinkable for Caterina to be wed elsewhere, or simply to die young.

My idea was Caterina die young freeing the whole inheritance of their mothers for her cousin...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

My idea was Caterina die young freeing the whole inheritance of their mothers for her cousin...

She can leave the whole inheritance and die young, but it's unlikely that her cousin is going to be considered for the dauphin.

 

[isabella]

She can leave the whole inheritance and die young, but it's unlikely that her cousin is going to be considered for the dauphin.

Well, unlike the mercantess Catherine she would be a full princess, daughter of a great French heiress, kinswoman of the Royal family and of a prince of Scotland. Plus she would be the only Scottish princess around (Margaret Douglas is not a princess) in her generation.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Well, unlike the mercantess Catherine she would be a full princess, daughter of a great French heiress, kinswoman of the Royal family and of a prince of Scotland. Plus she would be the only Scottish princess around (Margaret Douglas is not a princess) in her generation

Margaret Douglas might not have been a bona fide princess but IIRC Chapuys (and several other contemporary people in their letters) speak of her as "the Scots princess/princess of Scots" although I think it may have been more along the lines of a derogatory title referring to her pride and ambition.

 

[isabella]

Margaret Douglas might not have been a bona fide princess but IIRC Chapuys (and several other contemporary people in their letters) speak of her as "the Scots princess/princess of Scots" although I think it may have been more along the lines of a derogatory title referring to her pride and ambition.

Margaret Douglas maybe was called princess of Scots but she was only the king’s half-sister and niece of the King of England while Anne/Madeleine of Albany would be a full princess and we have few candidates for the Dauphin: England with Mary Tudor illegitimate has none, Portugal has only Maria of Viseu who can not marry the Dauphin being his stepsister, Spain and Austria also have nobody to offer excluding maybe Christine of Denmark and in any case after being forced to marry the sister of the Emperor he will not want marry his heir to another relative of his enemy so our Anne of Albany would have good chances to be chosen

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Margaret Douglas maybe was called princess of Scots but she was only the king’s half-sister and niece of the King of England while Anne/Madeleine of Albany would be a full princess and we have few candidates for the Dauphin: England with Mary Tudor illegitimate has none, Portugal has only Maria of Viseu who can not marry the Dauphin being his stepsister, Spain and Austria also have nobody to offer excluding maybe Christine of Denmark and in any case after being forced to marry the sister of the Emperor he will not want marry his heir to another relative of his enemy so our Anne of Albany would have good chances to be chosen

Depends on her age, I suppose. If she's born 1511/1512, then she's probably deemed too old for the dauphin/duc d'Orléans. She might even be married to James V during one of those times Albany is working with Maggie Tudor - as a symbol of a quasi-rapprochement between the royal line and the cadets. There's no record for any more children besides this daughter of Albany and Anne de la Tour d'Auvergne, so I don't think she'd have sisters or so. If she is born a bit later (around 1515/1516) she might considered for the dauphin/duc d'Orléans, but I wonder if she won't be in a similar position to Mary, QoS while Elizabeth was on the marriage market - everyone's gunning for marriage to Mary Tudor, so while they are interested in Mlle de Boulogne when Henry VIII is moving in a pro-Imperial direction, the minute he's back on the French track, the idea is dropped. And the idea is unlikely to take off during his marriage to Anne Boleyn who wants a French prince for her own daughter, so a match either has to take place before the 1530s or after Anne's head has escaped her.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

So, I've just come across two very conflicting pieces of information about Anne de la Tour de Auvergne (the Younger):

According to a French source, the marriage between her and Albany was "sterile" (barren), and it was only entered into in because Louis XII pushed for it as a way of preventing Anne's mother's new husband, the baron de la Garde, of obtaining too much influence in the Auvergne.

However, a German source on Anne relates that her death in 1524 was in childbed with her and Albany's first child, but no mention of whether the child was male/female/stillborn/died in infancy etc.

 

[isabella]

Depends on her age, I suppose. If she's born 1511/1512, then she's probably deemed too old for the dauphin/duc d'Orléans. She might even be married to James V during one of those times Albany is working with Maggie Tudor - as a symbol of a quasi-rapprochement between the royal line and the cadets. There's no record for any more children besides this daughter of Albany and Anne de la Tour d'Auvergne, so I don't think she'd have sisters or so. If she is born a bit later (around 1515/1516) she might considered for the dauphin/duc d'Orléans, but I wonder if she won't be in a similar position to Mary, QoS while Elizabeth was on the marriage market - everyone's gunning for marriage to Mary Tudor, so while they are interested in Mlle de Boulogne when Henry VIII is moving in a pro-Imperial direction, the minute he's back on the French track, the idea is dropped. And the idea is unlikely to take off during his marriage to Anne Boleyn who wants a French prince for her own daughter, so a match either has to take place before the 1530s or after Anne's head has escaped her.

Well Elizabeth Tudor is too young for any of the children of Francis I excluding Charles, who is the youngest son, while our princess will be at the worst nine years older than Elizabeth (if she was born in 1524). I do not know if the King of France will want/accept a wedding between the heiress of Auvergne and the King of Scotland so is likely who Francis will go with the OTL route to offer Madeleine or Margaret to James and one of his sons for Albany’s daughter (or if the girl is too old for the Dauphin/Orléans he can always marry her after Claude’s death) ...