Euskadi Herria
Banned
I don't know much about Ryukyu but it would be interesting to have a Ryukyu based maritime state in the East.
Not My Heifer Brainstorm (Results of Alternate Indo-European Migrations)
- Thread starter Bassarion Korax
- Start date
Bassarion Korax
Banned
Isn't that kind of what they were OTL, except subservient to China and Japan at various periods?
Euskadi Herria
Banned
Yes, but nowhere to the level of a fully developed civilization. Plus like you said, they were subservient to others.
Bassarion Korax
Banned
What would you consider to be a "fully developed civilization"? I would consider them to have been "fully developed", just not particularly powerful. Do you mean a regional power? Geographically, they're kind of dwarfed by surrounding powers, even if China remains balkanized. I could of course easily see them being "Austronesianized" given time if I had the material available to play with Formosan languages... alas, I don't.
Max Sinister
Banned
Very good! Without this info, I wouldn't want to start anything big. I have to know what exactly you're planning.
Rather than aborting the Yayoi period why not have demographic pressures push Tungusic peoples southwards? The proto-Altaic-speakers can also try and hop the Korean peninsula around the same time with the former largely inheriting the art and culture of the Jomon peoples and the latter forming a separate sphere tied to the Ryukyus, Shikoku, Kyushu and eastern Honshu (i.e: Chugoku and maybe Kansai). This culture would be related and influened by their Altaic cousins in Korea but form an independent polity.
This could completely change the dynamic of East Asia with a disunited Japan alongside a disunited China.
Bassarion Korax
Banned
Tungusic people’s are kind of out of the way, don’t you think? If an Indo-Europeanization of the Altai Mountains were to push Pre-Proto-Turks into conflict with Pre-Proto-Mongols on the Mongolian Plain, eventually resulting in a migration of the former eastward into Manchuria, eventually Para-Turkifying Korea and butterflying Koreanic into Siberia. Where is the opening for Tungusic peoples to come in through Korea?
Wouldn’t the Kamchatka peninsula and Kurils allow them to get there via island hopping?
EDIT: Sorry that was a massive brain fart. I meant the Chukotcho-Kamchatkans like the Koryaks, not Tungusic peoples.
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Bassarion Korax
Banned
Hahahaha!
I mean, I suppose, but... what's the incentive for them to move? The reason I suggested the possibility of Eskimo-Aleut-speakers earlier is because there are a number of loans from Yup'ik specifically in Northern Tungusic languages, which implies a larger former distribution in Siberia. Considering that we know for sure that the Yup'ik are the result of a back migration of Eskimo-Aleuts into Asia, this means that we know that they were on the move, so it's just a matter of giving them the right push. That said, I'm not sure the Eskimo-Aleut would be that much more productive than the Ainu, and I don't think the Koryaks would be either. Ultimately, I think Japan might just end up Japonic still, which I know is somewhat boring linguistically, but it definitely won't be the same culturally or religiously. Besides, who says Japonic ITTL has to sound like Japonic IOTL? I've already planned out significant changes for the evolution of Chinese languages from Old Chinese, such that they'll probably end up sounding something more like OTL Rgyalrongic. We could do something similar in terms of having the same language family but just sounding radically different with Japan as well.
Maybe have more goods entering Kamchatka on top of the obsidian trade? Obsidian from Southern Kamchatka ended up in the north and central Kurils while Obsidian from Hokaido was found in the southern Kurils.
Perhaps a strengthening of trade would get kamchatka denizens to go south. Maybe the Okhotsk region.
Natives of Kamchatka, more so the north, had access to metal as well, but it was only enough to decorate and engrave bone tools. A lot of the bone tools are quite nice to look at actually.
https://www.washington.edu/news/200...humans-settled-interacted-in-kuril-islands-2/
https://www.researchgate.net/public...mchatka_Peninsula_Initial_results_of_research
http://mek.oszk.hu/09200/09253/pdf/sato.pdf
Bassarion Korax
Banned
This could be a fun idea. It appears the Library of Congress also has a copy of Michael Fortescue's Comparative Dictionary of Chukotko-Kamchatkan, so that's nice. The thing is, Tsushima Island is visible from the Korean Peninsula on a clear day, and it seems kind of a foregone conclusion that eventually there is going to be some kind of colonization from Korea as there was IOTL, and the only other place we have any evidence for Japonic languages having ever existed outside of Japan is Korea. Furthermore, whatever colonists come in from Korea, be they Japonic or otherwise, they're likely to be agriculturalists, who will have a technological edge on the indigenous hunter-gatherer populations, even if Hokkaido is entirely Kamchatkanized by the time they arrive. I suppose if they were reindeer herders by the time they migrated and brought reindeer herding with them, that could give them more of a competitive edge if for no other reason giving them a higher population, but I guess I don't really see reindeer herding as being a lucrative venture on the Kurils when the fishing is so good.
All very valid points. However the proto-Eskimo-Aleuts could end up leading a sort of top down diffusion over the slightly faltering Jomon (which slightly recoveredrto form the more rustic but technologically advanced Yaoyi culture) and inherit a branch of their material culture as the Aryans did for the post-Harappan societies they met in the Indian subcontinent?
A Japonicized Aleutian tongue might be very interesting to explore.
Agreed with all of the above. I'd say most pacific northeast groups would be demographically swamped within a few generations. Would be cool to see what type of cultural flavors and elements they leave behind in their descendants though.
Maybe a love for Fly-argaric would be cool. Everyone likes hallucinogenic shrooms.
Max Sinister
Banned
A question - will some people from OTL completely disappear because of changed migrations? Will new ones crop up which didn't exist IOTL? Maybe some we count as "tribes" of bigger people IOTL?
Bassarion Korax
Banned
Certainly. I mean, for starters, there can be literally none of the same Indo-European peoples IOTL. There are no Celts, Greeks, Italics, Slavs or Germans, or Iranians or Aryans for that matter. Any and all Indo-European pan-ethnicities with the exception of “Anatolians” will be groups that we wouldn’t recognize, besides their looking more or less European. We already have the Sírkanais of Azerbaijan, but it’s already been mentioned ITTL that a large group of Hurricanes are beginning to wander around the Iranian Plateau - I intend to do something there.
And of course, the Han Chinese will only be themselves in as much as Italians, Romanians, and Portuguese are all Latin peoples, as I intend to keep China Balkanized.
In terms of disappearance, yes. I have recently been thinking that I want Semitic languages to go extinct, probably by the end of the 1st millennium BC, but I’m not 100% on that yet. I think Koreans will probably get swallowed up by someone as well, and I’m pretty sure I want to butterfly away the Austronesian colonization of Madagascar if I can.
That seems like something of an odd question, or maybe I misunderstood it.
On another note, I was reading through the thread on a unified India, and I thought that might be something fun to pursue... although it obviously wouldn’t be the India we know at all
Certainly. I mean, for starters, there can be literally none of the same Indo-European peoples IOTL. There are no Celts, Greeks, Italics, Slavs or Germans, or Iranians or Aryans for that matter. Any and all Indo-European pan-ethnicities with the exception of “Anatolians” will be groups that we wouldn’t recognize, besides their looking more or less European. We already have the Sírkanais of Azerbaijan, but it’s already been mentioned ITTL that a large group of Hurricanes are beginning to wander around the Iranian Plateau - I intend to do something there.
And of course, the Han Chinese will only be themselves in as much as Italians, Romanians, and Portuguese are all Latin peoples, as I intend to keep China Balkanized.
In terms of disappearance, yes. I have recently been thinking that I want Semitic languages to go extinct, probably by the end of the 1st millennium BC, but I’m not 100% on that yet. I think Koreans will probably get swallowed up by someone as well, and I’m pretty sure I want to butterfly away the Austronesian colonization of Madagascar if I can.
That seems like something of an odd question, or maybe I misunderstood it.
On another note, I was reading through the thread on a unified India, and I thought that might be something fun to pursue... although it obviously wouldn’t be the India we know at all
Just looking at the actual timeline and it seems that the Sabu or OTL Akkadian speakers are still around. Are they going to adopt some Indo-European language or become subsumed into Kumatic society such that they will be speaking what in OTL is Egyptian?
Also, if you do plan on creating a unified India, would it be a mainly Dravidian speaking state or would they speak a branch of Indo-European that would obviously not be Indo-Aryan. How would they migrate? Would they come from Sirkana?
I have tons of questions, but that only means you are doing an amazing job with the timeline as I'm just eager to hear more and more.
Now that I'm co-collaborating on this TL I have a few answers to these questions but to tell you all of them would be cheating. The next chapter I'm writing will be the first stepping stone towards introducing the Indo-Europeans who will eventually settle *India. All I can say is they will not be Sírkanais.
The Tsā'bū have a long history ahead of them and those that would have been called the Middle Kingdom of Kemet in a different time are going to be intrinsically involved with the Akkadians throughout their history...
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Bassarion Korax
Banned
*collaborating
Anyways, he’s not really asking anything that would spoil the timeline I think, since the post he quoted of mine did talk about Semitic languages potentially going extinct.
I believe in this thread I mentioned a more outward-looking Egypt, and certainly for a time I think that Egypt is going to be interested in colonizing various parts of the Levant, which would to some extent affect the Akkadians up with Egypt. Remember that the Akkadians currently inhabit Damascus and the surrounding area, over to the Golan Heights, with some tribes having made their first incursions in the Beqaa. The Egyptians have already intervened on the part of their Egyptophile allies at Gubla when the city was beset with incessant attacks by Akkadian tribesmen, but I don’t think their interests will go that far inland for the most part.
As for what happens to them, if Semitic languages go entirely extinct in the Levant, which I think they will, then they will be subsumed into the incoming flood of Indo-Europeans.
As Shahrasayr said, a united Northern India will be Indo-European, but not Indo-Aryan (obviously) and only after a large, fairly concentrated migration of Hurrians from the Iranian Plateau, meaning that the substrata in this Indo-European language will be from the BMAC and an eastern, highly divergent Hurrian variety. The language of the IVC or the Kubha-Vipaś substrate will be a factor in other Indian languages, but not the Indo-European ones.
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