AHC: Hundred Years' War between England and Holy Roman Empire

Deleted member 114175

What changes would be needed for the the Hundred Years' War to be fought between England and the HRE, instead of England and France?

Could English kings fight a a hundred year long intermittent war over their claims to the Holy Roman Empire, instead of to the Kingdom of France?

For a full swap, could the latter stage of the Guelphs and Ghibellines conflict be preempted or redirected, so that it's French kings instead of German kings trying to take over Italy?
 
I suppose it wouldn't technically be the Hundred Years' War if it weren't between England and France, but there's always the possibility of creating a year that lasts as long during about the same time period between England and the HRE. There would probably need to be an occurrence where the English have nobles that end up with holdings within the empire that threatens the Holy Roman Empire. The easiest place for something like this to happen would certainly be in the Low Countries. The English traded extensively there, especially with Flanders, so seeing Edward III marry Philippa of Hainaut makes a good amount of sense.

Anyway, one thing that could happen to start tensions could be the death of who would have become William II of Hainaut in OTL before his father, the reigning Count of Hainaut does. Assuming either no other sons are born, grow up past childhood, or die somehow before the old count, the oldest daughters of William I of Hainaut are Margaret and Philippa, who respectively married Louis VI, the Holy Roman Emperor (and a Bavarian Wittelsbach) and Edward III of England. In OTL, their brother William II died in 1345, so the county cleanly passed to Margaret, but only after Philippa and their other sisters gave up their own claims. Since some of the possessions of William I included Holland and Zeeland, which had some provisions that did not allow women to succeed to rule those counties (not a problem in Hainaut), this could lead to complications if Philippa, the only other sister married to a powerful monarch, refused to press her claims, and her husband Edward, at this point already looking for a reason to claim the French throne, is instead compelled or convinced to fight for his wife's claims instead.

It would be messy. Louis VI was an enemy of the House of Luxembourg, which produced the previous emperor (and in OTL, the succeeding one). If he goes to war on his wife's behalf in what would start off as a war for the succession of 3 important counties within the Empire that Louis can't afford to lose, Luxembourg would surely support Edward. The would be Black Prince could find himself engaged at a young age to foreign noblewoman or princess in the name of a formal alliance.

Phillip VI of France, the uncle of the Hainaut sisters, could sit back and wait for his own moment to claim part of the spoils or decide who he wants to support. Any chance to see the HRE lose imperial territory in the Low Countries is always good for France, but at the same time, Edward had been railing about his own claim to France, so Philip could just watch his two rivals beat each other up in the north, while demanding quite a bit for his neutrality from both sides.

The current emperor can't just give up his wife's claim. He absolutely needs to look strong here if Edward and Philippa continue to claim Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland, all while the House of Luxembourg would fully throw their support behind England to further pull him into their own camp against Louis and the House of Wittelsbach. The rest of the empire may have to pick sides here between the two rival camps.
 
What changes would be needed for the the Hundred Years' War to be fought between England and the HRE, instead of England and France?

What would be the basis for such a war? Formally, English pretext for the 100YW was a competing claim to the throne of France. This is a complete impossibility as far as the HRE is involved even if because it was not a hereditary empire. If was consider an "objective" reason, attempts of the Kings of France to expand their power at the expense of the major vassals (one of which happened to be a King of England), such a thing was not happening on a serious scale within the HRE and you need to grant the kings of England some substantial territories within the HRE: how would this happen? Then, again, if King of England could consider it below his dignity to acknowledge a vassal dependency to the King of France, there was nothing offensive in acknowledging such a relation with an Emperor (his rank was unquestionably higher than one of a king).

A localized conflict over some limited territorial claim (for example, in the Netherlands) hardly could last for a century (even if because the imperial dynasties at that time tended to change more frequently) and hardly would involve the whole HRE.

Last but not least, what could be the theater of such a war? In OTL the English could/did easily land in Normandy, Brittany and Bordeaux but they could get to the HRE only through the Low Countries.

OTOH, with the HRE being a political mess, it is possible to assume that (if they managed to establish a solid base on the continent) they can maintain some kind of a military activities by making alliances with various entities within the HRE. But, again, there should be some basis and some German interest.

For a full swap, could the latter stage of the Guelphs and Ghibellines conflict be preempted or redirected, so that it's French kings instead of German kings trying to take over Italy?

You'd need to figure out how to eliminate the imperial claims to the Italian territories but other than that, the Italian Wars did start with the French invasion and, much earlier, Charles of Anjou did conquer the Naples.
 
I think it would be possible. The stuff we have to consider is how would this affect the broad political, economic, religious currents of Europe.

The OTL 100 Years War facilitated the development of centralized English and French political regimes. Would the same thing happen for the HRE: creating a level of political centralization not seen since the Hohenstaufens? Would the northern Italian holdings be a part of this?
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Britain and the Western entities (Dutch duchies etc) could dispute a HRE election, maybe one that overturned a King of the Romans to go straight to a new HR Emperor. The war would be on and off, but mainly about whether the HRE really included the Low Countries, Lorraine etc, and England using the Imperial crown claim as its basis
 
For the English kings to have a claim, the HRE needs to be a hereditary monarchy. It could have become one, just like the other Carolingian successor (France) did. It's a little surprising to me that it didn't, actually.
 
Richard of Cornwall becomes King of England and tries to press his claim on the Empire but faces opposition from the Stauffer party (either Alfonso of Castille or Rudolph of Habsburg), the conflict prolongs for 100 years after.
 
Britain and the Western entities (Dutch duchies etc) could dispute a HRE election, maybe one that overturned a King of the Romans to go straight to a new HR Emperor. The war would be on and off, but mainly about whether the HRE really included the Low Countries, Lorraine etc, and England using the Imperial crown claim as its basis
England did not ha any say in the HRE elections and could not dispute anything. Anyway, dispute could be linked to a specific candidate and there is no practical way for it to result in a century of the hostilities. Neither was there a practical way forEngland to maintain such an effort with any chance for success because situation was quite different from OTL conflict: very different geography, no established English base on the HRE territory, etc.
 
What if the anglo-imperial-flemish coalition wins during the battle of Bouvines on 1214? Could an independant Flandres be the object of some power plays between England and the HRE? Assume afterwards some daughters get married outz to strengthen the alliance and the male.line dies out some time later. A succession crisis for a rich and well organized duchy looks as the perfect recipe for a long war.
 

Deleted member 114175

What would be the basis for such a war? Formally, English pretext for the 100YW was a competing claim to the throne of France. This is a complete impossibility as far as the HRE is involved even if because it was not a hereditary empire. If was consider an "objective" reason, attempts of the Kings of France to expand their power at the expense of the major vassals (one of which happened to be a King of England), such a thing was not happening on a serious scale within the HRE and you need to grant the kings of England some substantial territories within the HRE: how would this happen? Then, again, if King of England could consider it below his dignity to acknowledge a vassal dependency to the King of France, there was nothing offensive in acknowledging such a relation with an Emperor (his rank was unquestionably higher than one of a king).

A localized conflict over some limited territorial claim (for example, in the Netherlands) hardly could last for a century (even if because the imperial dynasties at that time tended to change more frequently) and hardly would involve the whole HRE.

Last but not least, what could be the theater of such a war? In OTL the English could/did easily land in Normandy, Brittany and Bordeaux but they could get to the HRE only through the Low Countries.

OTOH, with the HRE being a political mess, it is possible to assume that (if they managed to establish a solid base on the continent) they can maintain some kind of a military activities by making alliances with various entities within the HRE. But, again, there should be some basis and some German interest.



You'd need to figure out how to eliminate the imperial claims to the Italian territories but other than that, the Italian Wars did start with the French invasion and, much earlier, Charles of Anjou did conquer the Naples.
With an early POD, could we set up the English interest in Germany earlier, similar to the Angevin Empire but in the HRE? Later the Hundred Years' War would be a natural culmination in the English rise and fall there.

My knowledge on specific dynasties is limited, but could Henry the Lion's domains be kept and inherited by one daughter, a German analogue to Eleanor of Aquitaine, who marries an English noble and passes on Saxony and/or Bavaria to someone close to the English throne?

Also, while the non-hereditary nature of the HRE makes a direct claim less justifiable -- does the electoral nature of the HRE make it so a spurious claim can be more easily pressed? If the Anarchy didn't happen and England was strong in the mid 11th century, could Empress Matilda claim the HRE for herself, by her marriage to the previous HRE?
 
With an early POD, could we set up the English interest in Germany earlier, similar to the Angevin Empire but in the HRE? Later the Hundred Years' War would be a natural culmination in the English rise and fall there.

My knowledge on specific dynasties is limited, but could Henry the Lion's domains be kept and inherited by one daughter, a German analogue to Eleanor of Aquitaine, who marries an English noble and passes on Saxony and/or Bavaria to someone close to the English throne?

Also, while the non-hereditary nature of the HRE makes a direct claim less justifiable -- does the electoral nature of the HRE make it so a spurious claim can be more easily pressed? If the Anarchy didn't happen and England was strong in the mid 11th century, could Empress Matilda claim the HRE for herself, by her marriage to the previous HRE?

An interesting scenario, possibly, regarding Matilda would be if her first husband, Henry V of the HRE, survived past 1125 and went ahead and managed to outlive Henry I of England, who still would not have had any male heirs since William's death still happens as in OTL. Surely by this time Matilda would have borne Henry V children, but assuming they are underage at the time Henry I's death, would the barons of England be able to resist Matilda like they did in OTL when she brings the might of the HRE to back up her rightful claim? Not only that, if she has a son, that son is intertwined closely with England and the HRE. I also can't imagine her son being called anything else but Henry.

This ATL Henry II of England suddenly finds himself in a very powerful position, being the heir to the Norman dynasty and the Salian dynasty that ended with Henry V in OTL, one with English, Norman, and German holdings.
 

Scaevola

Banned
Would never happen unless the POD occurs before Otto I's coronation as emperor. If the kings of France can become Holy Roman Emperors, then we're talking.
Plainly speaking, the English elite were too distant culturally from Germans, and too close culturally to the Parisian French, to go that route. France has more population, more arable land, and more secure frontiers than Germany. France is a day or two across the choppy Channel whereas Germany is a four days to a week across the dangerous open North Sea, or a week and more across the Channel then along the coast. It snows less in France and the land has greater sunlight for crop yield. France's nobles are starting to (by the 1300s) become weaker than the king and subservient to him, Germany's nobles have never been stronger in relation to the emperor. Despite the title of emperor, the crown of France held more prestige.

TL;DR but y tho
 
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