The Japanese take Darwin in World War II.

[Zheng He]

If they are sufficiently successful in providing resistance, I wonder if it might be possible to convince the Japanese to withdraw like the did in the Aleutians before the expected major battle for Darwin even happens.

As the position gets increasingly untenable, I could see them pulling their troops back to Timor.

 

[Fearless Leader]

It's a near certainty, really. And they will highly motivated and difficult for the Japanese to deal with which will both hurt the Japanese morale while stories of the splits of the boys in the Outback will boost morale in Australia and the rest of the allied powers will take notice as well. If they are sufficiently successful in providing resistance, I wonder if it might be possible to convince the Japanese to withdraw like the did in the Aleutians before the expected major battle for Darwin even happens.

Honestly I think a limited occupation is the only way the Navy sells the army on invading Darwin in the first place assuming a similar strategic situation to OTL. I know it assumes a level of competence not usually associated with the IJN but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

 

[History Learner]

Honestly I think a limited occupation is the only way the Navy sells the army on invading Darwin in the first place assuming a similar strategic situation to OTL. I know it assumes a level of competence not usually associated with the IJN but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

The Darwin operation actually emerged from the Army, it was suggested by Yamashita as it became clear Singapore was about to fall. His view was also of a limited operation just to secure Darwin and its immediate environs, which could be done by a brigade or less after the initial invasion had been done.

 

[Zheng He]

Honestly I think a limited occupation is the only way the Navy sells the army on invading Darwin in the first place assuming a similar strategic situation to OTL. I know it assumes a level of competence not usually associated with the IJN but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

Maybe a combination of SNLF troops and a second line IJA formation like the 65th Infantry Brigade.

 

[History Learner]

Sure and there are two possibilities:

1. The Japanese take Darwin and the British feel there is less of a threat to Ceylon, especially since this may well butterfly away OPERATION C since the KB will likely be busy covering the invasion of Darwin.

Invasion would be in February, the Indian Ocean raid can proceed as OTL.

 

[Zheng He]

Invasion would be in February, the Indian Ocean raid can proceed as OTL.

Highly unlikely the invasion happens before the DEI are secured. The DEI were the main objective of the whole operation. Since invading Darwin was never part of the original plan, the Japanese high command is not going to give it serious consideration, let alone divert forces and allocate substantial amounts of shipping until after the main objectives are secured and they are trying to figure out what to do next.

 

[Zheng He]

 

[History Learner]

Highly unlikely the invasion happens before the DEI are secured. The DEI were the main objective of the whole operation. Since invading Darwin was never part of the original plan, the Japanese high command is not going to give it serious consideration, let alone divert forces and allocate substantial amounts of shipping until after the main objectives are secured and they are trying to figure out what to do next.

By late February the Allied position was collapsing and the unexpected success in Singapore had moved up Japanese time tables. A temporary redirection of the Timor landing force, as Yamashita proposed, would suffice for shipping and only delay taking Timor for a few weeks at most; the invasion of Darwin already renders any threat from the island non-existent anyway.

 

[Zheng He]

Yamashita's proposals were never seriously considered and in fact were rejected out of hand by Tojo. Not to mention the fact that the issue was debated in February. Yamamoto proposed it after Darwin was bombed which was done to cover the Timor invasion and Yamashita agreed with Yamamoto and apparently volunteered to lead the invasion himself. However, all of this was being discussed and debated in late February which means even if the decision is made, you still have to assemble the forces and get them ready.

https://www.ozatwar.com/japsland/invade01.htm

https://www.theage.com.au/national/japanese-invasion-a-myth-historian-20020601-gdu9c8.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Japanese_invasion_of_Australia_during_World_War_II

 

[History Learner]

Yamashita's proposals were never seriously considered and in fact were rejected out of hand by Tojo. Not to mention the fact that the issue was debated in February. Yamamoto proposed it after Darwin was bombed which was done to cover the Timor invasion and Yamashita agreed with Yamamoto and apparently volunteered to lead the invasion himself. However, all of this was being discussed and debated in late February which means even if the decision is made, you still have to assemble the forces and get them ready.

https://www.ozatwar.com/japsland/invade01.htm

https://www.theage.com.au/national/japanese-invasion-a-myth-historian-20020601-gdu9c8.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Japanese_invasion_of_Australia_during_World_War_II

Yes, the forces used to land at Timor. This is exactly what Yamashita proposed; sailing on to Darwin and just using those forces.

 

[jlckansas]

Start building a road and parallel it with the road bed for the rail line. Set it up as Narrow gauge on a standard gauge roadbed so you can always upgrade it later on. Put communication and utility, water and fuel pipelines alongside the the railway and road. Leapfrog your construction units like the UP and CP did building the transcontinental railroad in the US. The US has plenty of institutional memory building roads and railroads and they do not have to relearn the skills needed.

 

[Zheng He]

Yes, the forces used to land at Timor. This is exactly what Yamashita proposed; sailing on to Darwin and just using those forces.

No, your timeline does not mesh with the facts. Yamamoto proposed the idea after Darwin was bombed. Darwin was bombed on the same day Timor was invaded (19 February). Yamashita said he wanted to discuss the idea with Tojo after Singapore fell which happened on 15 February. That means if he and Yamamoto's good ideas are actually accepted, it doesn't happen until late February or early March well after Timor is invaded. Then you have to organize and assemble the forces, none of which happens overnight.

I realize these sorts of facts don't match the narrative you are trying to sell so by all means continue to ignore them. Better yet, why don't you write an actual TL on this instead of trying to just pitch same arguments over and over again.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Darwin is too far away to be a serious threat to the supply line to Port Moresby.

However, what if Darwin had been taken in February 1942 and the Australian Government decided that it was a prelude to an invasion of the rest of Australia?

Would they have evacuated Port Moresby (and Timor) to strengthen the defences of Australia?

OTL the Invasion of Sumatra lasted from 14th February to 28th March, the Invasion of Java was from 28th February to 12th March and the Battle of the Java Sea was on 27th February.

If the Japanese had taken Darwin in February 1942, would the Australians and British also have withdrawn their forces from Java and Sumatra sooner to strengthen the defences of Australia?

 

[b0ned0me]

It might make things a little easier if we ask a mod to replace “Darwin” with “part of Northern Territory” in the thread title. It seems to be generating an unnecessary amount of heat for a fly-speck if a settlement that would be completely irrelevant in terms of the number of combatants. I live in a place twice the size of 1942 Darwin and it’s basicallly a village with two small supermarkets and one hotel that’s gone bust. If the Japanese deployed three divisions that would be more than 20 times the population of Darwin.

Even more ridiculously, if some idiot had built a train line to Darwin in this timeframe you could probably increase or decrease the towns population 10% with a single small passenger train which clarifies why it wasn’t built.

 

[Johnrankins]

It might make things a little easier if we ask a mod to replace “Darwin” with “part of Northern Territory” in the thread title. It seems to be generating an unnecessary amount of heat for a fly-speck if a settlement that would be completely irrelevant in terms of the number of combatants. I live in a place twice the size of 1942 Darwin and it’s basicallly a village with two small supermarkets and one hotel that’s gone bust. If the Japanese deployed three divisions that would be more than 20 times the population of Darwin.

Even more ridiculously, if some idiot had built a train line to Darwin in this timeframe you could probably increase or decrease the towns population 10% with a single small passenger train which clarifies why it wasn’t built.

It really must have boomed at one point for it to have been that small. If it was that small the Wallies can take their time getting it. Since it was so small I doubt there were other major settlements nearby. If that is the case it could be treated like the Channel Islands or the Aleutians, of no real importance and you will get to it when you get to it.

 

[b0ned0me]

It really must have boomed at one point for it to have been that small. If it was that small the Wallies can take their time getting it. Since it was so small I doubt there were other major settlements nearby. If that is the case it could be treated like the Channel Islands or the Aleutians, of no real importance and you will get to it when you get to it.

If you check out the wiki page it was apparently 2,538 people in 1947, 8,071 in 1954 and 15.5k in 1961 so it took a long time to get to a decent size. Hell, the entire Northern Territory was less than 20k people in 1956 for a million and a half square km. Quite likely doesn’t count aborigines but even so if the Japanese dump 3 divisions there they will probably quadruple the population of the territory.

 

[Johnrankins]

If you check out the wiki page it was apparently 2,538 people in 1947, 8,071 in 1954 and 15.5k in 1961 so it took a long time to get to a decent size. Hell, the entire Northern Territory was less than 20k people in 1956 for a million and a half square km. Quite likely doesn’t count aborigines but even so if the Japanese dump 3 divisions there they will probably quadruple the population of the territory.

My guess then is that it winds up, in the words of David Floyd in this thread, "Darwin turns into a self sufficient POW camp". Like the Aluetian Islands or the Channel Islands they are mostly ignored and the Allies get around to dealing with it in 1943 or 1944.

 

[Zheng He]

My guess then is that it winds up, in the words of David Floyd in this thread, "Darwin turns into a self sufficient POW camp". Like the Aluetian Islands or the Channel Islands they are mostly ignored and the Allies get around to dealing with it in 1943 or 1944.

I think most of us agree with that and I have no doubt the big brains in London and Washington will see it that way but how does that approach play in Canberra? Probably the most interesting aspect of this whole thing is its effect on post war relations among various Allies.

 

[Ian_W]

I think most of us agree with that and I have no doubt the big brains in London and Washington will see it that way but how does that approach play in Canberra? Probably the most interesting aspect of this whole thing is its effect on post war relations among various Allies.

The Japanese occupying just Darwin is pretty pointless - it really is too far away to support a campaign against the rest of Australia that might actually force the US fleet into battle, or see the SLOC between the US and Australia severed.

On the other hand, if it's the first step in a series of landings, then it makes some sort of sense.

But that puts you in the arms of the Australian Tar Baby ...

 

[Johnrankins]

I think most of us agree with that and I have no doubt the big brains in London and Washington will see it that way but how does that approach play in Canberra? Probably the most interesting aspect of this whole thing is its effect on post war relations among various Allies.

It can be pointed out to them that the Allies did the same thing in their worthless territories, the Aleutians and the Channel Islands.