Flag Thread IV
- Thread starter Pragmatic Progressive
- Start date
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Dorozhand
Banned
I lied. One more variation. This one is less overtly drawn from the Bulgarian flag. The purple represents Macedonia's importance in the history of the Eastern Roman Empire and the legacy of the Macedonian dynasty, during which time Drama, the country's capital, became a major city.
Speaking of which, ITTL the conclusion of the Balkan War gave Bulgaria control over northern Macedonia and the city of Thessaloniki, while the Kgdm. of Macedonia's border was established. Starting from Bulgarian Macedonia the border encompassed the town of Kilkis along with one of the two railroads leading south toward Thessaloniki, before curving southeastwards into the Chalkidiki to encompass the two lakes and Sithonia, but not Kassandras or Killikratias. In the east, the border encompassed the river Nestos, meeting the sea west of Xanthe, which was annexed by Bulgaria along with much of Thrace. With its capital at Drama, Macedonia was a small country and did not interfere much with Bulgarian shipping, nor did it occupy the most important ports in the region, although the kingdom does have access to significant mineral deposits and tobacco fields.
ITTL Bulgaria has still more than accomplished its war aims and for the time being allows Macedonia to exist as a trusted ally and buffer state between it and Greece.
As for what happens after that, Serbia and Bulgaria or Greece and Bulgaria will likely go to war in the near future and Macedonia will have to choose a side. Likely, this side will be Bulgaria's, but whether they can survive Bulgaria losing the Second Balkan War I am not sure. If Bulgaria wins, then Macedonia will probably be in great shape. If the First World War still rolls around on schedule (unlikely, especially with a Bulgarian victory, but not inconceivable), then Macedonia may well join the Central Powers, which will lock them into the CP's fate. It may yet survive though. Another thing I could imagine is Macedonia remaining neutral like Greece, and then join the allies when or if the Salonika invasion happens. they could then possibly gain territory at Bulgaria's expense. Perhaps in the post-war world Macedonia would try to repair relations with Germany and Bulgaria and lean towards an allo-Axis if Germany still turns to revanchism.
Here's the variant with purple. I'm not sure which I like better.
Speaking of which, ITTL the conclusion of the Balkan War gave Bulgaria control over northern Macedonia and the city of Thessaloniki, while the Kgdm. of Macedonia's border was established. Starting from Bulgarian Macedonia the border encompassed the town of Kilkis along with one of the two railroads leading south toward Thessaloniki, before curving southeastwards into the Chalkidiki to encompass the two lakes and Sithonia, but not Kassandras or Killikratias. In the east, the border encompassed the river Nestos, meeting the sea west of Xanthe, which was annexed by Bulgaria along with much of Thrace. With its capital at Drama, Macedonia was a small country and did not interfere much with Bulgarian shipping, nor did it occupy the most important ports in the region, although the kingdom does have access to significant mineral deposits and tobacco fields.
ITTL Bulgaria has still more than accomplished its war aims and for the time being allows Macedonia to exist as a trusted ally and buffer state between it and Greece.
As for what happens after that, Serbia and Bulgaria or Greece and Bulgaria will likely go to war in the near future and Macedonia will have to choose a side. Likely, this side will be Bulgaria's, but whether they can survive Bulgaria losing the Second Balkan War I am not sure. If Bulgaria wins, then Macedonia will probably be in great shape. If the First World War still rolls around on schedule (unlikely, especially with a Bulgarian victory, but not inconceivable), then Macedonia may well join the Central Powers, which will lock them into the CP's fate. It may yet survive though. Another thing I could imagine is Macedonia remaining neutral like Greece, and then join the allies when or if the Salonika invasion happens. they could then possibly gain territory at Bulgaria's expense. Perhaps in the post-war world Macedonia would try to repair relations with Germany and Bulgaria and lean towards an allo-Axis if Germany still turns to revanchism.
Here's the variant with purple. I'm not sure which I like better.
Colours work, proportions good, and relevant symbology. Well done.
An in-universe graphic breaking down the design of the US flag.
You could get away with increasing the white stripe so the blue is a square and thinning the white ring but perfection isn't necessarily realistic
AlvinTheCreator
Banned
Hellenic People's Republic
The Greek Question was, by all accounts, a source of contention between the winning powers of the Great War. The hyper-nationalistic Ottoman camp sought to annex the kingdom all together into the Turkish empire, while the moderates sought simple subjugation into suzerainty. The Bulgarians also wanted Greek territory, while the Ottomans themselves had ideas of their own when it came to Bulgaria's position. The issue was resolved in July 1917, when Greece officially surrendered. The Treaty of Varna concluded peace in the Balkan Front; since Germany was unwilling to provide none of the other victors too much power, it was declared that both Turkey and Bulgaria would receive minor territorial concessions, while the rest of Greece would simply be financially and militarily burdened. The growing waves of communist thinking in France and Britain influenced the ideology of several defeated nations, mainly Greece. The crippling humiliation and devastating economic reparations crushed the people's morale; King Alexander was dethroned after a series of communist protests that escalated into a revolution around August. This led to the outburst of the Greek Civil War (1917-1918) between monarchists and the newly-formed Hellenic People's Party. The swift war led to a communist victory, and by early 1918, the Hellenic People's Republic was established. It supported communist efforts in Spain, France and Britain, and became a key player in Balkan affairs there after.
The flag is different from traditional socialist emblems. It features the delta, the third letter of the Greek alphabet, which stands for Demokratia, which means both "democracy" and "republic". This is also the symbol of Hellenic communism: a natively-Greek branch of communism.
AlvinTheCreator
Banned
Malagasy Federation
A latter effect of the highly ineffective communist administration over the colonial of France was an incredible spike in economic abuse as the French coffers ran low. Industrial output was severely affected by the socialist policies, which minimized profits and created a very unstable administration. Paris needed a way to offset these losses, and they quickly turned to Africa. Native workers were brutally oppressed, forced to labor in plantations and manufacture facilities. By the late 20's, some 50 million workers had been killed throughout French Africa due to this inhumane program. The colonial administration was also very ineffective: local governors enforced their rules through violence and bloody repression. This mixture of social discomfort led to a nationalistic revival among the native community. In the spring of 1929, when sowing season began and authorities renewed their violent practices, a general revolt spread. The Malagasy War of Independence (1929-1930) was brief yet decisive, as the French had placed few troops in Madagascar and replenishment was difficult (supplies had to go around the African continent, as the Suez Canal had been blocked). Pierre Rabetsara, a former plantation worker, led the revolution, and after the French were expelled, declared the Malagasy Federation in early 1930, with him as President. Although ideas of democracy and justice were at the forefront of the revolutionary struggle, Rabetsara quickly overrode the young Constitution and led the country down a path of authoritarianism and fascism.
The flag features the Ravenala, a broad palm tree and a symbol of Madagascar (which can also be found in OTL state seal of Madagascar). The red saltire symbolizes the unity forged by the sacrifice of those who died before and during the war of independence; the green represents nature and peace, while the golden border means wealth for all and the diversity of the Federation.
Next up is Arkansas. The only real change I made here was removing the text and adding another star. Here, the four blue stars on the edges represent the four nations that have historically laid claim to Arkansas: France, Spain, the Confederacy, and the United States. The central blue star represents the state of Arkansas itself.
Backstory
Amidst the successful reform program in the USSR, the flag debate proved a major subject. To placate nationalist tendencies the Politburo agreed to create new flags yet again for the republics. It was agreed that they would incorporate national symbols while continuing to assert their status as Soviet entities. To avoid the project backfiring, a test run was launched in the Central Asian republics, which were considered the most stable and relatively loyal compared to other regions, some of which (Lithuania, Azerbaijan) were experiencing active insurgencies. Premiers of four republics, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan were ordered to open flag redesign committees.
Turkmen SSR: Two blue stripes replaced with colours of Khanate of Khiva till 1917
Tajik SSR: Expanded size of colours to fit new symbolism designed by same designers of OTL independent Tajikistan
Kyrgyz SSR: Symbol of sun containing a yurt from OTL flag designers, placed between the blue-white stripes of previous flag
Uzbek SSR: Mostly identical to previous flag, now containing 12 stars representing the months of the year, and more subtlety the islamic calender (allowed due to loosening of Soviet religious suppression).
Amidst the successful reform program in the USSR, the flag debate proved a major subject. To placate nationalist tendencies the Politburo agreed to create new flags yet again for the republics. It was agreed that they would incorporate national symbols while continuing to assert their status as Soviet entities. To avoid the project backfiring, a test run was launched in the Central Asian republics, which were considered the most stable and relatively loyal compared to other regions, some of which (Lithuania, Azerbaijan) were experiencing active insurgencies. Premiers of four republics, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan were ordered to open flag redesign committees.
Turkmen SSR: Two blue stripes replaced with colours of Khanate of Khiva till 1917
Tajik SSR: Expanded size of colours to fit new symbolism designed by same designers of OTL independent Tajikistan
Kyrgyz SSR: Symbol of sun containing a yurt from OTL flag designers, placed between the blue-white stripes of previous flag
Uzbek SSR: Mostly identical to previous flag, now containing 12 stars representing the months of the year, and more subtlety the islamic calender (allowed due to loosening of Soviet religious suppression).
Attachments
Dorozhand
Banned
While the flag is really cool, I don't see how socialist France could continue to exploit colonies. Colonialist exploitation is capitalism, the product of the once powerless bourgeoisie gaining demographic leverage over the small but powerful landed aristocracy through urbanization and the dismantling of feudal systems. Socialism is the dismantling of capitalist exploitation; the product of the large and once powerless proletariat gaining leverage over the small but powerful bourgeoisie through strike action. In each case, a class has taken advantage of weaknesses in an ossified system to advance its own interests. The interests of the bourgeoisie are continuous and increasing acquisition at everyone else's expense; the interests of the proletariat are those of everyone else in the world who has been excluded from the collective prosperity produced by our own alienated labor. This fundamental aspect defines socialist revolution.
AlvinTheCreator
Banned
I'll give you that. But then again, wasn't the Soviet Union a massive tyrannical dictatorship were a select few exploited the mass majority to keep their own wealth and power? Just as portrayed by Orwellian literature, communism leads to a form of "disguised" capitalism, hidden by nationalism, propaganda and whatever the regime makes you believe. Since France is low on cash, and they happen to sit over a gold mine, they won't oppress natives (who they considered inferior) simply because it goes against the state ideology. In many cases, communist rulers don't truly believe in the cause, they just seek power and wealth.
Dorozhand
Banned
Kick
Nope. The USSR underwent the greatest revolution in human quality of life that any society in the 20th century saw. Socialist production did not take the form of an imperial system of exploitation, but a vehicle of cooperative labor and distribution that benefited the periphery as much as the center. Yes, cultural phenomena occurred which were at times regrettable, but no aspect of this from the prison system to the cult of personality or the occasional abuse of the psychiatric system was either unique to the USSR or in any way attributable to the socialist revolution of production. If anything, most of the failures of policy attributable to the Stalin era specifically can be understood as an uncritical attitude towards advances in western academic thinking which at the time were more often than not deeply incorrect. It should have been socialist theorists like Kollontai or Zemlyachka that guided the party's course in these fronts, especially during these dangerous post-Tsarist times, as uneliminated patriarchal structures contributed a great deal to keeping the social revolutions of the USSR from what they could have been.
It's also rather cynical to assume that only slavery in colonies could benefit French industry. The best thing for France by far in relation to its colonies would have been to immediately establish self-rule and act in the defense of any of the free colonies that are then inevitably attacked by other European powers. The cooperation that could then occur would be of much greater benefit to all, as was the goal of socialist revolution in the first place; that the people of the world could have access to the collective prosperity of our own labor. The goal of a productive institution in a socialist economy is not the maximization of profits but the maximization of production as a vehicle for social work according to educated plans; to be a guarantor of the economic rights of the people.
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AlvinTheCreator
Banned
I'm sure the tens of millions of people who died under the regime of Stalin beg to differ, not counting the 6.5 million people who died only between 1932-1933 due to famine, caused primarily due to Soviet collectivization programs and other forms of agricultural policies which decimated the population and economic productivity of the country. Whatever the case, communism will inevitably lead to any form of despotic rule veiled under the premise of "people's power" (Animal Farm is a primary example of this). In this scenario, we can expect a post-revolutionary France with no money, needing a way to extract money quickly. Colonial exploitation was a pretty good way of doing that, as inhumane as it was.
Dorozhand
Banned
Bringing up Animal Farm is pretty cliche and you know Orwell was a socialist right?
Speaking of cliche, the Black Book of Communism is notorious. Pretty much all of its numbers were pulled from whole cloth.
Cliche but is backed by history, nearly all communist states started or ended up as authoritarian regimes.
So, few things here.
The USSR was a fucking black spot on human history, and I could care less what anyone says, this is coming from a leftist. The USSR destroyed the vision of Marx and stained his ideology with the blood of millions, something that will never wash clean, from the human rights violations starting as early as Lenin. The very nation that sought to Marx's dreams choked them out in the crib.
Even away from the fact that it was self destructive to it's own asserted ideology, regardless of political creed, the USSR was a totalitarian hellscape through most, if not all, of it's history. There's a reason that Stalin is argued for being worse than Hitler, I'm not trying to bring up that debate, but if your leader was awful enough to draw that comparison, something is deeply wrong. There were people that had hope, that believed in the good that the USSR could have achieved, but they were either drowned out by the rest of the mainstream party or shot to death in a shittily lit alleyway.
Defending the USSR, in any respect, is heinous, horrific, an insult to yourself and the left in General. Orwell was a socialist, thus that is the entire reason he wrote Animal Farm. The Left, the actual humanitarian left, the one Marx dreamed of, the one that any and all true members of the progressive age are a part of, will dismay the USSR with any and all faculties available to them.
The USSR was a mistake. Lenin purged his own ideology. It was a regime built from the ground up on the suppression of liberty, democracy, and freedom. Socialism and communism cannot exist without those factors that the Union went out of its way to destroy.
"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
Sources: Basic common knowledge. The End of Tsarist Russia: The March to World War I and Revolution by Dominic Lieven. Revolutionary Russia, 1891-1991: A History by Orlando Figes. The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx. Europe: A History by Norman Davies. A life of studying the USSR, communism, socialism, and their effects on history and how they fit into our modern view of the concept of revolutionary socialism.
And I can't disagree with your opposition to the regimes of Stalin, Mao, etc., but communism isn't all gulags and starvation. Anarchists and other libertarian-minded types have opposed both capitalism and authoritarian regimes masquerading as "communism" - whose leaders usually didn't have any intention of abolishing the state unlike libcoms - since the days of Lenin.
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Nice literal Soviet era propaganda, bud.
I'm done with this conversation.
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