Westernized Islamic Maghreb TL (Brainstorming/WI/PC/AHC)

[snassni2]

I don't get it. You want a westernized muslim maghreb but you want to make them follow a sect that is not muslim? Doen't make sense IMO. Just get rid of the islamic in the title.
What does westernized mean?

 

[Euskadi Herria]

I don't get it. You want a westernized muslim maghreb but you want to make them follow a sect that is not muslim? Doen't make sense IMO. Just get rid of the islamic in the title.
What does westernized mean?

What I'm going for is a Maghreb which follows an Islamic sect that isn't regarded as Islamic by other muslims (look at Alawites). Westernized means that it is part of the western cultural sphere (a.k.a Europe).

 

[TachfineAlMansour]

What I'm going for is a Maghreb which follows an Islamic sect that isn't regarded as Islamic by other muslims (look at Alawites). Westernized means that it is part of the western cultural sphere (a.k.a Europe).

Just a Chiite sect would be pretty hard to pull out, remember that the almohads were regarded as heretics by the other powers, that mainly pointed the fact that Ibn Tumart took the place of the prophet, and in a sense it was a cause of their demise. I would advice to take a very libertinated Shafe'i morocco, that's my best advice. And whatever you do, if you keep your POD, BUTTERFLY THE ALMORAVIDS, they are the worst thing that can happen to your Morocco.

 

[Euskadi Herria]

Just a Chiite sect would be pretty hard to pull out, remember that the almohads were regarded as heretics by the other powers, that mainly pointed the fact that Ibn Tumart took the place of the prophet, and in a sense it was a cause of their demise. I would advice to take a very libertinated Shafe'i morocco, that's my best advice. And whatever you do, if you keep your POD, BUTTERFLY THE ALMORAVIDS, they are the worst thing that can happen to your Morocco.

Yeah, the Almoravids are a pain.

 

[Planet of Hats]

No Banu Hilal migration is probably a good start, not only in terms of retaining a more Berber cultural feeling, but in terms of retaining the necessary infrastructure to support a prosperous North African string of societies and communities. The arrival of the Banu Hilal turned North Africa from a net food exporter to a net food importer - they brought their goats with them, and goats are pretty damned good at stripping every last edible thing from a patch of ground. Ibn Khaldun notes that anywhere the Banu Hilal went, they left a desert. Add that to their societal impact: They not only brought their language and culture, but they reduced urbanity in the region and increased reliance on nomadism, and they broke up key trade networks in the region and introduced even more instability than already existed. Avoid their arrival, and Ifriqiya and the Maghreb remain greener, with more farms and more cities, more reliance on Berber languages and more opportunities to have larger concentrated populations with higher numbers of specialists.

Basically just averting the Banu Hilal in and of itself gets you halfway to what you're going for.

 

[Euskadi Herria]

No Banu Hilal migration is probably a good start, not only in terms of retaining a more Berber cultural feeling, but in terms of retaining the necessary infrastructure to support a prosperous North African string of societies and communities. The arrival of the Banu Hilal turned North Africa from a net food exporter to a net food importer - they brought their goats with them, and goats are pretty damned good at stripping every last edible thing from a patch of ground. Ibn Khaldun notes that anywhere the Banu Hilal went, they left a desert. Add that to their societal impact: They not only brought their language and culture, but they reduced urbanity in the region and increased reliance on nomadism, and they broke up key trade networks in the region and introduced even more instability than already existed. Avoid their arrival, and Ifriqiya and the Maghreb remain greener, with more farms and more cities, more reliance on Berber languages and more opportunities to have larger concentrated populations with higher numbers of specialists.

Basically just averting the Banu Hilal in and of itself gets you halfway to what you're going for.

The Banu Hilal truly did great damage to the Maghreb. In fact, as I think about it, it might be possible for the Maghreb to become part of the European sphere simply with the Banu Hilal being diverted elsewhere.

 

[Planet of Hats]

The Banu Hilal truly did great damage to the Maghreb. In fact, as I think about it, it might be possible for the Maghreb to become part of the European sphere simply with the Banu Hilal being diverted elsewhere.

Averting the Banu Hilal is a big enough POD to completely alter the makeup of North Africa - physically, culturally and structurally.

 

[Lampiao]

I've started planning a TL in which the Maghreb is part of the Islamic world but culturally western with a Romance language being the primary language alongside Berber and to a lesser extent, Arabic.

If you shift Arabic and Berber, you're pretty much describing OTL here. The Maghreb os largely Francophone and Francophile. A little less than half of the population can speak French and if you only count people with some degree of education these numbers can easily go to a large majority.

 

[Euskadi Herria]

If you shift Arabic and Berber, you're pretty much describing OTL here. The Maghreb os largely Francophone and Francophile. A little less than half of the population can speak French and if you only count people with some degree of education these numbers can easily go to a large majority.

When I was talking about a romance language, I was referencing African Romance.

 

[Falecius]

I do not know of this ruling, it is considered haraam in my opinion on the basis of Hanbali fiqh any sort of lie.. For instance, income taxation or the sales tax (maqs) is considered haraam, however committing deception and not paying a tax is also a sin and one should instead pay the tax and allow the sin of the tax to be transferred to the ruler. Same for mandatory conscription or similar obligatory actions imposed by both Islamic and kuffar states. A lie thus toward a Buddhist who has legally no coherent respect in Sharia is entitled to not be lied to as the lie is still a sin for the Muslim, no matter to whom it is directed or in which land it is enunciated. In my experience also, by this view, all madhab or schools of ruling, declare that such practices as taqiyyah are also haraam.

You have more detailed knowledg on the topic, but my understanding is that taqiya is generally considered permissible whenever the alternative would be directly harmful, fo instance if a Muslim in non-believer territory would risk persecution, he would be permitted to temporarily conceal his belief for safety.
In Sunni jurisprudence, however, this the exception, not the rule. Under ordinary circumstances, Islam enjoins sincerity. Shi'as often take a different approach whereby concealment of belief can be the right thing to do in some circumstances (as opposed to a lesser evil). In general, however, Muslim authorities tend to show some pragmatism on this point.

 

[kholieken]

To be Western, Maghreb had to be Christian. Their relations with other Muslim is irrelevant. You just turn them into Canarian Guanches or Aztecs.

 

[snassni2]

Why not keep them Sunni but more influenced by Alandalus . Later on it could lead to a new Madhab. Without the Banu Hilal, the moroccan dynasties would be economicaly more stable and stronger. Which means they could support Alandalus against the christians.
As language they could develop a mix of pre-hilalian arabic dialect, amazigh, hebrew and latin. The used script would be arabic but including new letters like in OTL Farsi or Urdu.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

You have more detailed knowledg on the topic, but my understanding is that taqiya is generally considered permissible whenever the alternative would be directly harmful, fo instance if a Muslim in non-believer territory would risk persecution, he would be permitted to temporarily conceal his belief for safety.
In Sunni jurisprudence, however, this the exception, not the rule. Under ordinary circumstances, Islam enjoins sincerity. Shi'as often take a different approach whereby concealment of belief can be the right thing to do in some circumstances (as opposed to a lesser evil). In general, however, Muslim authorities tend to show some pragmatism on this point.

Some forms of hiyyal/deception are allowed. However, taqiyah which is dissimulation, intentional concealment of one’s belief is not allowed. For instance, if tawheed is illegal in one’s country and you must worship idols, then you are not allowed to perform taqiyah or Kitman and perform these actions with the goal to survive. One who is forced is removed of the fault of the sin, however he should do it with the outward resistance to it. Yet, taqiyah entails a person to with his mouth confess belief in these idols for protection or kitman you proclaim belief in these idols for an offensive goal of subversion.

 

[Falecius]

Some forms of hiyyal/deception are allowed. However, taqiyah which is dissimulation, intentional concealment of one’s belief is not allowed. For instance, if tawheed is illegal in one’s country and you must worship idols, then you are not allowed to perform taqiyah or Kitman and perform these actions with the goal to survive. One who is forced is removed of the fault of the sin, however he should do it with the outward resistance to it. Yet, taqiyah entails a person to with his mouth confess belief in these idols for protection or kitman you proclaim belief in these idols for an offensive goal of subversion.

But it would be permissible to abstain to make one's Muslim faith apparent in a non-Muslim country, where being recognized as a Muslim would entail inherent danger. That is, concealing faith without pretending to willingly worship idols (the latter being obviously a sin if done willingly). I am under the impression that there is some degree of leeway in such cases within the range of fiqh opinions.

 

[Jürgen]

To be Western, Maghreb had to be Christian. Their relations with other Muslim is irrelevant. You just turn them into Canarian Guanches or Aztecs.

No the thing which enable a country to be part of the West historical was whether they could intermarry with the European nobility and royalty. So we need a Maghreb where the local rulers practice monogamous marriages and they’re willing to send their daughters abroad to marry Christian rulers. It was how Russia integrated into the West.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

But it would be permissible to abstain to make one's Muslim faith apparent in a non-Muslim country, where being recognized as a Muslim would entail inherent danger. That is, concealing faith without pretending to willingly worship idols (the latter being obviously a sin if done willingly). I am under the impression that there is some degree of leeway in such cases within the range of fiqh opinions.

There is some leeway sure. My opinion and that if most scholars is that in a dangerous land, one is not obliged to go and openly declare. No, it is obvious that in such places one may simply leave things unspoken and avoid religious discussion. However, taqiyah is not necessarily this, taqiyah often entails what in normal situation is a lie, but due to the cause becomes a positive action. In Sunni Islam, there is no legal means to which one can do this. However, if the cause is understandable, then one may say that this is not a grave sin. Nevertheless, the ruling is that taqiyah, intentional concealing through lies is completely haraam as a general rule.

Within the Shi’a and or Khawarij-Shurha views however, their sects permit taqiyah and kitman. Some more radical than others, some like the Nusayriyyah/Alawites take taqiyah to the level that any sort of admission of religious belief is a breach of taqiyah. Kitman in some ways is the more feared form of hiyyal in the sense that it is an offensive maneuver whereby the person uses this deception to gain certain positions to sufficiently subvert a particular land or group. This was used by Khawarij through its history and I believe Shi’a reject at least its general usage.