YEAFT: What can Argentina get instead of Veinticinco de Mayo?

[Father Maryland]

Argentina might pay for all 3 ships in corned beef instead of cash. I'm only half joking. Saudi Arabia paid for its Tornados in oil and I half-remember reading that another arms purchase was paid for in apples.

In 1952 Brazil and the UK did a deal where the UK supplied Meteor Fighter Jets in return for a large number of cotton bales.

 

[McPherson]

I don't know about any engineering issues, I thought it was a mixture of massive cost and schedule blowouts, low military capability for the cost and effort as well as the re-focusing of British defence policy away from Out of Area operations to NATO roles that lead to abandonment of the Lion's helo rebuild.

Rotors, turbines and other issues.

As for life, there is a massive difference between what a 1st tier navy expects from hull life and what a 2nd/3rd tier expects. The RN won't pay to keep a 15 year old hull running for 10-15 more years if the weapons and sensors are not up to scratch; its better to build a new ship with all the new stuff for a bit more money that will get a full 30 years. This was a major problem in the 60s with the switch from guns to missiles. In contrast a 3rd tier navy struggles to find a big wad of cash to buy a brand new ship, but can find a constant trickle of cash to pay for (low cost) crew to keep the maintenance intensive ships running. The postwar built Lion might last for 20+ years in Argentine service.

Agreed about the guns to missiles changeover. Khrushchev solved his problem by cancelling the whole Red Navy program for a fleet of gun armed light cruisers and sent them off to build a new generation of ракета вооруженных крейсеров. The OSAs were first fruits.

If the hull vibration problem was never solved on the Lion, that might be a non-starter.

Anyway, the replacement timeframe is 1968-1972 and it appears that about then, just maybe, the Russians are on to something. Would not be the first time they changed the way navies think.

 

[GDIS Pathe]

In 1952 Brazil and the UK did a deal where the UK supplied Meteor Fighter Jets in return for a large number of cotton bales.

Didn’t Indonesia pay for a few dozen Sukhois with palm oil a few years back?

 

[Father Maryland]

Didn’t Indonesia pay for a few dozen Sukhois with palm oil a few years back?

I believe your right. And I think Venezuela paid for some kit with Petrol fairly recently.

It's not that uncommon for poorer states to arrange what are essentially barter deals for military gear. I think the Soviets used to do it at lot with 3rd world allies.

 

[Riain]

It's not that uncommon for poorer states to arrange what are essentially barter deals for military gear. I think the Soviets used to do it at lot with 3rd world allies.

Not just poor countries. People often poo-pooh the political aspects of major arms sales, the readiness to offset a military purchase with a commodity sale and other side deals can be the key to establishing an enduring strategic partnership. The problem lies in cutting down your only forest for a fleet of planes that doesn't perform as advertised.

 

[Father Maryland]

Not just poor countries. People often poo-pooh the political aspects of major arms sales, the readiness to offset a military purchase with a commodity sale and other side deals can be the key to establishing an enduring strategic partnership. The problem lies in cutting down your only forest for a fleet of planes that doesn't perform as advertised.

Well yes a lot of large arms deals are tied into or related to larger trade deals. But generally poorer nations that lack hard currency are the ones to do more or less straight barter deals of X commodity for Y military equipment.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

The Dutch had to remove the Terrier system from their cruisers and return them to the U.S. before the sale could be completed. The transferred as straight 6" gun CL.

Although the plan was to fit Terrier to both ships only De Zeven Provinciën was so fitted and instead of reinstating the 6" guns that were removed it was replaced by a hangar and flight deck for Sea King helicopters.

 

[SwampTiger]

Although the plan was to fit Terrier to both ships only De Zeven Provinciën was so fitted and instead of reinstating the 6" guns that were removed it was replaced by a hangar and flight deck for Sea King helicopters.

Could De Grasse be used, with a Terrier/Tartar/Sea Dart launcher aft, 4 X Exocet, and a helipad amidships? This is a modified variant of Colbert's last variant. The 57mm would be an adequate CDS, and it can still carry 2 X 2 127/54 DP guns. It had additional space in the double bridge added for its last deployment. This could be converted to a fleet command center/Admiral's quarters. It was stricken and scrapped in 1974.

 

[CV12Hornet]

Could De Grasse be used, with a Terrier/Tartar/Sea Dart launcher aft, 4 X Exocet, and a helipad amidships? This is a modified variant of Colbert's last variant. The 57mm would be an adequate CDS, and it can still carry 2 X 2 127/54 DP guns. It had additional space in the double bridge added for its last deployment. This could be converted to a fleet command center/Admiral's quarters. It was stricken and scrapped in 1974.

If you’re buying French just stick Masurca on it.

 

[Jukra]

Not a chance. Not in the 1960s.

The various 2nd tier navies with carriers managed to get them for fire sale prices. The only people they had to outbid were the breaking yards.

There's also the refit costs, which have to have been substantial.

 

[Jukra]

Could De Grasse be used, with a Terrier/Tartar/Sea Dart launcher aft, 4 X Exocet, and a helipad amidships? This is a modified variant of Colbert's last variant. The 57mm would be an adequate CDS, and it can still carry 2 X 2 127/54 DP guns. It had additional space in the double bridge added for its last deployment. This could be converted to a fleet command center/Admiral's quarters. It was stricken and scrapped in 1974.

De Grasse surely must have had enough facilities for a flagship, it was used as command ship for French nuclear tests, after all. Historically Argentina purchased Sea Dart, after all. Here's a photo in it's last incarnation:

 

[Whiteshore]

If there were three complete Alaskas, I'd say that would be a possibility, sell one of each to Argentina, Brazil and Chile, mirroring what they did with the Brooklyn/St. Louis-class CLs.

In such a scenario, how long do you think would they operate the Alaskas? Considering the first-generation dreadnoughts they would probably replace were operated until the 1950s, I could see the Alaskas being operated until the 1980s or 90s.

 

[Jukra]

In such a scenario, how long do you think would they operate the Alaskas? Considering the first-generation dreadnoughts they would probably replace were operated until the 1950s, I could see the Alaskas being operated until the 1980s or 90s.

Most significantly, would there be a chance where an Alaska single handedly saves the Malvinas becoming one of the most celebrated and revered warships of modern times?

 

[Riain]

Most significantly, would there be a chance where an Alaska single handedly saves the Malvinas becoming one of the most celebrated and revered warships of modern times?

It would struggle against the 3 SSNs operating in the area.

 

[Jukra]

(an Argentinian Alaska)

It would struggle against the 3 SSNs operating in the area.

Should have added a smiley

 

[juanml82]

It would struggle against the 3 SSNs operating in the area.

It could be beached in Stanley and used as a fixed gun plataform to defend that particular spot. But if the Argentine Navy didn't do that with the Belgrano, why would they do it with Alaska? Chances are, it gets sunk by submarines.

 

[McPherson]

It could be beached in Stanley and used as a fixed gun plataform to defend that particular spot. But if the Argentine Navy didn't do that with the Belgrano, why would they do it with Alaska? Chances are, it gets sunk by submarines.

More likely it would be Yamato 2.0.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Could De Grasse be used, with a Terrier/Tartar/Sea Dart launcher aft, 4 X Exocet, and a helipad amidships? This is a modified variant of Colbert's last variant. The 57mm would be an adequate CDS, and it can still carry 2 X 2 127/54 DP guns. It had additional space in the double bridge added for its last deployment. This could be converted to a fleet command center/Admiral's quarters. It was stricken and scrapped in 1974.

IIRC no.

Unlike her half-sister Colbert it wasn't possible to fit Mascura to De Grasse because of the internal subdivision of the hull. So it wouldn't be possible to fit Terrier, Tatar or Sea Dart either.

 

[SwampTiger]

IIRC no.

Unlike her half-sister Colbert it wasn't possible to fit Mascura to De Grasse because of the internal subdivision of the hull. So it wouldn't be possible to fit Terrier, Tatar or Sea Dart either.

How is it different? I am not a fan of Masurca, too few platforms/operators. How does the entire mount/magazine/machinery differ/compare between Masurca and the Mk11/13 Tartar? I see the Masurca system weighs @ 450 metric tons, but have no info on dimensions.The four aft 127/54 1948 mounts of De Grasse/Colbert weighed 49 metric tons each. The mount could be moved more amidships if needed.

Could Roland be marinized? Yes I know it is a few years late.

My ideal, and unlikely choice, would be two squadrons of F-101C Voodoo with Exocet/AS-30/Roland adapted to the rotary weapons bay.

 

[McPherson]

IIRC no.

Unlike her half-sister Colbert it wasn't possible to fit Mascura to De Grasse because of the internal subdivision of the hull. So it wouldn't be possible to fit Terrier, Tatar or Sea Dart either.

Navy's Blue Ridge Class Command Ships Once Had This Wacky …

There is always a way.

Might be goofy but it is possible and plausible.

How is it different? I am not a fan of Masurca, too few platforms/operators. How does the entire mount/magazine/machinery differ/compare between Masurca and the Mk11/13 Tartar? I see the Masurca system weighs @ 450 metric tons, but have no info on dimensions.The four aft 127/54 1948 mounts of De Grasse/Colbert weighed 49 metric tons each. The mount could be moved more amidships if needed.

Could Roland be marinized? Yes I know it is a few years late.

My ideal, and unlikely choice, would be two squadrons of F-101C Voodoo with Exocet/AS-30/Roland adapted to the rotary weapons bay.

Roland has some possible problems as it is very short ranged. Is there a better option here? ​