Malê Rising

[xsampa]

I've been rereading Decades of Darkness, and what strikes out at me about the Russian Federation is how much of a post-Westphalian entity it is. It is comprised of the Russian Empire proper, special [autonomous] regions, and federated states. To further complicate the matter, some federated states are under the rule of the Tsar as head of state, and some still have local rulers.

 

[xsampa]

One thing I appreciate about this timeline is the much wider Overton window than OTL. Without getting into OTL politics too much, I can say there are more options, from the socially conservative, religious, but welfarist narodniki, to the worker-run syndicates of Uruguay, from the Futurist parties of Greater France, to the neofeudalist Kingdom of Sweden.

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

Was the fate of the pygmies, San, khoisan, and Negritos ever discussed in the timeline.

I don't believe I dealt with this topic in detail, but in post 6368, there was discussion of a customary land rights movement among the San peoples that resulted in a judgment similar to the Central Kalahari Game Reserve case of OTL.

One thing I appreciate about this timeline is the much wider Overton window than OTL. Without getting into OTL politics too much, I can say there are more options, from the socially conservative, religious, but welfarist narodniki, to the worker-run syndicates of Uruguay, from the Futurist parties of Greater France, to the neofeudalist Kingdom of Sweden.

That's in part a function of the world being more multipolar and never being dominated by a "with us or against us" struggle between two hegemonic ideologies. There's much more free space for countries, regions and local collectives to mix and match and experiment.

 

[Goldenarchangel]

You know I cannot help but think about doing an RP in universe where on an alternate history forum someone writes a “what if Paulo Abacar never existed timeline “ which is basically OTL with all its unpleasant events and various posters decrying it as “unrealistic “ and “edgy “ it is

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

You know I cannot help but think about doing an RP in universe where on an alternate history forum someone writes a “what if Paulo Abacar never existed timeline “ which is basically OTL with all its unpleasant events and various posters decrying it as “unrealistic “ and “edgy “ it is

It could get even more baroque than that. A great deal of the Abacarist influence ITTL is attenuated, and citizens of the Malêverse who don't have OTL to compare it to might not even realize that the influence is there. So one member of the alternate history forum posts a "no Abacar" timeline in which a few things change in 19th-century West Africa but the world is otherwise much the same, and then another member counters with a timeline that is basically OTL and is attacked for his excessive Afrocentrism and Great Man theorizing. "Come on, I like a well-written dystopia as much as the next guy, but not even Jesus, let alone Abacar, could be responsible for turning the world into that much of a crapsack."

BTW, if you do put something together along either of these lines, I'd love to see it.

 

[Goldenarchangel]

It could get even more baroque than that. A great deal of the Abacarist influence ITTL is attenuated, and citizens of the Malêverse who don't have OTL to compare it to might not even realize that the influence is there. So one member of the alternate history forum posts a "no Abacar" timeline in which a few things change in 19th-century West Africa but the world is otherwise much the same, and then another member counters with a timeline that is basically OTL and is attacked for his excessive Afrocentrism and Great Man theorizing. "Come on, I like a well-written dystopia as much as the next guy, but not even Jesus, let alone Abacar, could be responsible for turning the world into that much of a crapsack."

BTW, if you do put something together along either of these lines, I'd love to see it.

I will see what I can do . I may very well make a role play thread somewhere so everyone can join the fun . Actually I can see that the Male verse might have an in universe alternate history cliche of “No Abacar” timelines with varying degrees of divergences.


Also people ITTL will probably think OTL nazis are over the top imperial party expies who were too evil and couldn’t possibly rise to power

 

[Goldenarchangel]

Okay it’s been posted here . Hope it’s enjoyable

 

[Goldenarchangel]

Oops very sorry but added the wrong link to the above post and here I was thinking nobody wanted to be part of this sorry of this seemed like a joke or a prank.

here is the actual link

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/a-world-without-abacars-mãlverse-rp.457429/

 

[xsampa]

How would people from OTL argue out detailed criticisms of the ideologies of Malê Rising? After all, one man's utopia is another man's dystopia.

 

[xsampa]

What criteria must a state fulfill to be represented as a sovereign state in the Consistory?

 

[Richard Osborne]

I just realised that one of the most important differences between TTL and OTL is a rather large lack of ethnic cleansing and genocide post-1900 asides from East Africa, Congo, and Hungary.

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

How would people from OTL argue out detailed criticisms of the ideologies of Malê Rising? After all, one man's utopia is another man's dystopia.

The most obvious critique of post-Westphalianism - and one frequently made in-universe - is the inefficiency and legal uncertainty created by overlapping jurisdictions. Another, especially in the more localist states, is that devolution can facilitate petty tyranny - the national government won't oppress you, sure, but who'll save you from the mayor and chief of police? And collective autonomy for minorities and cross-border peoples may be well and good, but what about the people who are born into those groups but who want to opt out as individuals? These have all been endlessly debated and various fixes have been implemented (human rights laws at the national and international levels, for instance), but none of the fixes are perfect and some carry problems of their own.

Also, the Malêverse's ethical systems, like any others, can have harsh consequences for those who run afoul of them. For instance, as I've mentioned, a system of sexual ethics based on consent, hygiene, and mutual responsibility may seem like a good thing (and mostly is one), but you really don't want to be a swinger or a teen parent.

What criteria must a state fulfill to be represented as a sovereign state in the Consistory?

The legal right to make treaties on at least one subject. The Consistory's purpose is to negotiate and administer treaties, so the ability to conduct that kind of diplomacy is the qualification.

I just realised that one of the most important differences between TTL and OTL is a rather large lack of ethnic cleansing and genocide post-1900 asides from East Africa, Congo, and Hungary.

That's one of the positive things about post-Westphalianism - that it allowed mutually satisfactory solutions to conflicts that might have led to such things in worlds where sovereignty and the idea of the body politic were more zero-sum.

 

[xsampa]

"a politically engaged citizenry, good social indicators and an absence of deep poverty combined with relatively low income and slow growth – on a continental scale."

Isn't this the Kerala model?

 

[Goldenarchangel]

I am working on a an article about the history of biotechnology and gene tech in the MR universe and I have a few questions:

1. Who discovered antibiotics ITTL and for that matter what would be their name here

2. What countries would be in a leading role in those fields

3. Has cloning of animals been tried ?

And one last thing unrelated to the above , is there a list for nuclear powers in the Male verse

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

"a politically engaged citizenry, good social indicators and an absence of deep poverty combined with relatively low income and slow growth – on a continental scale."

Isn't this the Kerala model?

It's certainly that IOTL; the usual referent ITTL is the African Great Lakes commonwealths (Kerala does have good social indicators ITTL but is somewhat richer).

I am working on a an article about the history of biotechnology and gene tech in the MR universe and I have a few questions:

1. Who discovered antibiotics ITTL and for that matter what would be their name here

2. What countries would be in a leading role in those fields

3. Has cloning of animals been tried ?

And one last thing unrelated to the above , is there a list for nuclear powers in the Male verse

1. The answers to both of those questions are pretty wide open. Alexander Fleming was born well after the POD and I never named the person who would take his place ITTL, so you can use your judgment in deciding who the inventor is and where he or she works. You can also use your judgment as to the name, although "antibiotic" is a fairly natural choice.

2. In Europe: France, Germany and the UK; in Asia, the Ottoman Union, Japan, China and India [1]; in Africa, Ilorin; in the Americas, the US. Those are the historical leaders and have the most prominent medical schools and research facilities, but more recently, there have been research projects all over the world (some in cooperation with the leading universities and some being carried on independently).

3. I would assume yes - the knowledge is there, and animal cloning is a fairly obvious experiment.

4. Current nuclear-armed powers include the US, UK, France, Germany, the Ottoman Union, Russia, Persia, China, Japan, Nusantara, India, Australasia, Brazil, Bolivia, Mexico and Nigeria [ETA: as mentioned in post 7241, Egypt and Ethiopia too], and there is also a small nuclear stockpile controlled jointly by the Court of Arbitration and the Consistory Security Section. Nuclear energy is part of the mix almost everywhere.

[1] Referring to both the Republic of India and the Indian Union as a whole.

 

[xsampa]

I never expected to see Bolivia, Nigeria and Mexico (!) on the list given that these nations seemed pretty unassuming. Mexico in particular, because of its close proximity to the US, which is less prone to interventionism and the like ITTL, still has a commitment to ensuring stability in the Americas.

 

[xsampa]

Also, on AnalyticalEngine's world map (Part 1), I noticed that there are different types of autonomous designations, such as federated states, dominions, vassals, and autonomous areas. How much autonomy/sovereignty do each of these areas have?

 

[Goldenarchangel]

I never expected to see Bolivia, Nigeria and Mexico (!) on the list given that these nations seemed pretty unassuming. Mexico in particular, because of its close proximity to the US, which is less prone to interventionism and the like ITTL, still has a commitment to ensuring stability in the Americas.

I was also surprised that Ethiopia, Egypt and the South African Union don’t have them but I guess in the former two’s case it’s because they rely on hydroelectric power .


Also no would mind if I add some video game ideas I had for MR (including some malevied versions of OTL video games)

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

I never expected to see Bolivia, Nigeria and Mexico (!) on the list given that these nations seemed pretty unassuming. Mexico in particular, because of its close proximity to the US, which is less prone to interventionism and the like ITTL, still has a commitment to ensuring stability in the Americas.

Mexico has an outsized sense of nationalism, both because of its early 20th-century revolutionary history and because it's right next door to an Anglo great power, and still remembers the last American intervention even if it was a century ago (especially since it had only been half a century at the time the Mexican nuclear program began). Sure, the US is a good neighbor now, but why not have a deterrent just in case?

Bolivia is one of the two leading states of the Andean region, an indigenous-dominated republic in a sea of criollo/mestizo societies, and at the time it began its weaponization program, its neighborhood was still a bit rough.

The Union of Nigeria is one of the great powers.

In any event, none of the current nuclear-armed countries have used their weapons in anger - the two countries that have done so are no longer nuclear powers - and by now they're considered increasingly anachronistic, but for the moment everyone has their reasons for keeping them.

Also, on AnalyticalEngine's world map (Part 1), I noticed that there are different types of autonomous designations, such as federated states, dominions, vassals, and autonomous areas. How much autonomy/sovereignty do each of these areas have?

It varies depending on the terms agreed between the regions in question and their sponsor countries; there's no set standard. A lot of the nomenclature also depends on the historical relationship between the parties and the identity of the nominal head of state (especially for dominions) rather than the amount of actual self-rule. In general, the autonomous areas, which are actually part of another country rather than having a looser affiliation, are less independent than the others, but there's plenty of overlap.

I was also surprised that Ethiopia, Egypt and the South African Union don’t have them but I guess in the former two’s case it’s because they rely on hydroelectric power .

Also no would mind if I add some video game ideas I had for MR (including some malevied versions of OTL video games)

Actually, the reason why Ethiopia and Egypt aren't on the list is that I forgot to put them there - you can safely add them. The South African Union never invested in a nuclear program because its conflicts and threats have historically been mostly internal, and because it's a loose confederation that doesn't have a large federal military force. It does have nuclear plants as part of its power grid, but no weapons.

And go right ahead - you may also want to check out post 6413 if you haven't done so already.

 

[xsampa]

Is there anything OTL comparable to the Spanish or Japanese dominions, or the Bornu federated states?